Personal computing discussed

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Glorious
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:01 am

AbBRASiON wrote:
It's raw CPU performance, single and multi-threaded and memory bandwidth.


But the fact remains that open tabs in the background are increasingly being allowed to do less and less by the two browsers you mention, to the point where, currently, they can do almost nothing. This trend is only going to continue, because the impetus for this is primarily for battery life on more mobile platforms, a *VERY* visible metric that is meaningful to millions, whereas the guy going from 4->6 cores to help his transitions between 200+ tabs, well, isn't.

Notice I'm not critiquing your workflow or your choice here, I'm simply telling you that an additional 2 cores beyond 4 isn't going to do anything to help that. Faster per core performance *might*, but no, 4->6 won't.
 
DPete27
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:11 am

AbRASiON wrote:
(paraphrase - I need a $2000 machine to browse the internet)

Can I ask why you need even 100 browser tabs open at once? (have you heard of favorites/bookmarks?) Do you really hate actually browsing the internet so much that you just want to load the whole thing when you open a browser? Like Glorious said, in the recent past more tabs = more memory, but browsers are actively trying to curtail that by putting tabs "to sleep" so i fail to see what having that many tabs open benefits.

TBH, your usage would suggest more RAM, fast storage, and high ISP bandwidth would benefit you much more than a $1000 CPU and that's why people are making the comments they are making. "The way you use your computer" is costing you big money. If you don't want to change, nobody's going to stop you, but you could at least recognize that it's not "normal".
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jihadjoe
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:00 am

@OP

Out of curiosity, what does your CPU tab look in task manager during regular use? You seem to want more cores, but are you actually getting significant usage across all 8 threads? Have you observed what happens to the resource monitors when you do *something* that you wish was more responsive? Did said action cause a spike in disk, network, memory or CPU? If it's spiking disk, then you might benefit from more RAM. If it pegs a single CPU core, then what you might want is higher clock speed or better IPC, vs if all cores spike then you could use more cores.

Having worked in places where messing with people's workflow and re-training them is a PITA, and hand-optimizing code can be expensive, I'm a huge fan of throwing hardware at a problem, but you want to make sure you throw the right kind of hardware at it.
 
Vhalidictes
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:36 pm

DancinJack wrote:
AbRASiON wrote:
...using a browser with 100 to 300 tabs open...

I can say that a 4960k at 3.8ghz was not fast enough, I'd like a 6 core intel @ 4.5ghz and with HT to boot. Also I feel like I need 3200 or even faster ram. By god do I want a responsive machine.

(yes, I have an SSD)


You're doing it wrong.

Stop freaking using 100 TO 300 tabs at one time! There is no way that is "necessary." Nor is it, i'm sure, a use case that Intel or AMD plans for. How do you know a 7700K @ whatever OC or stock isn't fast enough for your ridiculous browsing habits?


I know someone that does the same thing. 5820K overclocked. Fixed the "hundreds of tabs" issue right up, for not too much money. Bonus in that the extra memory channels were actually getting used for something, and of course Chrome-based browsers are multi-threaded all to hell.

She didn't need the extra PCIe channels or any particular motherboard features, pretty sure that the 2011v3 motherboard was a Biostar (cheap), memory timings were slow as molasses (cheap), but there was a lot of it (4x8GB IIRC). Fairly certain that the entire build was less than $700, but the repurposed Mushkin 1TB SSD might not have been in that figure.
 
AbRASiON

Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:58 pm

Glorious wrote:
AbBRASiON wrote:
It's raw CPU performance, single and multi-threaded and memory bandwidth.


But the fact remains that open tabs in the background are increasingly being allowed to do less and less by the two browsers you mention, to the point where, currently, they can do almost nothing. This trend is only going to continue, because the impetus for this is primarily for battery life on more mobile platforms, a *VERY* visible metric that is meaningful to millions, whereas the guy going from 4->6 cores to help his transitions between 200+ tabs, well, isn't.

