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ultima_trev
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AotS Ryzen patch

Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:40 am

Ashes of the Singularity, one of the games to paint a very unflattering image of Ryzen gaming performance, has been patch and it increases performance by ~20% on Ryzen:

https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Processor ... nce-Update
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I.S.T.
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:42 am

Really seems like this arch is a bit fragile for the moment... Not Bulldozer bad, but still.
 
ultima_trev
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:49 am

Unlike Bulldozer, Ryzen actually HAS the potential to perform close to Intel.
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:06 am

ultima_trev wrote:
Ashes of the Singularity, one of the games to paint a very unflattering image of Ryzen gaming performance, has been patch and it increases performance by ~20% on Ryzen:

https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Processor ... nce-Update


Impressive uplift, Zen is also looking great using 3200MHZ RAM.
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:06 am

ultima_trev wrote:
Ashes of the Singularity, one of the games to paint a very unflattering image of Ryzen gaming performance, has been patch and it increases performance by ~20% on Ryzen:

https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Processor ... nce-Update


sweet baby james that's a big increase. looking around the web it seems like they'll make up 10% just as the platform and memory performance matures/gets right.
 
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:40 am

I.S.T. wrote:
Really seems like this arch is a bit fragile for the moment... Not Bulldozer bad, but still.

All modern architectures make assumptions about how application code will behave. When you hit outliers which violate those assumptions, performance will be reduced. It's just a fact of life.
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chuckula
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:10 am

I'd be curious to see what the 6900K, which is not usually considered a gaming monster, could do if Intel threw money at the AotS developers to optimize its performance too.
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:26 am

I.S.T. wrote:
Really seems like this arch is a bit fragile for the moment... Not Bulldozer bad, but still.



Developers have been optimizing their code for Intel CPUs for the past 5 years, so I guess it's understandable...
 
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:08 pm

I.S.T. wrote:
Really seems like this arch is a bit fragile for the moment... Not Bulldozer bad, but still.


Isn't this somewhat expected though? Compilers optimize for architectures best they are able to. With a new architecture, I would expect at least in some cases there to be significant improvements when compiled against it. Not a coder, so maybe I have it wrong. But I'm somewhat surprised we don't see the need for more patches to take advantage of Ryzen. Or perhaps we do but if there is parity between AMD/Ryzen CPU's then they just don't care.
 
ultima_trev
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:59 am

So apparently there is a technical issue where AotS performance tanks on 6 and 8 core CPUs (both Intel and AMD) as it displays added detail for higher core counts:

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Ryzen-7-1 ... 24503/#idx
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:24 pm

This game always makes me chuckle when it pops up in these discussions, as I feel like more reviewers and benchmarkers own it than actual players.

This patch tells us little about how Ryzen will perform across a wider population of games; AotS could just be poorly-optimized.
 
southrncomfortjm
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:53 pm

I don't want to be mean or anything, I really want AMD to succeed here, but it seems like what we have is Intel CPUs working really well out of the box, but we'll have to wait for game devs to patch games to maximize performance on Ryzen. That seems to be a tall order unfortunately, since it's just another thing that devs have to work on to optimize a game.

I really hope this get straightened out in an automatic way, since I think that high thread counts are the future given the high thread counts of consoles. That said, 8 threads, like in the 7700k, may end up being enough if consoles never get past that point.

If I did anything other than gaming on my PC, I'd definitely consider a Ryzen CPU, but since I don't, my upgrade path will likely remain with Intel.
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:08 pm

The Zen architecture just isn't the same as the Core architecture, although there are a lot of similarities. There's no possible way for it to work "out of the box".

Given that pretty much all non-hobby code is CPU-tuned nowadays, it's literally impossible for there to be such a thing as "straightened out in an automatic way", unless of course AMD straight-up copies Intel microcode.

You're essentially asking for man-years of work from every software company ever, replicating the last ... 10(?) years of Core optimizations to be automagically retroactively applied to Zen. The good news is that when Zen is 10 years old things should be optimized for it pretty well whether AMD survives or not; It seems to have sold pretty well.
 
