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Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:21 pm
by End User
the wrote:End User wrote:chuckula wrote:People tend to forget that event though Apple has done a piss-poor job of updating the Mac lineup, even the Macs that are running pretty outdated Intel x86 parts
Both the MacBook Pro and iMac lineups feature 7th gen Intel CPUs. Apple always lags a bit behind when it comes adding new CPUs into their products. The iMac Pro has a current gen Xeon CPU lineup I believe. The exception is the Mac mini and possibly the MacBook Air.
The Mac Pro and its Ivy Bridge processor released in
2013 says
'hi'. By my math, that is
5 years Apple hasn't touched that system. Even then, the 2013 Mac Pro was a lateral upgrade from the 2010 model as socket count went
down, total core count was the same, memory capacity went down, and GPUs were no longer upgradable. It was only remarkably faster if your software could leverage AVX vs. the 2010 model. On the GPU side of things, the upgradable 2010 Mac Pro wins hands down once a newer card is installed.
Some people have been waiting
8 long years for a worthy replacement to call a Mac Pro.
Holy crap! We all know this! Apple released the iMac Pro as a peace offering while we wait for the new Mac Pro! I'm going to post like this from now on! ARM RULES!
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:32 pm
by just brew it!
End User wrote:chuckula wrote:Or it could be the equivalent of dropping the headphone jack from the iPhone.
Wireless audio on phones is amazing. Such a sense of freedom.
Spoken like a true zealot. Silly me, I didn't realize that taking a feature away increases users' freedom!
End User wrote:chuckula wrote:Losing the ability to easily run regular Windows natively on Mac hardware means that Apple failed.
10 years ago maybe. Times have changed.
That being said by the time 2020 rolls around I'll probably be able to run Windows 10 for ARM x64 in a VM on my ARM based Mac.
How many Mac users actually care about being able to run Windows natively? Seems to defeat much of the purpose of getting a Mac in the first place.
***
There's really no inherent reason ARM needs to have inferior performance to x86-64. That just has tended to be true historically because ARM's focus has been on power consumption, not raw compute horsepower. Put enough really smart people to work on the problem and I'm sure you could come up with an implementation of ARM that rivals the performance of Intel's best. Whether Apple can actually pull that off remains to be seen, but there's no
technical reason it can't happen.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:35 pm
by just brew it!
whm1974 wrote:I'm taking a wait and see approach myself with high performing ARM CPUs.
...and yet, you were all gung ho to buy a RISC-V system sight unseen (until you saw what the hardware costs). Seems like a bit of a double standard?
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:37 pm
by Heiwashin
Captain Ned wrote:End User wrote:Wireless audio on phones is amazing. Such a sense of freedom.
Those who would give up essential fidelity to gain temporary freedom deserve neither fidelity nor freedom.
Don't mention that you can have an audio port and still have wireless audio as well. He won't believe it anyway.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:38 pm
by Glorious
Heiwashin wrote:Don't mention that you can have an audio port and still have wireless audio as well. He won't believe it anyway.
HERESY
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:45 pm
by just brew it!
Out, damned port! Out, I say!
--EU
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:53 pm
by whm1974
just brew it! wrote:whm1974 wrote:I'm taking a wait and see approach myself with high performing ARM CPUs.
...and yet, you were all gung ho to buy a RISC-V system sight unseen (until you saw what the hardware costs). Seems like a bit of a double standard?
No I actually wasn't. In its current form, RISC-V is mostly useless for me.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:54 pm
by DancinJack
the wrote:The Mac Pro and its Ivy Bridge processor released in 2013 says 'hi'. By my math, that is 5 years Apple hasn't touched that system. Even then, the 2013 Mac Pro was a lateral upgrade from the 2010 model as socket count went down, total core count was the same, memory capacity went down, and GPUs were no longer upgradable. It was only remarkably faster if your software could leverage AVX vs. the 2010 model. On the GPU side of things, the upgradable 2010 Mac Pro wins hands down once a newer card is installed.
Some people have been waiting 8 long years for a worthy replacement to call a Mac Pro.
Not that I disagree with anything you've said, people longing for a Mac Pro with a worthy upgrade should just buy an iMac Pro if they can't wait. At least it's pretty up to date now.
edit: it seems I didn't see the new page of posts. I don't care i'm not deleting this post. deal with it chumps.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:01 pm
by just brew it!
whm1974 wrote:just brew it! wrote:whm1974 wrote:I'm taking a wait and see approach myself with high performing ARM CPUs.
