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chuckula
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:34 am

I think some of the FUD being spread around doesn't survive the light of actual testing, and that includes synthetic benchmarks where the KPTI performance hit is supposed to be "catastrophic".

For example: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... arks&num=1
Note that all systems were using fixes for both Meltdown and Spectre with the AMD systems not being "crippled" by KPTI.

Even in things like PostgreSQL Bench -- which was touted as the be-all end-all proof that Intel is DOOMED -- Compile Bench*, Apache, etc. the world isn't coming to an end.

* A benchmark that might not be such a favorite of the AMD crowd where the post-"crippled" Coffee Lake chip easily beats the "non-crippled" Epyc 7601... perspective people.
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:47 am

chuckula wrote:
I think some of the FUD being spread around doesn't survive the light of actual testing, and that includes synthetic benchmarks where the KPTI performance hit is supposed to be "catastrophic".

The "real world" load graph that SuperSpy linked looks pretty bad though. So it looks like there are at least some non-synthetic use cases which are hit pretty hard.
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SuperSpy
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:06 am

I'd expect that graph I linked to be pretty close to worst case though, because that cluster is basically doing queries into MSSQL (CCP is a Windows shop) and dumping them out on the network (probably using IIS, but I've never seen CCP comfirm that) so it's really syscall-heavy.
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:37 am

Right. My point is that it's not a synthetic test, and yet it is still getting hit really hard. There are certainly other similar workloads which will be similarly affected, unless a less costly version of the mitigation is devised.
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:45 pm

Glorious wrote:
the wrote:
Intel will likely push Cascade Lake into 2019 due to this bug or simply cancel it in favor Cannon Lake-SP in 2019 which is still on the roadmap last I heard. The rumors are pointing toward Cascade Lake as being a Sky Lake-SP update still on 14 nm due to delays in 10 nm production. One big new feature in Cascade Lake was to fix to support Optane DIMMS, a feature Intel removed at the last minute for Sky Lake-SP due to a bug found in validation. I see it as incredibly unwise to release Cascade Lake and Optane DIMMs if it is still susceptible to Meltdown or Spectre.


Why would Intel cancel anything? They're going to be shipping "flawed" silicon in the interim anyway.

This; the market needs its stream of x86 CPUs, moreso than had been planned for if it does turn out that the performance impact of patches for these issues is high.

AMD could sell all the EPYCs that GF can produce, but the market will need a lot of Intel CPUs this year and next and ...
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:39 pm

the wrote:
Intel will likely push Cascade Lake into 2019 due to this bug or simply cancel it in favor Cannon Lake-SP in 2019 which is still on the roadmap last I heard. The rumors are pointing toward Cascade Lake as being a Sky Lake-SP update still on 14 nm due to delays in 10 nm production. One big new feature in Cascade Lake was to fix to support Optane DIMMS, a feature Intel removed at the last minute for Sky Lake-SP due to a bug found in validation. I see it as incredibly unwise to release Cascade Lake and Optane DIMMs if it is still susceptible to Meltdown or Spectre.


I agree that Intel's roadmap is already a mess but I certainly don't see Intel delaying chip launches because they are Meltdown vulnerable. There is no point to doing so after they launched Coffee and Sky-X, or the RX Vega M part.

AMD is still releasing chips with an aggressive roadmap laid out for 2018, and Intel is so far behind on it's roadmap that they may incur additional problems "taking a year off" by not launching products for partners to build platforms around. If Intel can't readily update the uArch itself, then I expect Intel will simply use it's microcode/software patches to mitigate meltdown and launch its chips anyway.
 
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:06 am

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4056892/windows-10-update-kb4056892?ranMID=24542&ranEAID=nOD%2FrLJHOac&ranSiteID=nOD_rLJHOac-T4HFDD4IA8m_R5rpVHsPKw&tduid=(4f8fd051ba6f771f06d1cb7f4161fc1a)(256380)(2459594)(nOD_rLJHOac-T4HFDD4IA8m_R5rpVHsPKw)()

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/hel ... based-devi

Some people with AMD CPUs were apparently applying the updates for these bugs and the result was a computer that wouldn't boot anymore. Microsoft...responded.

Microsoft wrote:
Microsoft has reports of customers with some AMD devices getting into an unbootable state after installing recent Windows operating system security updates. After investigating, Microsoft has determined that some AMD chipsets do not conform to the documentation previously provided to Microsoft to develop the Windows operating system mitigations to protect against the chipset vulnerabilities known as Spectre and Meltdown. To prevent AMD customers from getting into an unbootable state, Microsoft will temporarily pause sending the following Windows operating system updates to devices with impacted AMD processors at this time: (a long list of KBs followed that I won't add)


Not a great look for Microsoft, but probably a worse look for AMD.
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:13 am

DancinJack wrote:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4056892/windows-10-update-kb4056892?ranMID=24542&ranEAID=nOD%2FrLJHOac&ranSiteID=nOD_rLJHOac-T4HFDD4IA8m_R5rpVHsPKw&tduid=(4f8fd051ba6f771f06d1cb7f4161fc1a)(256380)(2459594)(nOD_rLJHOac-T4HFDD4IA8m_R5rpVHsPKw)()

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/hel ... based-devi

Some people with AMD CPUs were apparently applying the updates for these bugs and the result was a computer that wouldn't boot anymore. Microsoft...responded.