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:38 am

southrncomfortjm wrote:
I don't want to be mean or anything, I really want AMD to succeed here, but it seems like what we have is Intel CPUs working really well out of the box, but we'll have to wait for game devs to patch games to maximize performance on Ryzen. That seems to be a tall order unfortunately, since it's just another thing that devs have to work on to optimize a game.

I really hope this get straightened out in an automatic way, since I think that high thread counts are the future given the high thread counts of consoles. That said, 8 threads, like in the 7700k, may end up being enough if consoles never get past that point.

If I did anything other than gaming on my PC, I'd definitely consider a Ryzen CPU, but since I don't, my upgrade path will likely remain with Intel.


So the fact that 6900K and other Intel HEDT SKUs performance tanks due to the forced added details is Intel working out of the box? Also look at how well Ryzen scored when they disabled four cores, a couple frames behind the 7700K at most.

This game is just poorly coded, nothing more to it than that.

Right now, outside of certain outliers, AMD and Intel gaming performance is a wash. When Ryzen 5 and Naples drop people will no more reason to support the Intel monopoly.
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:43 am

Kretschmer wrote:
This game always makes me chuckle when it pops up in these discussions, as I feel like more reviewers and benchmarkers own it than actual players.

This patch tells us little about how Ryzen will perform across a wider population of games; AotS could just be poorly-optimized.

I don't think it's poorly optimized at all, it just uses CPU resources in a way that most games just don't. I want to play it, but I admittedly don't much.

It's mostly academic in that even having not put much time into it, it's still one of the most interesting things to hit the market in the last ten years partly because the RTS field largely just died out and I used to be a fan.

It's like an attempt at rearchitecting an entire genre, and we'll see if it means anything or not but I hope it comes back. (I won't count Starcraft 2 as even as a huge seller with good game design, it's technologically crap. And pretty much the only example I can think of for a counterargument. There are certainly more games in the RTS field, but I haven't heard of them being all that impressive sales or tech wise.)
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:31 am

Lostcat, couldn't agree more.

Kretschmer wrote:
This game always makes me chuckle when it pops up in these discussions, as I feel like more reviewers and benchmarkers own it than actual players.

This patch tells us little about how Ryzen will perform across a wider population of games; AotS could just be poorly-optimized.


Probably because AotS is a play once and forget game. Nothing really deep about it, mass units and send them in. SupCom had a longer campaign to enjoy and in some ways more complex game mechanics.
 
xpentor
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:36 am

I am wondering whether this patch affects existing AMD FX line CPUs too?
 
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:48 am

xpentor wrote:
I am wondering whether this patch affects existing AMD FX line CPUs too?

Probably not. Seems MSVC2015 had a bug that affected this game a fair bit. Upgrading to MSVC2017 fixed it.

According to a compiler dev, the main problem was non-temporal memory writes causing whole cache flushes on Ryzen. Argues for not using them as the gains are sporadic and the pitfalls many.

https://twitter.com/FioraAeterna/status ... 6344033280

https://twitter.com/FioraAeterna/status ... 5127959554

https://twitter.com/dankbaker/status/847514288851828736
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Mon Apr 03, 2017 7:53 pm

southrncomfortjm wrote:
I don't want to be mean or anything, I really want AMD to succeed here, but it seems like what we have is Intel CPUs working really well out of the box, but we'll have to wait for game devs to patch games to maximize performance on Ryzen. That seems to be a tall order unfortunately, since it's just another thing that devs have to work on to optimize a game.

If I did anything other than gaming on my PC, I'd definitely consider a Ryzen CPU, but since I don't, my upgrade path will likely remain with Intel.


Let's be clear. Games do not run poorly on Ryzen. These benchmarks are not how gamers actually game. I crank up as much details and resolution as my GPU can muster. I don't set my games to 1080p with base settings so that I can compare to other CPUs. Most gamers are actually GPU-bound as most gamers do not buy $500-1100 GPUs. And when you are GPU bound, the Ryzen is right there with the Intel processors. I didn't see any duplicity with how AMD demonstrated their Ryzen processors with games. They set it up the way gamers play games. Not set up to benchmark against other CPUs. And if you dive deeper into the many reviews, while Ryzen is eclipsed in max frame rate compared to Intel equivalents, a lot of the reviews also mention that Ryzen was (on quite a few occasions) more consistent in frame rate (few peaks and valleys).