...and yet, you were all gung ho to buy a RISC-V system sight unseen (until you saw what the hardware costs). Seems like a bit of a double standard?
No I actually wasn't. In its current form, RISC-V is mostly useless for me.
whm1974 (in another thread) wrote:The HiFive Unleashed is finally out, featuring the Freedom U540 SoC by SiFive and has 8GB of ECC DDR4 memory. It is rather pricey however... They showed a demo running Linux playing Quake and running a full GUI. I want one, but I wouldn't know how to setup a single board computer like this.
Anyone also looking at this?
Sounds like you were ready to buy if it had been easier to make a usable PC out of it.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:11 pm
by whm1974
just brew it! wrote:whm1974 wrote:just brew it! wrote:...and yet, you were all gung ho to buy a RISC-V system sight unseen (until you saw what the hardware costs). Seems like a bit of a double standard?
No I actually wasn't. In its current form, RISC-V is mostly useless for me.
whm1974 (in another thread) wrote:The HiFive Unleashed is finally out, featuring the Freedom U540 SoC by SiFive and has 8GB of ECC DDR4 memory. It is rather pricey however... They showed a demo running Linux playing Quake and running a full GUI. I want one, but I wouldn't know how to setup a single board computer like this.
Anyone also looking at this?
Sounds like you were ready to buy if it had been easier to make a usable PC out of it.
Not for $1200 just for the board alone.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:37 pm
by End User
just brew it! wrote:How many Mac users actually care about being able to run Windows natively? Seems to defeat much of the purpose of getting a Mac in the first place.
Fusion and Parallels exist for some strange reason. I can't for the life of me think of why. Oh wait, there is a market for running Windows in a VM on the Mac!
When I ordered my work 2014 15" MacBook Pro back in the day, I bought it because I knew I needed the extra cores for running Windows under a VM on a daily basis. I now run a Windows VM once in a blue moon. The times are a changing.
I've been preparing for Apples switch over to ARM. Any requirement I have for Windows can now be met by my new personal T480 (it has an ethernet port!).
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:39 pm
by the
End User wrote:the wrote:End User wrote:Both the MacBook Pro and iMac lineups feature 7th gen Intel CPUs. Apple always lags a bit behind when it comes adding new CPUs into their products. The iMac Pro has a current gen Xeon CPU lineup I believe. The exception is the Mac mini and possibly the MacBook Air.
The Mac Pro and its Ivy Bridge processor released in
2013 says
'hi'. By my math, that is
5 years Apple hasn't touched that system. Even then, the 2013 Mac Pro was a lateral upgrade from the 2010 model as socket count went
down, total core count was the same, memory capacity went down, and GPUs were no longer upgradable. It was only remarkably faster if your software could leverage AVX vs. the 2010 model. On the GPU side of things, the upgradable 2010 Mac Pro wins hands down once a newer card is installed.
Some people have been waiting
8 long years for a worthy replacement to call a Mac Pro.
Holy crap! We all know this! Apple released the iMac Pro as a peace offering while we wait for the new Mac Pro! I'm going to post like this from now on!
LET THE SSK FLOW THROUGH YOU!
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:43 pm
by End User
just brew it! wrote:End User wrote:chuckula wrote:Or it could be the equivalent of dropping the headphone jack from the iPhone.
Wireless audio on phones is amazing. Such a sense of freedom.
Spoken like a true zealot. Silly me, I didn't realize that taking a feature away increases users' freedom!
I hate hate hate hate hate hate wires when I am moving around. My
Sony MDR-1000Xs sound fantastic. I don't need wires to get great audio.
I'm not going to lament the loss of a port I don't use.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:45 pm
by End User
the wrote:LET THE SSK FLOW THROUGH YOU!
Heavens no. Yuck. I've never come across such a misinformed so-and-so in my entire life.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:04 pm
by Redocbew
I think I'd rather have the SSK flowing through me.
Not to make it weird or anything.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:11 pm
by derFunkenstein
****, you guys, you're in danger of making text legible on my phone at font sizes that large.
just brew it! wrote:End User wrote:chuckula wrote:Or it could be the equivalent of dropping the headphone jack from the iPhone.