Notice I'm not critiquing your workflow or your choice here, I'm simply telling you that an additional 2 cores beyond 4 isn't going to do anything to help that. Faster per core performance *might*, but no, 4->6 won't.


EXACTLY, you're proving my point. There's nothing intrinsically bad about a heap of tabs open if they aren't allowed to tap the resources too heavily.

The PC is sluggish 'generally' - by my definition and I want to absoloutely and utterly ensure, Windows is as fast as humanly possible.
Opening explorer, changing applications, changing tabs, closing applications, switching things from monitor to monitor, copying files, scanning files, printing, opening RDP connections, booting VMs , copying and pasting extremely extremely large graphics images, saving files, maximising windows, making flash video full screen. Opening local video files, etc
General.use. I want this particular element as quick as possible.

I personally suspect that a 4/8 Intel at 5.0ghz (The Kaby 7700k) would beat a Ryzen 8/16 at 4.0ghz for this kind of general use.
Yes more cores would help this stuff, to a point.
Therefore to get back on topic, a 6/12 Intel with their IPC is probably going to serve me really well. So I'm eager to see this CPU released, hopefully under $400 US
 
AbRASiON

Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:01 pm

jihadjoe wrote:
@OP

Out of curiosity, what does your CPU tab look in task manager during regular use? You seem to want more cores, but are you actually getting significant usage across all 8 threads? Have you observed what happens to the resource monitors when you do *something* that you wish was more responsive? Did said action cause a spike in disk, network, memory or CPU? If it's spiking disk, then you might benefit from more RAM. If it pegs a single CPU core, then what you might want is higher clock speed or better IPC, vs if all cores spike then you could use more cores.

Having worked in places where messing with people's workflow and re-training them is a PITA, and hand-optimizing code can be expensive, I'm a huge fan of throwing hardware at a problem, but you want to make sure you throw the right kind of hardware at it.


Depends on the day, but it's not often I see all cores pegged at 100%
I have used my PC with 24GB, more memory won't help, it was always exceeding 8GB memory free unless I fired up more than 1 VM.
Internet bandwidth can't be addressed and going from SSD to M.2 SSD is extremely diminishing in returns.

I need either more cores or faster cores or more memory bandwidth. Combination of those 3 will make 'general computing' feel faster.
6 core Intel hopefully will deliver something for me.
 
AbRASiON

Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:08 pm

Also, we're getting vastly off topic here, if it suits me or not is irrelevant, either Ryzen 8/16 @ 4ghz will suit me, or Coffee 6/12 @ 4.2ghz (or higher, presumably) will suit me. One of the 2 systems will beat my current one.

I personally suspect if the Coffee Lake exceeds 4.5ghz and is otherwise just a 6/12 version of the 7700k, it'll really close in on on the Ryzen on several benchmarks, if not outright exceeding it in almost all of them.
 
_ppi
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:19 pm

the wrote:
Coffee Lake-S does make sense though as it will fit into existing LGA 1151 sockets and provide a 6 core upgrade path. Here, this makes sense. There is the possibility that motherboard manufacturers may permit this chip to be enabled on earlier Z170 boards. This mirrors Kaby Lake chips getting support on Z170 boards.

I really hope this is possible. I bought 6600K with a view that later I would upgrade to whatever fastest thing runs on my mobo. But upgrading to just 7700k is not worth my money.
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whm1974
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:32 pm

AbRASiON wrote:
Also, we're getting vastly off topic here, if it suits me or not is irrelevant, either Ryzen 8/16 @ 4ghz will suit me, or Coffee 6/12 @ 4.2ghz (or higher, presumably) will suit me. One of the 2 systems will beat my current one.

I personally suspect if the Coffee Lake exceeds 4.5ghz and is otherwise just a 6/12 version of the 7700k, it'll really close in on on the Ryzen on several benchmarks, if not outright exceeding it in almost all of them.

