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whm1974
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:16 am

just brew it! wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Just wondering, but how many people will actually buy these things?

If even End User thinks that's too much for a CPU, I'd hazard a guess that the answer is "almost nobody". :lol:

It's a "halo" product, created for bragging rights. Both Intel's, and those of anyone silly enough to drop that kind of coin on a "consumer" CPU.

I've seen five year old used Xeon Workstations with some really good specs for sale that go for far less than $2000. :roll:
 
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:24 am

whm1974 wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Just wondering, but how many people will actually buy these things?

If even End User thinks that's too much for a CPU, I'd hazard a guess that the answer is "almost nobody". :lol:

It's a "halo" product, created for bragging rights. Both Intel's, and those of anyone silly enough to drop that kind of coin on a "consumer" CPU.

I've seen five year old used Xeon Workstations with some really good specs for sale that go for far less than $2000. :roll:

Of course.

But it's not the latest shiny bleeding edge thing. Why do people buy Rolex watches, or expensive sports cars (just to drive in city traffic)?
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Vhalidictes
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:25 am

End User wrote:
I'm not going to drop $2,000 on a CPU but I'm also not going to talk like a holier than thou ****** and berate someone from my high horse if they want to drop that kind of coin. Putting aside your outrage at the price the fact remains that the $2,000 i9 is a consumer CPU and it puts the $300 CPU decidedly on the cheap end of the pricing chart.


End User, I'm not trying to be combative. I build computers for a hobby. I've surely reached 4 figures built by now. If I had a nickle everyone splurged on a part that wouldn't do a damn thing for their use case I'd be a millionaire.

I've met people from hundreds of different backgrounds at all levels of the income spectrum, and the one thing that they have in common is ignoring the price/performance curve.

I give advice in some cases, but I always build what they spec, and I've seen endless stupid crap. AMD A10 with a GeForce 1080 Ti was the most recent thing I painfully ignored. There's no possibility that the card would be pushed outside of maybe some Vulkan API benchmark (And yes, Ryzen leaks were already out there when it was made).

That's why I react to some posts the way I do.
 
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:35 am

Another fairly common one is high-end CPU. motherboard, and GPU with a POS generic PSU "because it says 500W on it, and besides, it came free with the case". Or the flip side of that -- budget CPU/motherboard/GPU, and a high-end PSU that costs as much as the rest of the components put together "because I've heard that extra PSU headroom makes everything work better".

Some people just can't seem to grasp what a balanced build is.
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Vhalidictes
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:39 am

just brew it! wrote:
Another fairly common one is high-end CPU. motherboard, and GPU with a POS generic PSU "because it says 500W on it, and besides, it came free with the case". Or the flip side of that -- budget CPU/motherboard/GPU, and a high-end PSU that costs as much as the rest of the components put together "because I've heard that extra PSU headroom makes everything work better".

Some people just can't seem to grasp what a balanced build is.


JBI, one thing I'm always looking out for is 200-300 watt high-end PSUs. I always end up over-speccing because they just don't seem to exist at any kind of reasonable price any more.

A lot of these "gaming" PCs are really family computers and spend all day turned-on just for web browsing. The load for Skylake builds is so low I'm sure they're wasting all kinds of power. A decent 650 Watt PSU can't be ticking over 10% load in those cases. I'm not even close to an EE but I'm sure conversion losses aren't trivial over long periods of time.
 
whm1974
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 11:56 am

just brew it! wrote:
Another fairly common one is high-end CPU. motherboard, and GPU with a POS generic PSU "because it says 500W on it, and besides, it came free with the case". Or the flip side of that -- budget CPU/motherboard/GPU, and a high-end PSU that costs as much as the rest of the components put together "because I've heard that extra PSU headroom makes everything work better".

Some people just can't seem to grasp what a balanced build is.

It really pays to do your research. I did that when I did my first build back in 2000, I use the Deer PSU that came with the case. About four months later I ended up going to Best Buy and replacing it with an Antec 350W.
 
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:04 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
A lot of these "gaming" PCs are really family computers and spend all day turned-on just for web browsing. The load for Skylake builds is so low I'm sure they're wasting all kinds of power. A decent 650 Watt PSU can't be ticking over 10% load in those cases. I'm not even close to an EE but I'm sure conversion losses aren't trivial over long periods of time.

There still seem to be some semi-reasonable options in the 450-500W range?

whm1974 wrote:
It really pays to do your research. I did that when I did my first build back in 2000, I use the Deer PSU that came with the case. About four months later I ended up going to Best Buy and replacing it with an Antec 350W.

