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Doctor Venture
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About Silicon Lottery

Sat Aug 19, 2017 4:28 pm

I've seen Silicon Lottery mentioned here a few times, in regards to them de-lidding Intel CPUs, applying better TIM, and binning the CPUs. When I was looking at i7-7700K Kaby Lakes, I noticed that the prices Silicon Lottery charge for a binned 4.2GHz chip they worked on wasn't that much more than buying one from NewEgg (obviously, the 5.1/5,2GHz chips will go for more). My question is, has anyone here used their service, or bought a CPU from them? If so, what kind of experience did you have? Was it pleasant and pain free, or was it like pulling teeth, or were they jackasses?

Just curious, since if I do get a Kaby Lake, I'm a little tempted to buy it from them (assuming they have a great rep), because I don't feel like de-lidding and applying better TIM, re-lid the CPU, and hope for the best. I'm not necessarily going to get the higher clocked CPUs, since you have to follow their guidelines to reach 5.2GHz, and I'd rather keep it at stock clocks, purely for longevity sake.
 
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:56 am

Why would you buy from them if you are going to keep it at stock anyway? Keep in mind the 7700K runs at 4.2Ghz by default, it is the 7700 that defaults to 3.6Ghz.

Speaking for longevity's sake having them replace the TIM means you may have to re-replace it yourself down the road depending on how long the stuff they use lasts. Also if the TIM "seal" gets broken by the IHS shifting or something, I dunno how they address those concerns. Intel's TIM may not give the best performance but I would sure expect it to last the longest for not drying out or degrading, since it isn't intended to be user replaceable.
 
Doctor Venture
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:40 am

Kougar wrote:
Why would you buy from them if you are going to keep it at stock anyway? Keep in mind the 7700K runs at 4.2Ghz by default, it is the 7700 that defaults to 3.6Ghz.

Speaking for longevity's sake having them replace the TIM means you may have to re-replace it yourself down the road depending on how long the stuff they use lasts. Also if the TIM "seal" gets broken by the IHS shifting or something, I dunno how they address those concerns. Intel's TIM may not give the best performance but I would sure expect it to last the longest for not drying out or degrading, since it isn't intended to be user replaceable.


After hearing that there was a large temp difference between the CPU, and the top of the IHS, that had me a bit concerned. I haven't followed the news about it very closely lately, but I do remember people recommending de-lidding their Sky Lakes and Kaby Lakes to apply superior TIM (SL's site says they use " Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut liquid metal.").

Frankly, I'm a bit of a clutz, so if it's worth it to have someone who's a pro at doing that job, I wouldn't mind paying a $25 premium. And sure, I could get the 5.2GHz bin of Kaby Lake, but I would need to follow their specs to the letter, so I'd likely have to buy parts just so that KL will reach the speed it's binned for.

That's why I was asking if anyone here had used them before, since I don't feel like wasting my money on an unknown.

EDIT: I was getting ready to close their tab, when I spotted this:
"There is no need to replace the liquid metal over time. We've been selling delidded processors for three years without any reports of thermal degradation."
No clue if they're ****, but I feel like it's worth asking questions about them.
 
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:48 am

I've only ever heard good things about them.
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:55 am

Kougar wrote:
Why would you buy from them if you are going to keep it at stock anyway?

^ This.

Even if the company is reliable, you're paying more for a modded part with a voided factory warranty that isn't going to be any more reliable over the long run than a stock unmodded one, given your intended use case.
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blahsaysblah
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:39 am

I just delidded i7-7700(no-k). My experience matches up whats on better parts of web.

The TIM already inside CPU is pretty good. What improvement you will see is due to fact that when you use your own sealant to secure IHS, it will lower it/bring closer to CPU. You wont see big jump unless you go to liquid metal from TIM side.

I didnt get much improvement with Noctua NT-H1. Not worth it to delid with regular TIM.

So I switched to Grizzly Conductonaut(Silicon Lottery uses it now), lowered temps by at around 14C during long/heavy workloads. 61C versus 75C. That is with absolute wimpy Noctua NH-L9i cooler with stock 14mm fan.

I think if its one time thing or you want to guarantee higher bin, go Silicon Lottery. Their 1 year warranty should be more than enough to catch any real issues. They've been around long time, haven't used, but absolutely would use from what I've read.

I did it myself because the current delid tool can do all the 115x CPUs. So except for getting guaranteed higher hertz part, it loses value if you can do two or more of your own/family CPUs.

It was absolutely easy.

