Personal computing discussed

Moderators: Flying Fox, morphine

 
DPete27
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Topic Author
Posts: 3053
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:50 pm
Location: Wisconsin, USA

When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:18 pm

I saw a commercial for the Dell XPS 13 last night and at the end they flash a picture of the "Intel 7th Generation Core Processor" and it got me thinking "jeez, getting close to 10 generations/years of Core i processors". When do you suppose Intel will retire the Core i "architecture"? Obviously Core i started with Nehalem in 2008. Cannon Lake is already set to be Intel's 8th generation Core i CPUs. I haven't heard of what Cannon Lake's successor will be though. Intel is making architecture changes every other year, so is the "Core ix-xxxx" little more than a naming scheme anymore, or does it represent a much larger "building block" from which interim architecture changes are based on?

[add] on Cannonlake successors, it looks like Ice lake then Tiger lake?
Last edited by DPete27 on Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Main: i5-3570K, ASRock Z77 Pro4-M, MSI RX480 8G, 500GB Crucial BX100, 2 TB Samsung EcoGreen F4, 16GB 1600MHz G.Skill @1.25V, EVGA 550-G2, Silverstone PS07B
HTPC: A8-5600K, MSI FM2-A75IA-E53, 4TB Seagate SSHD, 8GB 1866MHz G.Skill, Crosley D-25 Case Mod
 
Redocbew
Gold subscriber
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1210
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:44 am

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:39 pm

It would make sense from an engineers prospective to change the name once it gets far enough away from the original "core" chips to really be a different architecture. That's not always how marketing people operate though. :D
Do not meddle in the affairs of archers, for they are subtle and you won't hear them coming.
 
DPete27
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Topic Author
Posts: 3053
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:50 pm
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:48 pm

It also begs the question. Since AMD just launched Ryzen (which in my opinion is their attempt to reverse-engineer Intel Core i architecture), do you suppose Intel is poised to launch a ground-up new architecture at some point in the near future that would put AMD back in the ground?
Main: i5-3570K, ASRock Z77 Pro4-M, MSI RX480 8G, 500GB Crucial BX100, 2 TB Samsung EcoGreen F4, 16GB 1600MHz G.Skill @1.25V, EVGA 550-G2, Silverstone PS07B
HTPC: A8-5600K, MSI FM2-A75IA-E53, 4TB Seagate SSHD, 8GB 1866MHz G.Skill, Crosley D-25 Case Mod
 
SuperSpy
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2204
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 9:34 pm
Location: TR Forums

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:54 pm

Much more likely they will engage in some marketing campaign with a new fancy name, but it will be just another iteration of the current core series.

Brand-new architectures don't just pop up on a whim.
Desktop: i7-4790K @4.8 GHz | 32 GB | EVGA Gefore 1060 | Windows 10 x64
Laptop: i7 740QM | 12 GB | Mobility Radeon 5850 | Windows 10 x64
 
Anovoca
Silver subscriber
Gerbil XP
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:03 pm
Location: Green Bay, Wi

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:57 pm

The more amusing part of this discussion is that you called out the Core-i architecture when intel is still making Pentium chips. Based on their product model history, it is safe to say they may never re-brand the chip, only decrease the amount of varieties and slow down the tic-toc cycle while moving another arcitechture into production along side of it with its own niche to market towards.
A few minutes with me inside my van, Should be so beautiful if we can
-- Steven Wilson
 
tipoo
Gerbil
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:43 pm

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:57 pm

The moment when it doesn't have as much market cachet ;)

Or maybe the transition away from silicon, since they're not going to pull major YOY silicon gains anymore.
 
NTMBK
Gerbil Team Leader
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:21 am

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:03 pm

Round about when they file for Chapter 11.
 
Anovoca
Silver subscriber
Gerbil XP
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:03 pm
Location: Green Bay, Wi

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:05 pm

tipoo wrote:
The moment when it doesn't have as much market cachet ;)

Or maybe the transition away from silicon, since they're not going to pull major YOY silicon gains anymore.


