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cphite
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:58 pm

End User wrote:
cphite wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:
Those who would give up essential fidelity to gain temporary freedom deserve neither fidelity nor freedom.


+10

-11


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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:19 pm

End User wrote:
cphite wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:
Those who would give up essential fidelity to gain temporary freedom deserve neither fidelity nor freedom.


+10

-11

"These Bluetooth earbuds go to minus eleven!"
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Redocbew
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:24 pm

End User wrote:
ptsant wrote:
instead of the ridiculous Geekbench joke that makes an iPhone look faster than a 28-core Xeon.

Link to that result.


You would rather Geekbench be known as a benchmark which is only slightly terrible?
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chuckula
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:33 pm

Redocbew wrote:
End User wrote:
ptsant wrote:
instead of the ridiculous Geekbench joke that makes an iPhone look faster than a 28-core Xeon.

Link to that result.


You would rather Geekbench be known as a benchmark which is only slightly terrible?


Geekbench is so bad that I -- an alleged Intel fanboy -- actually gave Threadripper credit for "winning" it over the 7960X since Threadripper had a lower score.
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End User
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:14 pm

Redocbew wrote:
End User wrote:
ptsant wrote:
instead of the ridiculous Geekbench joke that makes an iPhone look faster than a 28-core Xeon.

Link to that result.


You would rather Geekbench be known as a benchmark which is only slightly terrible?

Forget about Geekbench. ARM has been knocking on Intel's door for a while now. Once the mobile constraints are lifted ARM is going to be a monster.
 
chuckula
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:30 pm

End User wrote:
Redocbew wrote:
End User wrote:
Link to that result.


You would rather Geekbench be known as a benchmark which is only slightly terrible?

Forget about Geekbench. ARM has been knocking on Intel's door for a while now. Once the mobile constraints are lifted ARM is going to be a monster.


Meanwhile, on planet Earth: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... core&num=1
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End User
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:08 pm

chuckula wrote:
End User wrote:
Redocbew wrote:

You would rather Geekbench be known as a benchmark which is only slightly terrible?

Forget about Geekbench. ARM has been knocking on Intel's door for a while now. Once the mobile constraints are lifted ARM is going to be a monster.


Meanwhile, on planet Earth: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... core&num=1

Very interesting benchmarks. Thanks for sharing.

The Cavium ThunderX SoC in those benchmarks uses 64-bit ARMv8 cores, manufactured on a 28nm process. The last Apple ARM based SoC that was on the 28nm process was the A7 back in 2013.

The current A10X (10nm) has over 3x the single core performance of the A7. Cavium states that their 2nd gen 16nm X2 product delivers 2-3X higher performance than that of the ThunderX shown in the benchmarks you linked to.

Very interesting indeed. The pace of progress is staggering. This bodes well for ARM in both laptops and on the desktop.
 
chuckula
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:21 pm

End User wrote:
chuckula wrote:
End User wrote:
Forget about Geekbench. ARM has been knocking on Intel's door for a while now. Once the mobile constraints are lifted ARM is going to be a monster.


Meanwhile, on planet Earth: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... core&num=1

Very interesting benchmarks. Thanks for sharing.

The Cavium ThunderX SoC in those benchmarks uses 64-bit ARMv8 cores, manufactured on a 28nm process. The last Apple ARM based SoC that was on the 28nm process was the A7 back in 2013.

The current A10X (10nm) has over 3x the single core performance of the A7. Cavium states that their 2nd gen 16nm X2 product delivers 2-3X higher performance.

Very interesting indeed. The pace of progress is staggering. This bodes well for ARM in laptops and on the desktop.


Yeah, keep drinking the koolaid. As for the A10X being "over 3X the single core performance of the A7" it sure doesn't seem to show up in the complaints about iOS performance that have been coming out recently.

But let's make a friendly bet: Since ARM is so magical and great, a 2020 Apple Miracle chip should beat a 2020 Tigerton across the board in single-threaded workloads with a 1GHz clock speed deficit. As for multithread, a 4-core Apple Miracle Chip should be at least as fast as an 8 core Tigerton.

I mean, given your level of delusion, a single-core Apple magic-chip ought to be easily equivalent to an 8-core Skylake X running in multi-threaded operations, so I'm intentionally stacking the odds in Apple's favor here.
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End User
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:46 pm

chuckula wrote:
Yeah, keep drinking the koolaid. As for the A10X being "over 3X the single core performance of the A7" it sure doesn't seem to show up in the complaints about iOS performance that have been coming out recently.