Things to make trivial:
- get Artic Silver cleaning kit, that first solution that lifts/dissolves TIM is miles easier than paper towel/alcohol wipe and just a litte bit better(which matters for liquid metal application).
- get 20 gauge 1/2" needle tip and a small syringe to dispense the silicone sealant. They get solidified after storage, so get multiple tips. 18 gauge was pretty good on NT-H1 syringe for easier dispensing(only need one). I got a bunch of 18s, next time id get 20 for inside CPU regular TIM/sealant. The liquid metals now come with needle bit anyway. Noctua always came in syringe, just get needle bit yourself. I say NT-H1, but MX-4 seems to be as prevalent TIM for outside CPU. (and used by SL).

edit: actually, for the sealant part, just using a toothpick to pick up and dab a tiny bit across edges of IHS is more than enough. Still like 18 gauge needle bit for Noctua syringe. Makes it easier to not waste TIM.
 
Doctor Venture
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:47 am

blahsaysblah wrote:
I just delidded i7-7700(no-k). My experience matches up whats on better parts of web.

The TIM already inside CPU is pretty good. What improvement you will see is due to fact that when you use your own sealant to secure IHS, it will lower it/bring closer to CPU. You wont see big jump unless you go to liquid metal from TIM side.

I didnt get much improvement with Noctua NT-H1. Not worth it to delid with regular TIM.

So I switched to Grizzly Conductonaut(Silicon Lottery uses it now), lowered temps by at around 14C during long/heavy workloads. 61C versus 75C. That is with absolute wimpy Noctua NH-L9i cooler with stock 14mm fan.

I think if its one time thing or you want to guarantee higher bin, go Silicon Lottery. Their 1 year warranty should be more than enough to catch any real issues. They've been around long time, haven't used, but absolutely would use from what I've read.

I did it myself because the current delid tool can do all the 115x CPUs. So except for getting guaranteed higher hertz part, it loses value if you can do two or more of your own/family CPUs.

It was absolutely easy.

Things to make trivial:
- get Artic Silver cleaning kit, that first solution that lifts/dissolves TIM is miles easier than paper towel/alcohol wipe and just a litte bit better(which matters for liquid metal application).
- get 20 gauge 1/2" needle tip and a small syringe to dispense the silicone sealant. They get solidified after storage, so get multiple tips. 18 gauge was pretty good on NT-H1 syringe for easier dispensing(only need one). I got a bunch of 18s, next time id get 20 for inside CPU regular TIM/sealant. The liquid metals now come with needle bit anyway. Noctua always came in syringe, just get needle bit yourself. I say NT-H1, but MX-4 seems to be as prevalent TIM for outside CPU. (and used by SL).


How "easy" would it be, for an admitted clutz like myself to delid a Kaby Lake, and follow your instructions? Basically, that temp differential is what had me concerned with just buying a boxed KL, since folks early on were claiming that even higher end cooling systems didn't make as much of a difference as deliding it first.
 
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:10 am

If you are not planning to overclock, you are WAAAY over-thinking this. Just buy a stock chip and use it as-is.
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:47 am

Doctor Venture wrote:
How "easy" would it be, for an admitted clutz like myself to delid a Kaby Lake, and follow your instructions? Basically, that temp differential is what had me concerned with just buying a boxed KL, since folks early on were claiming that even higher end cooling systems didn't make as much of a difference as deliding it first.


Just look at the video on RockitCool website.

its a trivial process. its more about paying attention to details and not being lazy.

It takes maybe 10-15 minutes to non-crazily clean off all the old sealant and TIM. I found after using finger nail to remove the big chunks of sealant that using a bunch of q-tips to rub the rest off PCB was simplest/least hair raising experience. Using cut up credit card was too scary. And the i7-7700 has no parts on top side except CPU. Not sure about i7-7700k.

Putting back together, only tricky part was making sure the IHS went onto CPU in one motion. Just do a couple practice runs first. I left it to seal for only maybe 30 minutes or an hour. (First time waited overnight). That was good enough that you can put into socket and carefully close and it wont slide out of place. Just have finger on IHS to be extra careful. Can test it out right away. I had one core a few degrees hotter but that disappeared in first day? Maybe after a power cycle or just some usage. Either way, it disappeared.