Mass-produced photonic cores are only another, what, 25 years away from practical retail application?
A few minutes with me inside my van, Should be so beautiful if we can
-- Steven Wilson
 
Glorious
Gold subscriber
Grand Admiral Gerbil
Posts: 10033
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:09 pm

SuperSpy wrote:
Brand-new architectures don't just pop up on a whim.


Yeah, if they were to embark on that we'd have warnings at least 2 years before actual launch.
 
tipoo
Gerbil
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:43 pm

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:09 pm

Anovoca wrote:
tipoo wrote:
The moment when it doesn't have as much market cachet ;)

Or maybe the transition away from silicon, since they're not going to pull major YOY silicon gains anymore.


Mass-produced photonic cores are only another, what, 25 years away from practical retail application?




Is that how the Photino Birds match the sheer compute capability of the Xeelee?
 
derFunkenstein
Gold subscriber
Gerbil God
Posts: 23564
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:13 pm
Location: Comin' to you directly from the Mothership

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:11 pm

The only reason the Pentium brand got demoted to mean "budget" is because Intel ruined the name with Prescott and later Netburst chips. I would expect Core to stick around as a name as long as it's associated with good performance.
"And and if you start to bleed, stop wiping." -whm1974
 
tipoo
Gerbil
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:43 pm

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:14 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
The only reason the Pentium brand got demoted to mean "budget" is because Intel ruined the name with Prescott and later Netburst chips. I would expect Core to stick around as a name as long as it's associated with good performance.




I kind of hope rolling Core M back into the Core I brand backfires on them in that way.
 
Anovoca
Silver subscriber
Gerbil XP
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:03 pm
Location: Green Bay, Wi

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:19 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
The only reason the Pentium brand got demoted to mean "budget" is because Intel ruined the name with Prescott and later Netburst chips. I would expect Core to stick around as a name as long as it's associated with good performance.



Pentium has made a comeback. Once all the people that jumped ship to the i3 for web browsing pcs realized that the Pentium processors were running circles around them in single threaded applications. So i guess if anything maybe expect intel to drop the i3 and load up a new chip with the i9 moniker with even MORE CORZZZZ.
A few minutes with me inside my van, Should be so beautiful if we can
-- Steven Wilson
 
srg86
Gerbil Team Leader
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:57 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:21 pm

DPete27 wrote:
Obviously Core i started with Nehalem in 2008.


Core i branding may have started then, but the micro-architecture family goes all the way back through Nehalem, Core 2, Pentium M, P II/III all the way back to the P6 of the Pentium Pro from 1995. Though it's probably almost unrecognizable compared to those older iterations.

The last time Intel tried something new, was Netburst, and look at how well that went.

And AMD Zen is so similar to "Core i", it seems that this is the natural path the developments have taken. Both AMD and Intel have had Netburst/Bulldozer moments now.
Intel Core i7 4790K, Z97, 16GB RAM, 128GB m4 SSD, 480GB M500 SSD, 500GB WD Vel, Intel HD4600, Corsair HX650, Fedora x64.
Thinkpad T460p, Intel Core i5 6440HQ, 8GB RAM, 512GB SSD, Intel HD 530 IGP, Fedora x64, Win 10 x64.
 
Vhalidictes
Gold subscriber
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1452
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:32 pm
Location: Paragon City, RI

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:22 pm

Redocbew wrote:
It would make sense from an engineers prospective to change the name once it gets far enough away from the original "core" chips to really be a different architecture. That's not always how marketing people operate though. :D


Both Sandy Bridge and Broadwell were good opportunities to re-brand. I agree that Marketing is really more in charge of that anyways.
 
Vhalidictes
Gold subscriber
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1452
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:32 pm
Location: Paragon City, RI

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:25 pm

Anovoca wrote:
tipoo wrote:
The moment when it doesn't have as much market cachet ;)

Or maybe the transition away from silicon, since they're not going to pull major YOY silicon gains anymore.


Mass-produced photonic cores are only another, what, 25 years away from practical retail application?