And will probably cost way more then the Ryzen. Intel isn't known for being cheap.
 
the
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sat Apr 29, 2017 12:33 pm

Intel does know when to cut costs to cut off a competitor in the market. They did it with Xeon D to prevent ARM encroaching into the data center and they tried that with Atom in the ultra mobile market. However, those strategies were under different management too. Their current leadership is more reactive than proactive it seems so if AMD were to come out swing with similarly fast chips but at a cheaper price, I can genuinely see a major price war erupting as long as AMD can outflank Intel for the next couple of years on features (more cores, faster GPU, better IO etc.).
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BIF
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:06 pm

So there's really a thing called "Coffee Lake?"

Now I'll never get any sleep! :P
 
Waco
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:32 pm

AbRASiON wrote:
I have used my PC with 24GB, more memory won't help, it was always exceeding 8GB memory free unless I fired up more than 1 VM.

Really? You should *never* have free memory if things are working properly - do you mean 8 GB cached but available? More memory == more things cached in RAM rather than on disk == better responsiveness. You've never seen a snappy Windows install until you've played on a system with enough DRAM to cache your entire working set...
Victory requires no explanation. Defeat allows none.
 
AbRASiON

Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:42 pm

whm1974 wrote:
AbRASiON wrote:
Also, we're getting vastly off topic here, if it suits me or not is irrelevant, either Ryzen 8/16 @ 4ghz will suit me, or Coffee 6/12 @ 4.2ghz (or higher, presumably) will suit me. One of the 2 systems will beat my current one.

I personally suspect if the Coffee Lake exceeds 4.5ghz and is otherwise just a 6/12 version of the 7700k, it'll really close in on on the Ryzen on several benchmarks, if not outright exceeding it in almost all of them.

And will probably cost way more then the Ryzen. Intel isn't known for being cheap.



Cost more than the 6 core inferior Ryzen? Very likely.
Cost more than the 8 core somewhat competitive Ryzen? Very unlikely.
The 1800X costs more than a 7700k and the 1700x I (think?) does too.
I won't deny, I think it's possible intel will jack the price of the 6/12core Coffee lake another $50 US though, it would be unfortunate.
 
AbRASiON

Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:44 pm

Waco wrote:
AbRASiON wrote:
I have used my PC with 24GB, more memory won't help, it was always exceeding 8GB memory free unless I fired up more than 1 VM.

Really? You should *never* have free memory if things are working properly - do you mean 8 GB cached but available? More memory == more things cached in RAM rather than on disk == better responsiveness. You've never seen a snappy Windows install until you've played on a system with enough DRAM to cache your entire working set...


The performance issues my PC suffered were without question, not memory related, regardless of your anecdotes. Sorry. It's CPU or memory bandwidth causing my issues.
 
Redocbew
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:09 pm

I would bet some through testing would show otherwise, but hey whatever does it for you man.

If there's a six core chip in the lineup soon from Intel I'm all for it, but I doubt it'll be a decision they make based on performance.
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Waco
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:26 pm

AbRASiON wrote:
The performance issues my PC suffered were without question, not memory related, regardless of your anecdotes. Sorry. It's CPU or memory bandwidth causing my issues.

I wasn't trying to imply they were memory related, just that if you had *free* memory, something was wrong.
Victory requires no explanation. Defeat allows none.
 
ChicagoDave
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 1:10 am

It's interesting when you think about it...AMD released their HEDT processors and cut-down ones first. Ryzen chips right now have lots of cores (all basically 2x4 core modules with some cut off), lots of cache, and no iGPU. Just a big chunk of silicon that is all CPU and no GPU. Later this year we'll get to see the real competition when AMD releases their Ryzen CPU + Radeon GPU. That should prove an interesting competition, back in the day the Radeon graphics were way stronger than Intel but still weak compared to dGPU. Intel has caught up but I have no idea how they compare to AMD's current iGPU products. And with the iGPU comes a bunch of heat so that will change how the CPU acts and how fast it can go. Coffee Lake looks great too, although we still need a lot more official data to really know what's in the pipeline.
 