Microsoft wrote:
Microsoft has reports of customers with some AMD devices getting into an unbootable state after installing recent Windows operating system security updates. After investigating, Microsoft has determined that some AMD chipsets do not conform to the documentation previously provided to Microsoft to develop the Windows operating system mitigations to protect against the chipset vulnerabilities known as Spectre and Meltdown. To prevent AMD customers from getting into an unbootable state, Microsoft will temporarily pause sending the following Windows operating system updates to devices with impacted AMD processors at this time: (a long list of KBs followed that I won't add)


Not a great look for Microsoft, but probably a worse look for AMD.


https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/win ... f36?auth=1
From the above thread, it looks like the update is only bricking really old K8-based systems (Athlon 64 and A64-X2). K10/Phenom and newer appear to be just fine.
 
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:18 am

In a perverse way, that's actually reassuring in that it explains the weird BSOD (followed by boot problems) my wife's system got earlier this week. At least it's just AMD/Microsoft being stupid, not failing hardware. :lol:
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:29 am

DancinJack wrote:
Not a great look for Microsoft, but probably a worse look for AMD.

Most people will blame Microsoft, since the patch came from them.

setaG_lliB wrote:
From the above thread, it looks like the update is only bricking really old K8-based systems (Athlon 64 and A64-X2). K10/Phenom and newer appear to be just fine.

Don't have time to read the thread right now, but my wife's system is an AM2 system. If it's really a chipset compatibility issue, then K10/Phenom may be affected as well depending on the age of motherboard they are installed in.

Edit: Which also reminds me, I've got an unused Phenom II (due to the retirement a while back of my basement web server). I should probably upgrade her CPU. TBH the X2 is still fine for what she does on her PC, but I might as well give her a couple more cores and squeeze another year or two out of that box. (It already got an SSD upgrade a couple of years ago.)
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SuperSpy
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:22 am

just brew it! wrote:
Most people will blame Microsoft, since the patch came from them.

It's Microsoft's perpetual curse. Vendor does something undocumented or stupid, MS updates Windows, previously harmless but stupid thing breaks computer, user blames MS. It's a large part of why MS is so scared of changing anything.
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:36 am

If Microsoft's statement is true (and they're not just trying to throw AMD under the bus), this one sounds like a cooperative screwup.
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:36 am

ludi wrote:
A human-interest piece on the various researchers that found these flaws, from Wired:

https://www.wired.com/story/meltdown-sp ... -discovery


Thanks, neat link, I've been reading so many other things about it, this was refreshing.
 
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:24 am

SuperSpy wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Most people will blame Microsoft, since the patch came from them.

It's Microsoft's perpetual curse. Vendor does something undocumented or stupid, MS updates Windows, previously harmless but stupid thing breaks computer, user blames MS. It's a large part of why MS is so scared of changing anything.


And it wasn't found in testing? Sounds 100% like a shared screw up. Users pay Microsoft in large part to vet these things for them.
 
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:53 am

mudcore wrote:
SuperSpy wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Most people will blame Microsoft, since the patch came from them.

It's Microsoft's perpetual curse. Vendor does something undocumented or stupid, MS updates Windows, previously harmless but stupid thing breaks computer, user blames MS. It's a large part of why MS is so scared of changing anything.

And it wasn't found in testing? Sounds 100% like a shared screw up. Users pay Microsoft in large part to vet these things for them.

SHIP IT!!!
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:34 pm

just brew it! wrote:
mudcore wrote:
SuperSpy wrote:
It's Microsoft's perpetual curse. Vendor does something undocumented or stupid, MS updates Windows, previously harmless but stupid thing breaks computer, user blames MS. It's a large part of why MS is so scared of changing anything.

And it wasn't found in testing? Sounds 100% like a shared screw up. Users pay Microsoft in large part to vet these things for them.

SHIP IT!!!


JUST DO IT!

Back on topic, it does appear that MS pushed out the patches a week or so early, hence removing some debug time.
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chuckula
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:51 pm

PC Perspective ran a few storage tests (including Optane): https://www.pcper.com/news/Storage/Melt ... ally-Issue

Short version: There's an impact but it's not catastrophically bad and ironically the 900P SSD actually saw a small reduction in latency that I'm not saying is caused by the Meltdown fix but is more indicative of the Meltdown fix not being catastropically bad.
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SuperSpy
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:18 pm

I really wish those tests would include CPU usage instead of just IOPs. If the CPU can keep up with the SSD, it's not going to have a very large impact on the IOPs.
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:21 pm

chuckula wrote:
PC Perspective ran a few storage tests (including Optane): https://www.pcper.com/news/Storage/Melt ... ally-Issue

Short version: There's an impact but it's not catastrophically bad and ironically the 900P SSD actually saw a small reduction in latency that I'm not saying is caused by the Meltdown fix but is more indicative of the Meltdown fix not being catastropically bad.