Please tell me you are not referring to iPhone batteries and performance. If you are that is just really, really lame.

chuckula wrote:
But let's make a friendly bet: Since ARM is so magical and great, a 2020 Apple Miracle chip should beat a 2020 Tigerton across the board in single-threaded workloads with a 1GHz clock speed deficit. As for multithread, a 4-core Apple Miracle Chip should be at least as fast as an 8 core Tigerton.

Your version of a friendly bet sounds really weird and creepy. I'm scared.

chuckula wrote:
I mean, given your level of delusion, a single-core Apple magic-chip ought to be easily equivalent to an 8-core Skylake X running in multi-threaded operations, so I'm intentionally stacking the odds in Apple's favor here.

You linked to a set of benchmarks that showed an outdated ARM config showing some really interesting results. We already know that ARM performance has moved on by leaps and bounds from the benchmarks you linked to. You laid things bare for the world to see. ARM rocks. You're awesome. Thanks!
 
Redocbew
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:52 pm

To add on to JBI's point from earlier: while there isn't any technical reason I know of for why a chip from ARM couldn't be successful on the desktop there also isn't any reason I can think of for why one would be particularly suited to the desktop. What you're calling "ARM performance" is really just a bunch of engineers who are good at doing their jobs, and they happen to be making ARM chips for whoever needs them instead of x86 chips for AMD or Intel.
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End User
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:55 pm

Redocbew wrote:
To add on to JBI's point from earlier: while there isn't any technical reason I know of for why a chip from ARM couldn't be successful on the desktop there also isn't any reason I can think of for why one would be particularly suited to the desktop. What you're calling "ARM performance" is really just a bunch of engineers who are good at doing their jobs, and they happen to be making ARM chips for whoever needs them instead of x86 chips for AMD or Intel.

Meanwhile Apple engineers happen to be making ARM chips so that Apple can kick ass.
 
Redocbew
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:02 pm

Kicking ass(or at least the appearance of kicking ass) is generally what's required in order to become a megacorp, but what that means for any kind of future product is still anybody's guess. :P
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End User
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:30 pm

From all reports Windows 10 run very well on the Snapdragon 835 (I'm just referring to the OS - not the crappy x86 emulation crap*). The 835 is a previous gen design that does not perform as well as the A11 Bionic SoC in my iPhone X. One does not need to be overly bright to read the tea leaves.


* My beef is with Windows being on ARM in first place (Windows on x64 forever!). On the other-hand, I want Apple to move completely to ARM - Intel begone! If you can't sort that out don't bug me about it (basically the reverse of this(Intel->ARM) minus Boot Camp.
 
Redocbew
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:49 pm

One does also not need to be overly bright to recognize Intel as a manufacturing company that happens to make microprocessors. If they're having trouble making chips at the process sizes required for a modern desktop chip, then you can expect everyone else to have similar problems regardless of the ISA the chip is built on.
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bthylafh
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:03 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
End User wrote:
Usacomp2k3 wrote:
We reached "good enough" computer for most tasks, especially media consumption back in the Haswell era.

I was thinking Core 2 Duo.

The i5-2500K was a big step over the dual core C2D's. Now the C2Q like the Q6600? Maybe.


Oh yeah. Sandy had a ton more IPC than C2Q did, to say nothing of the huge overclocks the i5-2500K could get; I retired mine in December but if I hadn't had a little spending money right then I could easily have gone another year or two on it. 4.3 GHz on the stock cooler all day long, baby.
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:09 pm

Redocbew wrote:
To add on to JBI's point from earlier: while there isn't any technical reason I know of for why a chip from ARM couldn't be successful on the desktop there also isn't any reason I can think of for why one would be particularly suited to the desktop.


I have a hunch that for ARM on the desktop to really shine (at least vs. Intel), you'd need a ton of cores plus workloads that can be heavily parallelized. Maybe Apple could swing that because of how integrated their stack is (and Grand Central Dispatch, to a lesser degree) and how little they care about back compatibility. I bet they could put together a decent Macbook with a big.LITTLE setup.
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:23 pm

bthylafh wrote:
Redocbew wrote:
To add on to JBI's point from earlier: while there isn't any technical reason I know of for why a chip from ARM couldn't be successful on the desktop there also isn't any reason I can think of for why one would be particularly suited to the desktop.

I have a hunch that for ARM on the desktop to really shine (at least vs. Intel), you'd need a ton of cores plus workloads that can be heavily parallelized. Maybe Apple could swing that because of how integrated their stack is (and Grand Central Dispatch, to a lesser degree) and how little they care about back compatibility. I bet they could put together a decent Macbook with a big.LITTLE setup.