AbRASiON

Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:47 am

ChicagoDave wrote:
It's interesting when you think about it...AMD released their HEDT processors and cut-down ones first. Ryzen chips right now have lots of cores (all basically 2x4 core modules with some cut off), lots of cache, and no iGPU. Just a big chunk of silicon that is all CPU and no GPU. Later this year we'll get to see the real competition when AMD releases their Ryzen CPU + Radeon GPU. That should prove an interesting competition, back in the day the Radeon graphics were way stronger than Intel but still weak compared to dGPU. Intel has caught up but I have no idea how they compare to AMD's current iGPU products. And with the iGPU comes a bunch of heat so that will change how the CPU acts and how fast it can go. Coffee Lake looks great too, although we still need a lot more official data to really know what's in the pipeline.



I'm trying not to make this thread an AMD bash, but we've already seen their "preemo chips" focused purely on CPU can't beat intel, clock for clock, let alone factoring in overclocking.
For my HTPC or my FreeNAS? I'd 1000% consider AMD. For my desktop PC? current benchmarks make me totally disinterested in AMD offerings.
I wish AMD would focus on another nice FreeNAS / HP Microserver CPU (think AMD Turion, 2018 edition) and a nice x265 encoding / decoding low power but with some grunt HTPC CPU.

Anyhow I'm off topic, coffee lake sounds good, wish we knew if the sisoft leaks were infact i5, 6 core or something else.
 
credible
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:58 am

AbRASiON wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
AbRASiON wrote:
Also, we're getting vastly off topic here, if it suits me or not is irrelevant, either Ryzen 8/16 @ 4ghz will suit me, or Coffee 6/12 @ 4.2ghz (or higher, presumably) will suit me. One of the 2 systems will beat my current one.

I personally suspect if the Coffee Lake exceeds 4.5ghz and is otherwise just a 6/12 version of the 7700k, it'll really close in on on the Ryzen on several benchmarks, if not outright exceeding it in almost all of them.

And will probably cost way more then the Ryzen. Intel isn't known for being cheap.



Cost more than the 6 core inferior Ryzen? Very likely.
Cost more than the 8 core somewhat competitive Ryzen? Very unlikely.
The 1800X costs more than a 7700k and the 1700x I (think?) does too.
I won't deny, I think it's possible intel will jack the price of the 6/12core Coffee lake another $50 US though, it would be unfortunate.



I'm beginning to think the OP is another Chuckula account lol because for me this post explains it quite clearly in the word choices.
 
AbRASiON

Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 8:28 am

credible wrote:
AbRASiON wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
And will probably cost way more then the Ryzen. Intel isn't known for being cheap.



Cost more than the 6 core inferior Ryzen? Very likely.
Cost more than the 8 core somewhat competitive Ryzen? Very unlikely.
The 1800X costs more than a 7700k and the 1700x I (think?) does too.
I won't deny, I think it's possible intel will jack the price of the 6/12core Coffee lake another $50 US though, it would be unfortunate.



I'm beginning to think the OP is another Chuckula account lol because for me this post explains it quite clearly in the word choices.


I've been posting here since 2003, if you don't like my posts, don't read them and go away.
 
Waco
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:23 pm

AbRASiON wrote:

I've been posting here since 2003, if you don't like my posts, don't read them and go away.

You're very lovable.
Victory requires no explanation. Defeat allows none.
 
