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While reading the Computerbase review, I noticed a strange anomaly with Ryzen's DX12 performance.

Source: https://www.computerbase.de/2017-03/amd-ryzen-1800x-1700x-1700-test/4/#diagramm-battlefield-1-dx11-multiplayer-fps

7700K vs 1800X:

Battlefield 1 DX11: 116 vs 122
Battlefield 1 DX12: 127 vs 90
Deus Ex: MD DX11: 87 vs 80
Deus Ex: MD DX12: 83 vs 63
RotTR DX11: 152 vs 135
RotTR DX12: 168 vs 117
Total War: W DX11: 43 vs 40
Total War: W DX12: 42 vs 30

The 1800X loses quite a bit of performance in DX12 compared to the 7700K. It's obvious that DX12 is just not doing it for a new architecture without any form of optimization.
Reviews that look only at DX12 performance will be biased towards thinking the gaming performance of Ryzen sucks.

That aside, Ryzen is putting in a wonderful performance in Dishonored 2, F1 2016, Shadow Warrior 2 and Watch Dogs 2. Bodes well for the future.

AMD is already aware that many games lack the optimization needed for Ryzen and is working with some 300 or so devs to correct the issue.

There is an inconsistency as Ryzen should for all intents and purposes perform on par with 5960X, yet there are situations where it falls behind by as much as 20%. Some speculate it has something to do with AMD's CCX and SMT implementation and that optimization will be needed to address that.

ultima_trev wrote:

AMD is already aware that many games lack the optimization needed for Ryzen and is working with some 300 or so devs to correct the issue.

There is an inconsistency as Ryzen should for all intents and purposes perform on par with 5960X, yet there are situations where it falls behind by as much as 20%. Some speculate it has something to do with AMD's CCX and SMT implementation and that optimization will be needed to address that.

Not really the problem I was trying to address. I was pointing to the fact that DX12 optimized games are no good on newer architectures. They're basically only good for a short period of time, meaning that future platforms are kinda better of with DX11 games.

That is extremely odd. Switching from DX11 to DX12 in the same game shouldn't tank Ryzen's performance like that, let alone by so much while Intel gains. I wonder if DX12 is spawning more threads and if those are getting assigned to parked cores...

Parked cores? Is that still a thing?

Rza79 wrote:

While reading the Computerbase review, I noticed a strange anomaly with Ryzen's DX12 performance.

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The 1800X loses quite a bit of performance in DX12 compared to the 7700K. It's obvious that DX12 is just not doing it for a new architecture without any form of optimization.

That aside, Ryzen is putting in a wonderful performance in Dishonored 2, F1 2016, Shadow Warrior 2 and Watch Dogs 2. Bodes well for the future.

I believe a colloquial understanding with DX12 is the main optimization being inherent within the API so as to call less upon the CPU.

It seems like something else is going on with these benchmark results. Is it possible DX12 is being set and yet the game is deferring to some fail safe where its not seeing a CPU string it recognizes?

There are many layers to power saving on CPUs. Even if it wasn't activating a sleeping core Windows could be swapping threads between cores running in lower power states. It could also be swapping threads back and forth between each CCX module (4+4 arrangement, a la Kentsfield in miniature). Lastly Windows is almost certainly unbalancing the threads, 2 for one core and 0 on another for example. Which is probably why THG saw performance usually increase when SMT was disabled.

Legend wrote:

I believe a colloquial understanding with DX12 is the main optimization being inherent within the API so as to call less upon the CPU.

It seems like something else is going on with these benchmark results. Is it possible DX12 is being set and yet the game is deferring to some fail safe where its not seeing a CPU string it recognizes?

DX12 is supposed to incur less overhead, but mostly it spreads the workload around instead of piling it onto a single thread.If DX12 used the CPU less then by that reasoning CPU performance would also affect the results less. So it would create the opposite effect. DX12 allows work locked to a single thread under DX11 to be spread across multiple threads and cores to distribute the workload. I have no idea how many threads and I assume it's game dependant.

Phoronix ran some linux gaming tests which takes Windows and DX12 out of the equation... the results weren't that good either. Though oddly at 4K resolution Ryzen would start beating the 7700K in two games.

I think a lot of what is being seen is just bad coding on the devs side. Ashes of the Singularity... a game that was built for DX12 and didn't add DX12 as an after thought like other games... shows a lot of gain on Ryzen.

Philldoe wrote:

I think a lot of what is being seen is just bad coding on the devs side. Ashes of the Singularity... a game that was built for DX12 and didn't add DX12 as an after thought like other games... shows a lot of gain on Ryzen.

Not from Tom's Hardware Guide it doesn't. It lags behind a 6900K by 30-40FPS in some tests... even at 1440p. If some other site shows it keeping pace in AotS I'd like to see it.

It's funny you use them as an example. There's a quote from the AotS devs stating they have zero optimization for Ryzen, but are excited about it and are already working on a patch to optimize for it.