My bet is on Germanium in the near future because it's a substantially similar process. Of course, one problem with that is the cost.
 
DPete27
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Topic Author
Posts: 3053
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:50 pm
Location: Wisconsin, USA

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 2:28 pm

Anovoca wrote:
The more amusing part of this discussion is that you called out the Core-i architecture when intel is still making Pentium chips.

derFunkenstein wrote:
The only reason the Pentium brand got demoted to mean "budget" is because Intel ruined the name with Prescott and later Netburst chips. I would expect Core to stick around as a name as long as it's associated with good performance.

Both good points. So the "Core i" moniker is indeed just a name these days.
Main: i5-3570K, ASRock Z77 Pro4-M, MSI RX480 8G, 500GB Crucial BX100, 2 TB Samsung EcoGreen F4, 16GB 1600MHz G.Skill @1.25V, EVGA 550-G2, Silverstone PS07B
HTPC: A8-5600K, MSI FM2-A75IA-E53, 4TB Seagate SSHD, 8GB 1866MHz G.Skill, Crosley D-25 Case Mod
 
ludi
Darth Gerbil
Posts: 7188
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:47 pm
Location: Sunny Colorado front range

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:18 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
My bet is on Germanium in the near future because it's a substantially similar process. Of course, one problem with that is the cost.

How about the leakage? Some of the first discrete transistors were germanium, and equivalents can still be purchased from NTE for repairing vintage electronics, but they were quickly replaced by silicon due to poor efficiency.
Abacus Model 2.5 | Quad-Row FX with 256 Cherry Red Slider Beads | Applewood Frame | Water Cooling by Brita Filtration
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 48766
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:53 pm

There's apparently some research into reviving the use of germanium to take us beyond 7nm:

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/5335 ... d-silicon/
https://phys.org/news/2014-12-germanium ... vices.html

The sense I'm getting is that the switch from germanium to silicon back in the early days was more due to silicon being easier to work with from a manufacturing standpoint, than with any inherent advantage in electrical characteristics.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Vhalidictes
Gold subscriber
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1452
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:32 pm
Location: Paragon City, RI

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 4:53 pm

ludi wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
My bet is on Germanium in the near future because it's a substantially similar process. Of course, one problem with that is the cost.

How about the leakage? Some of the first discrete transistors were germanium, and equivalents can still be purchased from NTE for repairing vintage electronics, but they were quickly replaced by silicon due to poor efficiency.


My understanding is that current designs are actually alloyed with silicon. Most sites don't make the distinction, though.
 
Chrispy_
Gold subscriber
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3973
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: Europe, most frequently London.

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:58 pm

Intel 7th Generation Core Processor


7th = Kaby Lake, 7000-series
6th = Skylake, 6000-series
5th = Broadwell, 5000-series
4th = Haswell, 4000-series
3rd = Ivy Bridge, 3000-series
2nd = Sandy Bridge. 2000-series
1st = Westmere (Nehalem-C), Core i3-530 to i7-990X

So what does that make the rest?

0th = Nehalem, Core i5-750 to i7-975
-1th = Penryn/Yorkfield C2D E8xxx and C2Q Q9xxx
-2th = Conroe/Kentsfield C2D E6xxx and C2Q Q6XXX

And yeah, before that was the Intel "Bulldozer" AKA Pentium 4 Willamette/Northwood etc. Good job AMD watched this long-pipeline monster tank horribly and didn't make one of their own. Oh. Nevermind, Ryzen is here, everything's okay again a mere 15 years later....
Congratulations, you've noticed that this year's signature is based on outdated internet memes; CLICK HERE NOW to experience this unforgettable phenomenon. This sentence is just filler and as irrelevant as my signature.
 