AbRASiON

Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:32 pm

What kind of response does he expect after such a post?
 
xDoritox
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:49 pm

Did you forget to take your daily pills? Someone needs help pronto... WOW
Ryzen's IPC is within 2-5% of Kaby Lake CPUs at the same or even slightly higher clocks. It's true Most Ryzen 5 CPUs don't go beyond 4GHz, but that's fine, Intel's 1st gen 14nm didn't overclock much beyond 4GHz either. In multi-threaded benchmarks, AMD's SMT seems to be either on par or even better than Intel's HT. Only a few benchmarks that AMD does worse than Intel, is in the "RETIRED" Octane and these pre-Ryzen games which many now are being patched for Ryzen fervently.
I don't think Intel's upcoming 6-core Skylake/Kaby Lake x CPUs will go beyond 4.2-4.5GHz, it's a nice boost yes, but there's no way Intel will sell them for anything under $500 USD. For that money, you can get the Ryzen 7 1800x overclock it to 4.1-4.2GHz and steamroll the competition.
 
whm1974
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:54 pm

jihadjoe wrote:
I feel that what you actually need isn't necessarily a faster CPU, but a ton of RAM. Most of the background tabs would be halted (as of Chrome 57 background tabs are restricted to 1% CPU), so whatever slowdown you get is coming from swapping the contents back into memory when you tab back. If you give each tab 256MB or so, at 150 tabs you'll need 38GB of RAM just so Chrome can keep the tab contents in memory.

Sounds like a NVMe SSD might help here as well, but I think having 150 tabs open is a bit silly. I do believe that if the OP changes his work flow and habits to something reasonable he will find his current system is good enough.
 
Arbiter Odie
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:18 pm

There is nothing silly about having 150 tabs open. In my own, personal, experience, bookmarks are rather clunky and I almost never re-open stuff once I've dropped into the bookmarks folder. But if I leave them open in tabs, it's all right there, and I almost always end up coming back to it. I use this for big long articles that look important, as well as forum threads.

Also, I have 32 GB of ram, and it doesn't help at all-- it's clearly the browser(s) not knowing being optimized for so many tabs. I suspect a Kaby clocked to 5GHz would be the best bet for helping the poor web browsers handle the unusual workflow.


Edit:

An example of an article that would receive this treatment.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/14/maga ... ening.html
Intel E3 1246 (essentially a 4770k) - Asrock C226ws - 32GB ECC ram - Saphire RX580 (undervolted) - Vertex 4, 120GB - 2x Toshiba, 4TB - Hitachi, 4TB
 
End User
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:27 pm

AbRASiON wrote:
If you don't play games, it's more than enough for windows / youtube.

You don't need a PC for YouTube/browsing/chat/music/Office/etc.
 
Robotics
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:31 pm

Open bookmarks always slow our browsers. But if I stored all bookmarks in a folder, do they slow my browser?
 
Arbiter Odie
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:54 pm

End User wrote:
AbRASiON wrote:
If you don't play games, it's more than enough for windows / youtube.

You don't need a PC for YouTube/browsing/chat/music/Office/etc.


I would venture the opinion that an iPad counts as a PC :P


Also, Robotics, I don't understand what you mean. Are you talking about sorting bookmarks into folders vs. keeping them all in one gigantic list?
Intel E3 1246 (essentially a 4770k) - Asrock C226ws - 32GB ECC ram - Saphire RX580 (undervolted) - Vertex 4, 120GB - 2x Toshiba, 4TB - Hitachi, 4TB
 
Robotics
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:58 pm

Arbiter Odie wrote:
End User wrote:
AbRASiON wrote:
If you don't play games, it's more than enough for windows / youtube.

You don't need a PC for YouTube/browsing/chat/music/Office/etc.


I would venture the opinion that an iPad counts as a PC :P


Also, Robotics, I don't understand what you mean. Are you talking about sorting bookmarks into folders vs. keeping them all in one gigantic list?


Yeah.If I keeping them all in one gigantic list, Do they slow my browser or not?
 
Arbiter Odie
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Re: Coffee Lake 6 core, this August with z370 chipsets?

Sun Apr 30, 2017 7:01 pm

I don't know. I have less than 10 bookmarks, so I am the wrong person to ask, sorry!
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