Hopefully one of the Antecs that had decent capacitors? I got burned by a couple of Antecs around that timeframe that succumbed to the Capacitor Plague.
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whm1974
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:27 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
A lot of these "gaming" PCs are really family computers and spend all day turned-on just for web browsing. The load for Skylake builds is so low I'm sure they're wasting all kinds of power. A decent 650 Watt PSU can't be ticking over 10% load in those cases. I'm not even close to an EE but I'm sure conversion losses aren't trivial over long periods of time.

There still seem to be some semi-reasonable options in the 450-500W range?

whm1974 wrote:
It really pays to do your research. I did that when I did my first build back in 2000, I use the Deer PSU that came with the case. About four months later I ended up going to Best Buy and replacing it with an Antec 350W.

Hopefully one of the Antecs that had decent capacitors? I got burned by a couple of Antecs around that timeframe that succumbed to the Capacitor Plague.

I would look at a SeaSonic.
It was Best Buy. All they had in stock at the time was another Deer and the Antec.
 
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:31 pm

Corsair and Cooler Master have worked well for me in recent years. I was a little concerned that one of the Cooler Master units seemed a little light (in terms of physical weight) for its rated wattage, but it held up and gave me no trouble.
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:37 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
price/performance curve

AAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH

There is more to life than the price/performance curve. I'm typing this out on a 2015 MacBook and I know that it would epically fail your price/performance measurement yet it is my pride and joy. I'm going to give it a hug in a moment.
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:51 pm

End User wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
price/performance curve

AAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH

There is more to life than the price/performance curve. I'm typing this out on a 2015 MacBook and I know that it would epically fail your price/performance measurement yet it is my pride and joy. I'm going to give it a hug in a moment.

To each his own. I use one at work, and I think the keyboard is atrocious; the fan is way too damn loud if you put some load on the system (the price of thinness); 16GB is a little tight for my use case; and the silly sharp edges on the machined aluminum shell (form over function!) are literally cutting holes in my backpack.

On the plus side, nice display and great battery life.

Overall, it gets a big fat "meh" from me. I certainly wouldn't buy one with my own money even if you knocked the price down by a fairly substantial amount, but since someone else paid for it, it'll do.

For general use, I actually prefer my refurb HP ProBook (which I paid around $250 for and upgraded with a 500GB SSD).
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whm1974
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:51 pm

End User wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
price/performance curve

AAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH

There is more to life than the price/performance curve. I'm typing this out on a 2015 MacBook and I know that it would epically fail your price/performance measurement yet it is my pride and joy. I'm going to give it a hug in a moment.

Why am I not surprised that you are a Apple user?
 
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:17 pm

End User wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
price/performance curve

AAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH

There is more to life than the price/performance curve. I'm typing this out on a 2015 MacBook and I know that it would epically fail your price/performance measurement yet it is my pride and joy. I'm going to give it a hug in a moment.


It's your money, man; Do what you want.

For what it's worth, if you keep that MacBook until 2020 it would end up being a great buy in the end. Similarly to automobiles, cost-over-lifetime is a big part of "price".
 
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:34 pm

End User wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
price/performance curve

AAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH

There is more to life than the price/performance curve. I'm typing this out on a 2015 MacBook and I know that it would epically fail your price/performance measurement yet it is my pride and joy. I'm going to give it a hug in a moment.

The price/performance curve matters when building new machines as well though. Nobody cares for MacBooks, but comparing various components within a machine makes a bit of sense, no? :wink:
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:37 pm

whm1974 wrote:
End User wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
price/performance curve

AAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH

There is more to life than the price/performance curve. I'm typing this out on a 2015 MacBook and I know that it would epically fail your price/performance measurement yet it is my pride and joy. I'm going to give it a hug in a moment.

Why am I not surprised that you are a Apple user?


What does that mean whm?

I'm an Apple user. So what preconceived notion do you have about us?
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whm1974
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:56 pm

DancinJack wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
End User wrote:
AAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH

There is more to life than the price/performance curve. I'm typing this out on a 2015 MacBook and I know that it would epically fail your price/performance measurement yet it is my pride and joy. I'm going to give it a hug in a moment.

Why am I not surprised that you are a Apple user?


What does that mean whm?

I'm an Apple user. So what preconceived notion do you have about us?

Come to think of think it my preconceived notions probably mostly applies to those who buy iPhones and iMacs.
 