“Oxide games is incredibly excited with what we are seeing from the Ryzen CPU. Using our Nitrous game engine, we are working to scale our existing and future game title performance to take full advantage of Ryzen and its eight-core, 16-thread architecture, and the results thus far are impressive. These optimizations are not yet available for Ryzen benchmarking. However, expect updates soon to enhance the performance of games like Ashes of the Singularity on Ryzen CPUs, as well as our future game releases.” - Brad Wardell, CEO Stardock and Oxide

From what I understand DX12 lowers the load on the CPU but in a poorly threaded manner; ergo with Ryzen focusing on multi thread rather than IPC it suffers. This will undeniably change in future updates given how the Xbox functions at a hardware level and MS's desire to sell to the PC gamers.

Now that Ryzen is out in the wild and people can test it however they like how long does everyone think it'll take for Ashes of the Singularity to fade away into obscurity? I mean, had anyone ever heard of Oxide Games before all of this got started? Personally I hope it happens soon. We saw from the Watch Dogs 2 test that Jeff ran in the review, using a bunch of threads isn't necessarily going to be some kind of magic bullet. With so many game developers speaking out in favor of a low level approach to development it's obviously a step in the right direction. I'm just hoping there will be a point in the not so distant future where the hype around increased multithreading in games fades away a bit.

Kougar wrote:

Philldoe wrote:

I think a lot of what is being seen is just bad coding on the devs side. Ashes of the Singularity... a game that was built for DX12 and didn't add DX12 as an after thought like other games... shows a lot of gain on Ryzen.

Not from Tom's Hardware Guide it doesn't. It lags behind a 6900K by 30-40FPS in some tests... even at 1440p. If some other site shows it keeping pace in AotS I'd like to see it.

It's funny you use them as an example. There's a quote from the AotS devs stating they have zero optimization for Ryzen, but are excited about it and are already working on a patch to optimize for it.

“Oxide games is incredibly excited with what we are seeing from the Ryzen CPU. Using our Nitrous game engine, we are working to scale our existing and future game title performance to take full advantage of Ryzen and its eight-core, 16-thread architecture, and the results thus far are impressive. These optimizations are not yet available for Ryzen benchmarking. However, expect updates soon to enhance the performance of games like Ashes of the Singularity on Ryzen CPUs, as well as our future game releases.” - Brad Wardell, CEO Stardock and Oxide

Internal test builds. Sorry I didn't specify.

zzz wrote:

From what I understand DX12 lowers the load on the CPU but in a poorly threaded manner; ergo with Ryzen focusing on multi thread rather than IPC it suffers. This will undeniably change in future updates given how the Xbox functions at a hardware level and MS's desire to sell to the PC gamers.

DX12 also allows things in DX to run in multiple threads that, didn't used to. Depending on the game, it can go either way.

Redocbew wrote:

Now that Ryzen is out in the wild and people can test it however they like how long does everyone think it'll take for Ashes of the Singularity to fade away into obscurity? I mean, had anyone ever heard of Oxide Games before all of this got started?

Why? It's a real game, so it is as valid as any other game. It also tends to be one of the better ones for scaling with hardware too. Out of all the games I've played it was the most demanding and pushed my old Titan Black to its very limit.

Redocbew wrote:

I mean, had anyone ever heard of Oxide Games before all of this got started?

Yes, because I follow Stardock and that team has high level talent from the Civ 5 team (including the lead graphics programmer,) possibly more big names I'm unaware of.

Considering they're pushing new tech faster than anyone and better than most, I'd rather not stop hearing about them.

Much of Ashes' popularity comes from being a spiritual successor to Supreme Commander, itself a notorious CPU hog, so it won't be going anywhere. The only things likely to push it out of the limelight are Star Citizen and Cyberpunk 2077, and both of those are a long way away from anything resembling a release.

There is something weird going on with that game's numbers. There's something off about the Kaby>Haswell numbers, too.

Then I realize it's DICE an EA and trust takes a hit.

The division can be added to the list of games having DX12 performance issues on Ryzen when combined with a nVidia card.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/6 ... _division/

Because Nvidia does not have a driver, or good driver support for Ryzen.

Until we know how much support Nvidia has put into getting Ryzen supported on their drivers. And how much AMD has assisted Nvidia in getting Ryzen and feedback. Etc.


To me it seems the difference between Intel and AMD on the CPU side should not be enough to cause such a problem. I don't write GPU drivers. Of course. So reality may, and probably will Differ.

Tests with RX 480 or other AMD GPUs will probably show far different results


At the end of the day, with Ryzen being out, Nvidia needs to get their driver done ASAP. AMD on the CPU side should have worked closer with Nvidia. But to late, Nvidia has the money to buy Ryzen CPUs and to pay the people to make a driver.

They should Hurry up. If they don't get it done before Vega it could lead to some absolutely hilarious results.

Rza79 wrote:

Not really the problem I was trying to address. I was pointing to the fact that DX12 optimized games are no good on newer architectures. They're basically only good for a short period of time, meaning that future platforms are kinda better of with DX11 games.

Several issues with this assumption. Ryzen is not a GPU, and Anandtech showed Nvidia performing poorly in dx9 games like Rocket league. The problem is Nvidia's drivers not being optimized for Ryzen. Dx12 could have downsides, but AMD handles it fine, and nvidia's issues are not limited to dx12. I've read in forums that nvidia is having issues with Bayonetta as well.

Nvidia just needs to do some optimization. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.