Trivial. I used
Permatex Ultra Black Silicone sealant (was hard getting into a used but cleaned Nocuta NT-H1 syringe, but like i said, in retrospect, just dab some with toothpick along edge, remembering to leave gap for air flow)
Noctua NT-H1 TIM for outside CPU, but I might at some point try MX-4 to see how it is. Now that i have needle, it should last very long time though.
RockitCool-88 tool with re-lid attachment. (It centers IHS on CPU PCB, not offset like default, its only mm so doesnt matter). Got white so i can see any specs of dust, bits of sealant scraped off.
And the Grizzly Conductonaut.

I applied the liquid metal without any tape protecting outside of CPU. Absolutely clean IHS(just paper towel and acohol wipes wasnt same as using arctic solution, looked same, couldnt get anything off, but the solution allowed some more grey to come off) and CPU. Remember use very very little. Get mirror finish. Than i added miniscule bit more because i wasnt going to try to apply to IHS side. You will waste a bunch on Q-tips. Just how it is. IHS is very close to CPU now. Had no issues going slow and steady.

I have no idea what the four contacts somewhat near CPU were, i was going to just put some Noctua paste on them to insulate, but never did.

Side note, make sure CPU socket on MB is always covered from dust. Same, make sure underside of CPU PCB is wiped with alcohol wipe to remove finger oils,...


edit: Dont forget some eye glass wipes. I like better than the slightly larger but thinner more popular Zeiss brand.
 
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:00 pm

If you're gonna spend money buying a delidding tool for just one CPU, IMO might as well just buy from siliconlottery and have them do it for you.
 
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:34 pm

just brew it! wrote:
If you are not planning to overclock, you are WAAAY over-thinking this. Just buy a stock chip and use it as-is.

Unless his "normal" use case is all about running AVX2 code all day. :o
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:36 pm

Let me get this straight. You would pay $25 extra for a delidded chip that's only binned to run at stock speed?

Anandtech had what they thought was a middling-poor sample and they could run that at 4.2GHz all-cores when undervolted to 1.100v.

Just use the chip and only consider a delid if it's going into thermal throttling, which other people aren't running into until 4.8GHz+ @ 1.4v+. It's not the OEM TIM that's the problem--it's that Intel doesn't want to spend the time to clamp down the heatspreader while the glue is drying, because to them time is money.
 
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:07 pm

I had a positive experience with Silicon Lottery. I had a 7700K shipped directly to them from Monoprice and received the modded chip a week later in the original packaging. I've been running it for 6 months at stock speeds without problems. Haven't tried overclocking though I might in the future.

With regard to why one might delid without overclocking, I've read from various sources that the mod drops the temperature anywhere from 15C to 25C. I do think this makes a difference with regard to CPU fan noise, although I haven't rigorously tested it using a stock chip as a control.
 
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:48 pm

$25 really isn't bad considering what goes into the process (note: $40 for an i7-7700K though). And "stock" just means that they don't OC it for you to see how high it will go (for those bashing). I wouldn't do it, but considering the "potential" thermal reduction, there's worse ways to spend your money. Regarding increased longevity....that's a bunch of BS. Especially if you're not even OCing. Keep in mind CPUs are made to run for their lifetime under a stock boxed cooler. Pretty much any tower-style or AIO cooler will probably lower the temp delta 2x more than a delid with the stock cooler.
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bfg-9000
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:58 pm

The problem isn't the $25, it's that you also get a guaranteed worst possible bin of a chip (those have to go somewhere after all, after they pick out all the good ones). If geniekid would tell us how much they charged for the delid service on his own unbinned, random sample chip, that's different.

Higher operating temperature doesn't mean higher fan noise if you are willing to accept the higher temperature. While it's higher on the motherboard's simple PWM curve you would simply select lower RPM @12v fans.

Edit: ah, I see on their website that they charge $39.99. It's $59.99 if you also want them to determine and test for highest stable settings for 1 hour.
 
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:12 pm

At stock clocks, there is no real benefit to lowering the temperature. Even overclocked, over-volted CPUs last until obsolescence unless it's taken to the extreme.

I'm all for modding and customization, but I don't see the value in lowering the CPU core temp by 5-10C if it's going to sit at stock and last for 10 years either way.

If you were going to overclock with water or exotic cooling, then I would swing the other way.
 
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:02 pm

bfg-9000 has a good point. If you care THAT much about temps then just undervolt a CPU you buy from an etailer and you'll likely see better results.

If you are going to buy a de-lidded CPU that is only guaranteed to run at stock frequency then they should be offering a discount, not charging you extra for a voided warranty.
 
Doctor Venture
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:27 pm

Flying Fox wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
If you are not planning to overclock, you are WAAAY over-thinking this. Just buy a stock chip and use it as-is.