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:17 pm

whm1974 wrote:
Come to think of think it my preconceived notions probably mostly applies to those who buy iPhones and iMacs.

...and what would your preconceived notions about iPhone users be, then?
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:39 pm

Waco wrote:
End User wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
price/performance curve

AAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHH

There is more to life than the price/performance curve. I'm typing this out on a 2015 MacBook and I know that it would epically fail your price/performance measurement yet it is my pride and joy. I'm going to give it a hug in a moment.

The price/performance curve matters when building new machines as well though.

For some people perhaps. :) My 1800X build may fare better than my MacBook but I'm sure it would still encounter price/performance curve criticism.

Waco wrote:
Nobody cares for MacBooks

I used my MacBook specifically because it is as an example of a device whose usefulness cannot be defined by its price/performance.
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:01 pm

End User wrote:
For some people perhaps. :) My 1800X build may fare better than my MacBook but I'm sure it would still encounter price/performance curve criticism.

Not at all. It clocks a good 150MHz higher than a 1700-non-x for only $150 more. That's less than a dollar a MegaHurtz, and you get a better binned CPU too!
 
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:11 pm

End User wrote:
For some people perhaps. :) My 1800X build may fare better than my MacBook but I'm sure it would still encounter price/performance curve criticism.

I didn't mean to say it applies to all people, but for many it does. Surely, I have purchased many things that break the curve as well (see my stupid storage and cooling configuration).

End User wrote:
Waco wrote:
Nobody cares for MacBooks

I used my MacBook specifically because it is as an example of a device whose usefulness cannot be defined by its price/performance.

Understood. :)
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:27 pm

End User wrote:
I used my MacBook specifically because it is as an example of a device whose usefulness cannot be defined by its price/performance.
Magical thinking. Very brave.
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:33 pm

It just hit me in remembrance and I now know why EndUser is an Apple-Droid. I haven't searched for the exact thread, but he led us on a multi-page merry chase why Apple was right to eliminate the 3.5mm jack on iPhone 7, most of which was for aesthetic reasons, and that every other phone mfg should do the same.
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:43 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
It just hit me in remembrance and I now know why EndUser is an Apple-Droid. I haven't searched for the exact thread, but he led us on a multi-page merry chase why Apple was right to eliminate the 3.5mm jack on iPhone 7, most of which was for aesthetic reasons, and that every other phone mfg should do the same.

I remember that thread. As I recall, I was the one arguing that there nothing wrong with the 3.5mm jack at all. I'm wondering just how we ended up with a Apple-droid on a forum where most of users are folks who enjoy building custom computers?
 
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:46 pm

I've always thought that Apple users(and perhaps PC enthusiasts in general) were a bit like people who ride the bus in that way.

There are people who ride the bus, and then there are bus people. I would argue that both are important to the overall experience even if some of them have their own quirks and smell bad from time to time.
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:55 pm

@whm1974 - Hey, there's even an Apple sub-forum. And I'm sure there are more people here who use a MacBook or iPhone on a daily basis than there are people who use desktop Linux... and you don't seem to have a problem with the Linux users!
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whm1974
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:06 pm

just brew it! wrote:
@whm1974 - Hey, there's even an Apple sub-forum. And I'm sure there are more people here who use a MacBook or iPhone on a daily basis than there are people who use desktop Linux... and you don't seem to have a problem with the Linux users!

Not every Apple user is a droid. I do hear that MacOS and iOS are quite decent to use.
 
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:21 pm

To be fair... I do believe that End User's Macbook has utility. I just don't believe that it's exempt from price/performance analysis (nor any laws of physics). Zenbooks aren't the cheapest laptops, either.
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:26 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
To be fair... I do believe that End User's Macbook has utility. I just don't believe that it's exempt from price/performance analysis (nor any laws of physics). Zenbooks aren't the cheapest laptops, either.

I would get me something from System76.
 
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:28 pm

whm1974 wrote:
JustAnEngineer wrote:
To be fair... I do believe that End User's Macbook has utility. I just don't believe that it's exempt from price/performance analysis (nor any laws of physics). Zenbooks aren't the cheapest laptops, either.

I would get me something from System76.

What were you just saying about droids? :wink:
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Re: What are REAL consumer CPUs?

Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:47 pm

just brew it! wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Come to think of think it my preconceived notions probably mostly applies to those who buy iPhones and iMacs.

...and what would your preconceived notions about iPhone users be, then?


I never saw an answer to this. Did I miss it?
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