Kougar
Silver subscriber
Gerbil Jedi
Posts: 1922
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:21 am

The OP's question is a good one. I've been wondering when Intel will make a large change to its uArch design. "Core" was the original architecture behind Conroe right up until Nehalem, which gave us the second performance inflection point by adding the IMC's to the processor. It's been a long time since a new architecture has brought across the board performance gains and it feels like we're past due for at least something. Especially since Intel is once-again running above 4Ghz clockspeeds from flagship models down to cheap budget dualcores.

just brew it! wrote:
There's apparently some research into reviving the use of germanium to take us beyond 7nm:

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/5335 ... d-silicon/
https://phys.org/news/2014-12-germanium ... vices.html

The sense I'm getting is that the switch from germanium to silicon back in the early days was more due to silicon being easier to work with from a manufacturing standpoint, than with any inherent advantage in electrical characteristics.


I thought it was always a cost issue. Prices have varied wildly too but it's been trending upwards. In 2015 it was $1900 per kilogram. That said some articles are saying the cost trade-offs at sub 10-nm process nodes make it worthwhile.
 
the
Gold subscriber
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 822
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:26 am

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:35 pm

Reality is that Intel has been researching methods of improving instruction per clock techniques for awhile. They reportedly have a list of minor things that can be done to improve performance on the Core i architecture but will not implement due to it increasing power consumption disproportionately (i.e. lowering performance/watt). If Intel were to design a new architecture, some of these techniques have the chance of being rolled into it.

The issue Intel faces with the Core i heritage is that it has decades of software optimized for it. While Intel has been able to radically change the architecture over time to be unrecognizable from its origin, each evolution has continue to run legacy software well. Granted recompiling code for additional extensions and wider dispatch would provide a performance benefit, there is no regression from generation to generation of hardware. Compare this from AMD's transition from K10 to Bulldozer or Intel's previous Northwood to Prescott.

The other factor in releasing a new architecture is that it takes a long time to validate. Ryzen just hit the market but the ground work for it started in 2012. If Intel were to start today, it'd be ~2021 before it'd see the light of day. Intel is large enough to have a second architecture in development in a secret lab in parallel to their public roadmap so any new architecture before then is still possible, just unlikely. Intel has been rather leaky in terms of rumors due to recent layoffs and acquisitions. On that note....

(tin foil hat)Well Intel did recently buy Soft Machines, creators of the VISC architecture...(/tin foil hat)
Dual Opteron 6376, 96 GB DDR3, Asus KGPE-D16, GTX 970
Mac Pro Dual Xeon E5645, 48 GB DDR3, GTX 770
Core i7 3930K@4.2 Ghz, 32 GB DDR3, GA-X79-UP5-Wifi
Core i7 2600K@4.4 Ghz, 16 GB DDR3, GTX 970, GA-X68XP-UD4
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 48766
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:44 pm

the wrote:
(tin foil hat)Well Intel did recently buy Soft Machines, creators of the VISC architecture...(/tin foil hat)

I see that as more of a science project, with an uncertain payoff sometime in the future. My guess is that it'll effectively be Itanium Reloaded, i.e. a niche architecture that will have trouble gaining traction.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Vhalidictes
Gold subscriber
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1452
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:32 pm
Location: Paragon City, RI

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:54 pm

Re: Single core performance - I'm a bit surprised that Intel hasn't leveraged its lower cost and high performance fabs to create a CPU design with massive high speed L1/L2 caches. We already know from the (desktop) Broadwell / Crystalwell reviews that this can be a large performance boost in a variety of situations.

Taking a step back, a huge problem with modern CPU design (and the original reason why HT was developed) is simply getting instructions to the core as fast as they could theoretically be executed.

CPU<->RAM bandwidth is not a solved problem and from what little I know, possible returns on performance there dwarf what little is left to be done with current (Intel) ALU design
 
Village
Gerbil
Posts: 64
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:48 pm

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:18 pm

DPete27 wrote:
It also begs the question. Since AMD just launched Ryzen (which in my opinion is their attempt to reverse-engineer Intel Core i architecture), do you suppose Intel is poised to launch a ground-up new architecture at some point in the near future that would put AMD back in the ground?