I just don't get this mentality. There's nothing magical about x86/x86-64 ISA from a performance standpoint. The variable-length instruction encoding can give it a slight edge over architectures with fixed-width instructions since it requires less memory bandwidth to fetch code from DRAM, but that's about it.
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Glorious
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:35 am

Redocbew wrote:
To add on to JBI's point from earlier: while there isn't any technical reason I know of for why a chip from ARM couldn't be successful on the desktop there also isn't any reason I can think of for why one would be particularly suited to the desktop. What you're calling "ARM performance" is really just a bunch of engineers who are good at doing their jobs, and they happen to be making ARM chips for whoever needs them instead of x86 chips for AMD or Intel.


Yeah, exactly.

As JBI has said, it's not the ISA.

To extend what you said, it's that they both have untold billions of dollars in budget/resources and excellent & experienced engineers with the ability to poach/recruit the best ones out there.

As an organization, Apple also seems more than capable of making the right choices and not sabotaging themselves with internal bureaucratic chicanery.

So, yes, Apple can definitely make a competitive ARM (whether single or multi-threaded) chip. Maybe even a slightly better one given a few iterations. But the idea that they are just going to blow Intel out of the water because of the "magic of ARM" is insane ( and vice versa with Apple and x86)

There is no such thing.
 
End User
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:10 am

Glorious wrote:
But the idea that they are just going to blow Intel out of the water because of the "magic of ARM" is insane

Performance on par with Intel is the only thing Apple needs to accomplish initially.

There are strong hints that Apple has already achieved this with its mobile ARM variants (i carry examples of that around with me every day).

As I said in another post, Windows 10 on ARM (the native code portion of that product) runs well on a previous gen mobile ARM SoC. The writing is on the wall.
 
Glorious
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:30 am

End User wrote:
Performance on par with Intel is the only thing Apple needs to accomplish initially.


Which they obviously will, or something? And then the second release will be better, because of course?

End User wrote:
There are strong hints that Apple has already achieved this with its mobile ARM variants (i carry examples of that around with me every day).


I can't argue with vague belief, so I'm not even going to try.

End User wrote:
As I said in another post, Windows 10 on ARM (the native code portion of that product) runs well on a previous gen mobile ARM SoC. The writing is on the wall.


This is where you ignorance derails you: ARM is an instruction set.

It is not a processor.

At this point, the instruction set is almost entirely incidental to the performance of the chip that uses it.

Saying that Apple will make an *APPLE* ARM chip for *APPLE* products means nothing when it comes to ARM generically: It won't make the innumerable pre-existing ARM processors from other vendors that perform poorly magically perform better.

So while it is good for *APPLE* and bad for *INTEL* (who will sell few chips to Apple), it doesn't really mean much of anything for ARM: These chips could be, and in practice basically *are* "Apple" instruction set processors. Apple products are infamously proprietary.

ARM has simply not taken over the datacenter world at all, despite the concern about power usage and how the major vendors who buy literal truckloads of these chips could (and likely already have) ported their entire stack over to it.

That's a huge bellwether for ARM superiority, and despite a lot of hype these last 4 or so years, it has come to naught.

But sure, back to your "hints" and conflation of low-power performance with high-power performance.
 
Glorious
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:16 am

To be clear, I can totally believe that apple with ship an ARM-based Macbook air or whatever in 2020. If I were apple, I'd be pushing for it, hard. Those mobile Intel-U processors, despite whatever discount Apple gets, are not cheap. Intel has to be making a fortune: The high/low CPU option literally brackets the absolute top-line consumer desktop one when it comes to price, and they're tiny.

Apple can almost certainly make a competitive ARM chip in that category, and it really only has to be *loosely* competitive when it comes to performance anyway: decent speed/size memory, fast SSD, good to go! These things aren't made for their compute power, after all. Low temps, long life, yay! Meh if occasionally things take 500 ms longer.

Bam! They are saving something like 100-200 dollars per device.

As I said a year ago:

Glorious wrote:
Apple can choose whatever hardware it likes, as it has switched between 3 different architectures in my lifetime and could easily (for the macbook airs or something) switch to a fourth for the low-end. The vast majority of people would literally not even notice.


I was serious. Virtually everyone I know with a macbook air would not even notice. Unless they are in a slap-fight with Apple, Google will have Chrome natively available for it at launch, and all the other software they use is native Apple or interpreted anyway.
 
End User
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:39 am

Glorious wrote:
Saying that Apple will make an *APPLE* ARM chip for *APPLE* products means nothing when it comes to ARM generically: It won't make the innumerable pre-existing ARM processors from other vendors that perform poorly magically perform better.

Exactly. I don't give a fig about other vendors. Neither does Apple.