I don't trust those results for one second. Not to dig on PC Perspective, but there's no way what they're claiming is true - something else it at work there.

We're seeing 5-25% drops in performance for a lot of the workloads we run. Anything that does intensive I/O (network or disk) is seeing a pretty significant impact.
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:37 pm

Waco wrote:
chuckula wrote:
PC Perspective ran a few storage tests (including Optane): https://www.pcper.com/news/Storage/Melt ... ally-Issue

Short version: There's an impact but it's not catastrophically bad and ironically the 900P SSD actually saw a small reduction in latency that I'm not saying is caused by the Meltdown fix but is more indicative of the Meltdown fix not being catastropically bad.


I don't trust those results for one second. Not to dig on PC Perspective, but there's no way what they're claiming is true - something else it at work there.

We're seeing 5-25% drops in performance for a lot of the workloads we run. Anything that does intensive I/O (network or disk) is seeing a pretty significant impact.

Same here. After installing the patch on my Haswell work laptop, WinRAR and 7-Zip decompression of archives containing thousands of very small files took a noticeable performance hit. During decompression, the task manager reports very high kernel CPU usage--although to be fair, I didn't really look at kernel processor usage before the update.
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chuckula
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:50 pm

Waco wrote:
chuckula wrote:
PC Perspective ran a few storage tests (including Optane): https://www.pcper.com/news/Storage/Melt ... ally-Issue

Short version: There's an impact but it's not catastrophically bad and ironically the 900P SSD actually saw a small reduction in latency that I'm not saying is caused by the Meltdown fix but is more indicative of the Meltdown fix not being catastropically bad.


I don't trust those results for one second. Not to dig on PC Perspective, but there's no way what they're claiming is true - something else it at work there.

We're seeing 5-25% drops in performance for a lot of the workloads we run. Anything that does intensive I/O (network or disk) is seeing a pretty significant impact.


That article uses a Kaby Lake CPU that presumably has full PCID support (including INVPCID). Are your servers also of skylake or newer generation or are they Haswell/Broadwell era (or older) machines? Additionally, I'm assuming your storage system is not just hanging off the chipset like on a consumer device. Is there an interaction with the storage controller that could be unhappy with the patches?
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Waco
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:46 pm

chuckula wrote:
That article uses a Kaby Lake CPU that presumably has full PCID support (including INVPCID). Are your servers also of skylake or newer generation or are they Haswell/Broadwell era (or older) machines? Additionally, I'm assuming your storage system is not just hanging off the chipset like on a consumer device. Is there an interaction with the storage controller that could be unhappy with the patches?

Servers are a mix of Haswell and Broadwell Xeons. Slowdowns are client-side only (Lustre, NFS, MPI workloads), since we aren't patching our non-user facing servers. Syscalls all have additional overhead that's worsened if you don't have free CPU cycles - if you do, the impact is somewhat minimal if your workloads aren't latency-sensitive.

I believe PC Perspective's "things go faster" is a side effect of the CPU clocks being bumped due to the additional load (though they do claim to have disabled C states). Benchmarking storage hardware is *hard*.
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:26 pm

Just check out the Phoronix benches ya nerds (of course remember they're running everything on Linux, but that makes sense for webservers and the such that may be impacted). These should give a clearer view of what might happen to some of the big cloud providers.

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... arks&num=1
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... line&num=1 (obv I doubt anyone is running clear linux on their server but it's still interesting to see the results)
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... ned-Ubuntu
http://openbenchmarking.org/result/1801 ... PTIRETPO87

The NGINX and Apache benchmarks are not encouraging.
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:01 pm

I can confirm that Ivy Bridge and older systems, that do have PCID but not INVPCID, are considered to lack hardware acceleration by the Microsoft patch.
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:50 am

BTW, here's the BSOD you got if you're one of the unfortunate people who still have a K8-based system and installed the MS Meltdown/Spectre patch before MS blacklisted them:
Image
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:11 am

just brew it! wrote:
BTW, here's the BSOD you got if you're one of the unfortunate people who still have a K8-based system and installed the MS Meltdown/Spectre patch before MS blacklisted them:
Image

It's almost as useful as the Windows 10 "Something Happened" bsod. :)
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:41 am

Waco wrote:
It's almost as useful as the Windows 10 "Something Happened" bsod. :)

I'd say it is pretty darned close to being the logical equivalent.
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:24 pm

Intel published client impact assessment benchmarks, impact is +6 to -21% AFAICT.

Obviously, these are close to besst-case as they are all with CPU well above mid-range let alone low-end, and all Skylake or newer.
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:58 pm

Topinio wrote:
Intel published client impact assessment benchmarks, impact is +6 to -21% AFAICT.

Obviously, these are close to besst-case as they are all with CPU well above mid-range let alone low-end, and all Skylake or newer.


Good news! Ice Lake can be up to 20% faster than Coffee Lake*!


* In benchmarks where we had to drop Coffee Lake's performance by 20% to fix this bug.
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Re: Intel Processor bug incoming?

Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:11 pm

20% is 20%, however you get it... :lol:
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