Unless his "normal" use case is all about running AVX2 code all day. :o


LOL! Not unless Juniper, Cisco, Arista, Alcatel/Nokia, CumulusVX, DevStack, Ansible, et al snuck some AVX2 code in there. :D Normally, I'm busy practicing for some SP and DC cert exams in my spare time, and attempting to built and run small portions of data centers on my current pitiful PC (I still need to see if XRv 9K, vQFX, or NX-OSv 9K can do PBB or SPB, along with EVPN + VXLAN).

Today, I got roped into helping a good friend build a bunch of Qemu VMs, since he's based his courses off using Docker containers, which means his students lose all their work, as soon as they power the containers down (none of them know how to make an updated copy of their containers). I've been building Ansible, Puppet, SaltStack, Ganglia+Graphite, ZTP, NAPALM, DevStack, and a host of other Qemu VMs using the Alpine-virt .iso. At least with the VMs, unless they screw the pooch, they won't lose any data just from powering the VM off.

Now, once I get that threadripper workstation (or if some kind soul gifts me with a 2P Epyc server with 1TB RAM), then all bets are off! :P
 
Doctor Venture
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:44 pm

just brew it! wrote:
If you are not planning to overclock, you are WAAAY over-thinking this. Just buy a stock chip and use it as-is.


I'm guessing I didn't explain my line of thinking well at all, or I'm just wrong no matter what.

Basically, that KL PC is going to go on a microATX mobo, within either a Carbide 240, a Fractal Node 804, or at most, this Cooler Master HAF XB EVO.

Given that the Kaby Lakes are specc'd up to 100C (but throttle at less), and people early on were mentioning that delidding their chips, fixing the seal, and replacing the TIM could result in a 10-20C drop in CPU temp, that sounded like a good idea. Especially since I'm planning on loading out that case with as much RAM as the motherboard will allow, and both the CPU and the 1070 or 1080 GPU would both be rocking a CLC to cool themselves, I can imagine that a TON of heat will get pushed back into the case, raising it well above ambient temp. I'm not sure if the folks I've seen do this are correct (it kinda make sense, when I think about it), but they mount the CLC radiators in reverse, so the colder room temp air gets pulled into the radiator to help cool down the GPU or CPU, but that also means the heat exchange gets pushed back into the case. Even if I just stuck with the stock KL 4.2GHz speed, shaving off a fair amount of temps would be great.

And in case anyone is going to ask, once I get the TR worktstation, I'll have two massive HAF towers on my desk (and some extra monitors), so I really want a smaller gaming PC, so it'll fit.
 
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:53 pm

I would have no problem running a CPU at 95C continuously, and have never heard of an unoverclocked KL running that hot no matter how bad the case is, except the laptop ones. Those run that hot by design.

Keep in mind that the delid does not violate the laws of thermodynamics and reduce the heat going into the case at all. It only speeds the heat being moved that first 1/8" off the cores.
 
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:37 am

Yeah, reversing the radiators should reduce CPU/GPU temps a bit, but will probably make everything else (RAM, chipset, VRMs, storage devices...) run hotter by raising the air temp inside the case. Again, unless you're planning to OC or otherwise push the CPU really hard (100% load 24x7), I don't see the point.
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bfg-9000
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:14 am

While I'd rather have the CPU run hotter than all those other things, I can think of one reason it can be better to suck rather than blow.

It makes it really easy to dust the radiators because you could even vacuum them from outside the case, without even having to open it up.
 
Doctor Venture
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:47 am

bfg-9000 wrote:
While I'd rather have the CPU run hotter than all those other things, I can think of one reason it can be better to suck rather than blow.

It makes it really easy to dust the radiators because you could even vacuum them from outside the case, without even having to open it up.



Okay, then. Since you feel strongly about sticking with a stock speed Kaby Lake, how about this?

I'm still going to save up several grand for that Threadripper I seriously need, ASAP. Once I can get a stock KL, in either a Carbide 240, Fractal Mode 804. or a HAF XB EVO, along a ton of Noctua case fans. as well as a. CLC for both the CPU, and one either for the 1070 or 17080 GPU; I'll be able to swing it by then, .

So how does this sound? If that stock, non-,modified KL dies in 8 months without myself or anyone I know touching the PC, you would owe me a new KL., Sound like plan?
 