And for those gamers that say they only game at 1080P... Well, why aren't you using supersampling? Both Nvidia and AMD now support it. Take advantage of the 4K assets and downsample down to 1080P. It'll look better than rendering purely at 1080P. People like to play games. Not wave around, saying their system gets 10 fps more than the other system.
 
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:11 pm

I believe that folks may misunderstand "bottlenecking". I bought a $685 graphics card twenty-two months ago. Even a high end GPU still contributes more to frame times than the CPU does for most games, but there is some latency that is due to CPU or memory.

The question to ask is: if you decided to spend an additional $200 on your PC, would you benefit more from a bigger GPU or a bigger CPU? For games, the answer is almost always the bigger GPU.
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:59 am

onlysublime wrote:
Let's be clear. Games do not run poorly on Ryzen. These benchmarks are not how gamers actually game. I crank up as much details and resolution as my GPU can muster. I don't set my games to 1080p with base settings so that I can compare to other CPUs. Most gamers are actually GPU-bound as most gamers do not buy $500-1100 GPUs. And when you are GPU bound, the Ryzen is right there with the Intel processors.


Exactly my thoughts. I start playing on high and then tune up or down a little until I'm happy with the responsiveness of the game. This is the "max setting" I'm happy with and usually corresponds to average 60-80 fps. Then, I start tuning the visuals down until I actually notice a loss of quality while playing. This is the "most efficient" setting. I usually leave it at that, and if there is a frame cap I put it at 90 fps because that is the upper range of my FreeSync monitor.

For what it's worth, I just upgraded from an old FX 8350 to a Ryzen 1700X and the subjective difference in games was relatively small. Not because the Ryzen is not faster (it is massively faster in other tasks), but because I was already limited by my RX480 at 1440p. I may have gained 10-20fps, but I really can't tell by naked eye. So, I'm quite happy with my Ryzen for gaming because I tuned the games to my system, not the other way round.
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:13 pm

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/game-patches-boost-performance-on-ryzen-showing-just-what-can-and-cant-be-done/

2 pages of somewhat technical reading but well worth the time spent. It also makes the point about higher memory speeds being beneficial to Ryzen performance.
Did you expect to read anything useful here?
 
southrncomfortjm
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Re: AotS Ryzen patch

Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:49 am

onlysublime wrote:
southrncomfortjm wrote:
I don't want to be mean or anything, I really want AMD to succeed here, but it seems like what we have is Intel CPUs working really well out of the box, but we'll have to wait for game devs to patch games to maximize performance on Ryzen. That seems to be a tall order unfortunately, since it's just another thing that devs have to work on to optimize a game.

If I did anything other than gaming on my PC, I'd definitely consider a Ryzen CPU, but since I don't, my upgrade path will likely remain with Intel.


Let's be clear. Games do not run poorly on Ryzen. These benchmarks are not how gamers actually game. I crank up as much details and resolution as my GPU can muster. I don't set my games to 1080p with base settings so that I can compare to other CPUs. Most gamers are actually GPU-bound as most gamers do not buy $500-1100 GPUs. And when you are GPU bound, the Ryzen is right there with the Intel processors. I didn't see any duplicity with how AMD demonstrated their Ryzen processors with games. They set it up the way gamers play games. Not set up to benchmark against other CPUs. And if you dive deeper into the many reviews, while Ryzen is eclipsed in max frame rate compared to Intel equivalents, a lot of the reviews also mention that Ryzen was (on quite a few occasions) more consistent in frame rate (few peaks and valleys).

And for those gamers that say they only game at 1080P... Well, why aren't you using supersampling? Both Nvidia and AMD now support it. Take advantage of the 4K assets and downsample down to 1080P. It'll look better than rendering purely at 1080P. People like to play games. Not wave around, saying their system gets 10 fps more than the other system.


All well and true. I will be interested to see how the first batch of Ryzen CPUs hold up over the next year or two. Believe me, I *want* to buy an AMD part for the sake of competition, but as a min/maxer enthusiast, I can't shake it that Intel just seems to be a bit better for gaming.

Thanks for reminding me about the supersampling. If my GPU can handle it, then it does seem like a great option since it shouldn't tax my CPU much more as far as I can tell.
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