I am no engineer, but I doubt it. I think we are reaching the limits on the technology. We will continue to see improvements, but I'd be surprised if anyone is hiding big gains in architecture design. Other then I suppose, smaller and more specialized units to do what they do fast rather than general processing power.
 
the
Gold subscriber
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 822
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:26 am

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:42 pm

just brew it! wrote:
the wrote:
(tin foil hat)Well Intel did recently buy Soft Machines, creators of the VISC architecture...(/tin foil hat)

I see that as more of a science project, with an uncertain payoff sometime in the future. My guess is that it'll effectively be Itanium Reloaded, i.e. a niche architecture that will have trouble gaining traction.


In fairness to Soft Machines, they did have hardware to show off. It at least worked at some level conceptually. If it provided the claimed performance and power savings is a very open question. Either way, Intel was convinced enough to buy the company.
Dual Opteron 6376, 96 GB DDR3, Asus KGPE-D16, GTX 970
Mac Pro Dual Xeon E5645, 48 GB DDR3, GTX 770
Core i7 3930K@4.2 Ghz, 32 GB DDR3, GA-X79-UP5-Wifi
Core i7 2600K@4.4 Ghz, 16 GB DDR3, GTX 970, GA-X68XP-UD4
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 48766
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:57 pm

the wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
the wrote:
(tin foil hat)Well Intel did recently buy Soft Machines, creators of the VISC architecture...(/tin foil hat)

I see that as more of a science project, with an uncertain payoff sometime in the future. My guess is that it'll effectively be Itanium Reloaded, i.e. a niche architecture that will have trouble gaining traction.

In fairness to Soft Machines, they did have hardware to show off. It at least worked at some level conceptually. If it provided the claimed performance and power savings is a very open question. Either way, Intel was convinced enough to buy the company.

Intel and their partners were also convinced enough that Itanium was the future to sink billions of $ of R&D into it. The $250 million they spent on Soft Machines is small in comparison.

(Random tangent - I can't see Soft Machines mentioned without thinking of this band: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z99w41FVpqY)
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
I.S.T.
Gerbil XP
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:18 am

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:15 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
Intel 7th Generation Core Processor


7th = Kaby Lake, 7000-series
6th = Skylake, 6000-series
5th = Broadwell, 5000-series
4th = Haswell, 4000-series
3rd = Ivy Bridge, 3000-series
2nd = Sandy Bridge. 2000-series
1st = Westmere (Nehalem-C), Core i3-530 to i7-990X

So what does that make the rest?

0th = Nehalem, Core i5-750 to i7-975
-1th = Penryn/Yorkfield C2D E8xxx and C2Q Q9xxx
-2th = Conroe/Kentsfield C2D E6xxx and C2Q Q6XXX

And yeah, before that was the Intel "Bulldozer" AKA Pentium 4 Willamette/Northwood etc. Good job AMD watched this long-pipeline monster tank horribly and didn't make one of their own. Oh. Nevermind, Ryzen is here, everything's okay again a mere 15 years later....


They count both Nehalem gens as one due to them being identical. The Core/Core 2 thing is dumb, though.
 
Kougar
Silver subscriber
Gerbil Jedi
Posts: 1922
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:12 am
Location: Texas

Re: When will Intel retire the Core i architecture

Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:55 pm

the wrote:
The other factor in releasing a new architecture is that it takes a long time to validate. Ryzen just hit the market but the ground work for it started in 2012. If Intel were to start today, it'd be ~2021 before it'd see the light of day. Intel is large enough to have a second architecture in development in a secret lab in parallel to their public roadmap so any new architecture before then is still possible, just unlikely.


That's the thing. If Intel waited until the last year to begin working on a replacement then AMD is going to have a field day regaining lost marketshare in servers and datacenters in the interim. Either that or Intel is going to have to quickly adjust its pricing and models downwards to match the core counts. More cores, cheap 2P board implementations, a much higher number of RAM banks, and lower cost should let Naples win more than a few designs I'd imagine

As ya say Intel can play around with dropping power consumption and avoid making the perf/power tradeoffs, but unlike consumer parts at the end of the day they still need to focus on Xeon performance. I'm looking forward to Naples launching just to see how it plays out.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Topinio and 1 guest