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Wed Aug 23, 2017 9:53 am

You can run your CPU at throttling temps day in and day out at 100% load for years...it's not going to die.
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Doctor Venture
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:26 am

just brew it! wrote:
Yeah, reversing the radiators should reduce CPU/GPU temps a bit, but will probably make everything else (RAM, chipset, VRMs, storage devices...) run hotter by raising the air temp inside the case. Again, unless you're planning to OC or otherwise push the CPU really hard (100% load 24x7), I don't see the point.


I was kinda curious why one of Tech Reports folks did it with his Kraken (I think), but when mentioned that it would pull cool air off a chunk of the radiator, udet kinda make sense.

Then again, a buddy of mine I work remotely with, were roundly mocking this case: It;s fugly enough, but is that double-helix resevoir actually supporsed to do ANYTHING:!:
Since TinyPic and imgur don't feel like showing the picture, the worst case is you could look for the Deep Cool Genome II on NewEgg/

Bah! It hates that picture. The stupid case is here: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product. ... 6811853048

Now, while $2800 is too much for the Corsair One. I actually like the case, and think it looks like it leapt out of Tron. (make sure you scroll down, so you can see the Corsair case open up)
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Doctor Venture
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:43 am

Waco wrote:
You can run your CPU at throttling temps day in and day out at 100% load for years...it's not going to die.



Well, yeah. My Sandy Bridge has been doing just that for the last 6 years. The difference, is that the IHS is sealed on tighter, and my Sandy Bridge uses solder, not the cheap TIM they switched to with Ivy Bridge.
 
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:50 pm

Doctor Venture wrote:
Then again, a buddy of mine I work remotely with, were roundly mocking this case: It;s fugly enough, but is that double-helix resevoir actually supporsed to do ANYTHING:!:


Reservoirs in general don't really do anything at least as far as temperatures are concerned. They just make it a bit easier to fill and bleed the loop. If there's no fillport or other kind of easy access to that double-helix thing, then I wouldn't even call it a reservoir, but just some decorative tubing built into the case.
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Waco
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:52 pm

Doctor Venture wrote:
Waco wrote:
You can run your CPU at throttling temps day in and day out at 100% load for years...it's not going to die.



Well, yeah. My Sandy Bridge has been doing just that for the last 6 years. The difference, is that the IHS is sealed on tighter, and my Sandy Bridge uses solder, not the cheap TIM they switched to with Ivy Bridge.

It still doesn't make any real difference. 100C is 100C if you're measuring at the die - it won't hurt it to throttle for years. That's *why* the throttling point is 100C, not 110C, or 120C. Sure, it'll degrade the chip faster than at 70C, but not in any meaningful way that'll matter inside of 10 years.
Redocbew wrote:
Doctor Venture wrote:
Then again, a buddy of mine I work remotely with, were roundly mocking this case: It;s fugly enough, but is that double-helix resevoir actually supporsed to do ANYTHING:!:


Reservoirs in general don't really do anything at least as far as temperatures are concerned. They just make it a bit easier to fill and bleed the loop. If there's no fillport or other kind of easy access to that double-helix thing, then I wouldn't even call it a reservoir, but just some decorative tubing built into the case.

Agreed. Reservoirs only slow the inevitable and give a place for bubbles to collect without being circulated.
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Re: About Silicon Lottery

Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Doctor Venture wrote:
Okay, then. Since you feel strongly about sticking with a stock speed Kaby Lake, how about this?

So how does this sound? If that stock, non-,modified KL dies in 8 months without myself or anyone I know touching the PC, you would owe me a new KL., Sound like plan?

If a non-overclocked, non-delidded Kaby Lake dies within 8 months, then I will tell you to get it replaced for free under the 3-year warranty because it was obviously defective. How does that sound?

And I'm definitely not one to advocate running anything at stock speed, unless the cooling system is so thermally constrained there is no other choice, such as in a laptop. What makes you think a liquid cooling system will perform so poorly that the CPU will throttle all of the time at stock speed? More importantly, if you think the cooling system will be that bad, why would you buy it? My post you quoted only suggests the reverse flow you describe would, in addition to cooling the CPU and GPU better, also be more convenient to use and maintain. As JBI pointed out this could come at some cost to the lifespan of the motherboard and everything else in the case but that hardly means the even better cooled CPU could only be run at stock speeds.

Even if you don't intend to overclock right away, it's good to have the option available for years later near the end of its useful life, when you might need just a little more oomph. How much you can overclock depends on the ASIC quality, or margin, of the chip. I've been saying all along in this thread that it seems dumb to pay extra for a chip guaranteed to have no margin and only run at stock speed and no more so you won't have that option. Especially when just $15 more would get a delidded random sample that might.

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