Glorious wrote:
ARM has simply not taken over the datacenter world at all, despite the concern about power usage and how the major vendors who buy literal truckloads of these chips could (and likely already have) ported their entire stack over to it.

Irrelevant.

Glorious wrote:
But sure, back to your "hints" and conflation of low-power performance with high-power performance.

I'll just come out and say it. The A11 Bionic is roughly equivalent to an i3-7100.
 
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:47 am

End User wrote:
I'll just come out and say it. The A11 Bionic is roughly equivalent to an i3-7100.

Which makes it your claim to prove.
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whm1974
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:54 am

Captain Ned wrote:
End User wrote:
I'll just come out and say it. The A11 Bionic is roughly equivalent to an i3-7100.

Which makes it your claim to prove.

Which is a pretty tall and bold claim to make. Based off what, Geekbench?
 
Glorious
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:57 am

End User wrote:
Exactly. I don't give a fig about other vendors. Neither does Apple.


For one thing, this is a false statement. You do "give a fig".

You explicitly said the writing was on the wall in regards to Windows 10 and ARM.

Here, let me help you:

End User wrote:
Windows 10 on ARM (the native code portion of that product) runs well on a previous gen mobile ARM SoC. The writing is on the wall.


For another thing, this observation of yours was literally my previous point:

Glorious" wrote:
Saying that Apple will make an *APPLE* ARM chip for *APPLE* products means nothing when it comes to ARM generically:


I said this because it's contrary to what you've been spouting here.

Let me help you out, yet again:

End User wrote:
ARM has been knocking on Intel's door for a while now. Once the mobile constraints are lifted ARM is going to be a monster.


It's not ARM at all, it's just Apple.

And it's not Apple knocking on Intel's door, no. It is simply Apple closing *THEIR* door to Intel.

For a product line that is sales-stagnating at best, and for which Apple is ridiculed about being totally disinterested in when it comes to the higher-tiers.

AGAIN: I think a macbook air in 2020 is eminently plausible and it something I would do myself as the CEO of Apple. I explicitly said all that.

I'm just rejecting your inane fanboyism, especially the part of it were you are so delusional that you plainly pretend that you didn't make the grandiose statements you JUST DID.

End User wrote:
I'll just come out and say it. The A11 Bionic is roughly equivalent to an i3-7100.


Good for you. I'm glad you have something to believe in.

I won't even dispute it, I'm going to meta-dispute it: this is a wishy-washy "well what do you think" argument which is precisely *why* your ranting about ARM is hilarious! We're talking about hopes & feelings because direct comparison is made extremely difficult because it's only available in a completely proprietary product.

Which, again, is my point!

Glorious wrote:
These chips could be, and in practice basically *are* "Apple" instruction set processors. Apple products are infamously proprietary.
 
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:44 am

chuckula wrote:
End User wrote:
Redocbew wrote:

You would rather Geekbench be known as a benchmark which is only slightly terrible?

Forget about Geekbench. ARM has been knocking on Intel's door for a while now. Once the mobile constraints are lifted ARM is going to be a monster.


Meanwhile, on planet Earth: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... core&num=1

Honestly, the Cavium arm setup did better than I expected. It came out in the top half of most of the benchmarks. While it didn't "win" against the high-end x86 chips, it held its own quite respectably.

That said, I don't think any arm platform is ever going to solidly beat Intel/AMD. They have already extracted every ounce of performance the silicon can give, and are simply squeezing harder for a little bit more juice every cycle. Instead of leap-frogging, I predict will simply see a convergence where arm comes up to the same level. Then it will simply be juggling performance-per-watt instead of raw performance.
 
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:58 pm

Glorious wrote:
It's not ARM at all, it's just Apple.

Yup

Glorious wrote:
And it's not Apple knocking on Intel's door, no. It is simply Apple closing *THEIR* door to Intel.

Ok

Glorious wrote:
I'm just rejecting your inane fanboyism, especially the part of it were you are so delusional that you plainly pretend that you didn't make the grandiose statements you JUST DID.

LOL

Glorious wrote:
I'm glad you have something to believe in.

Thanks! You're the best.

Glorious wrote:
Which, again, is my point!

You have one?

Glorious wrote:
Apple products are infamously proprietary.

Duh.
 
Glorious
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:04 pm

Why do you even post such garbage?
 
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:05 pm

Buub wrote:
I predict will simply see a convergence where arm comes up to the same level. Then it will simply be juggling performance-per-watt instead of raw performance.

If Apple can bring its 64-bit ARM based SoC designs level with Intel I think they would be very happy.
 
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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!

Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:05 pm

Glorious wrote:
Why do you even post such garbage?

LOL
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