Wireless audio on phones is amazing. Such a sense of freedom.
Spoken like a true zealot. Silly me, I didn't realize that taking a feature away increases users' freedom!
Silly you, indeed - you know that phones can't have Bluetooth and headphone jacks at the same time! What are you thinking???
BTW, Being able to run Windows natively was about 163rd on my list of reasons to buy a Mac. Running it in a VM was higher up the list quite a bit.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:51 pm
by DancinJack
Running Windows natively on a Mac has MAYBE crossed my mind mmmmaaayyyybee twice in the ~25 years I have been using Macs.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:51 pm
by PatrThom
End User wrote:Fusion and Parallels exist for some strange reason. I can't for the life of me think of why. Oh wait, there is a market for running Windows in a VM on the Mac!
Well, not JUST Windows...
And Apple has a habit of changing processors every dozen years or so. 68k ran from 1984-1994, PPC from 1994-2006. It's been x86 from 2006 on, maybe Apple is just finally getting that 12yr itch again.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:00 pm
by chuckula
End User wrote:Fusion and Parallels exist for some strange reason. I can't for the life of me think of why. Oh wait, there is a market for running Windows in a VM on the Mac!
Yes, thanks to x86 having world-class virtualization support that's leagues ahead of any ARM device out there Windows on an x86 Mac runs great in a VM.
Which has jack to do with Windows running "like a dumpster fire" -- to use your own disingenuous propaganda -- when emulated by an ARM core that's trying to emulate old x86 Mac parts that are already on the market today.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:19 am
by ptsant
If/when this happens, I hope someone will do some real benchmarks (like compiling stuff, scientific computing) instead of the ridiculous Geekbench joke that makes an iPhone look faster than a 28-core Xeon.
Apple has some very competent engineers, but Intel/AMD are not idiots. The only way to win, in my opinion, is through very careful optimization of the software stack (OS, apps). I don't think the CPU is likely to be faster in raw power, but this is no longer very important to the Apple crowd.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:23 am
by whm1974
ptsant wrote:If/when this happens, I hope someone will do some real benchmarks (like compiling stuff, scientific computing) instead of the ridiculous Geekbench joke that makes an iPhone look faster than a 28-core Xeon.
Apple has some very competent engineers, but Intel/AMD are not idiots. The only way to win, in my opinion, is through very careful optimization of the software stack (OS, apps). I don't think the CPU is likely to be faster in raw power, but this is no longer very important to the Apple crowd.
I'm well aware that Apple doesn't want me as customer, but however I have long thought that users should buy as much hardware as their budget allows for. I also think that more then you need is better then not enough.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:16 am
by End User
chuckula wrote:End User wrote:Fusion and Parallels exist for some strange reason. I can't for the life of me think of why. Oh wait, there is a market for running Windows in a VM on the Mac!
Yes, thanks to x86 having world-class virtualization support that's leagues ahead of any ARM device out there Windows on an x86 Mac runs great in a VM.
I think you missed the part where I said that running Windows in VM on a Mac has dwindled to next to 0 for me. Running Windows 10 ARM x64 in a VM on an ARM based Mac was me poking people with a stick.
chuckula wrote:Which has jack to do with Windows running "like a dumpster fire"
I agree. The dumpster fire part was referring to Windows 10 on
ARM and that was in an entirely different post.
chuckula wrote:to use your own disingenuous propaganda
The reality is that Windows 10 on ARM is a sh*tshow. My criticism is valid. The facts speak for themselves. Any product that has performance problems with OS updates should be hanged, drawn and quartered.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:20 am
by Usacomp2k3
ptsant wrote:The only way to win, in my opinion, is through very careful optimization of the software stack (OS, apps). I don't think the CPU is likely to be faster in raw power, but this is no longer very important to the Apple crowd.
We reached "good enough" computer for most tasks, especially media consumption back in the Haswell era. As long as a A12 chip (or whatever they use) can match that, then I don't know that the user would even notice. The exception would the occasional demanding app like Final Cut. Moving to a common CPU with iOS would let them give users the option of using the full iOS App Store natively too.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:21 am
by End User
ptsant wrote:instead of the ridiculous Geekbench joke that makes an iPhone look faster than a 28-core Xeon.
Link to that result.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:24 am
by End User
ptsant wrote:I don't think the CPU is likely to be faster in raw power
What a silly thing to say.
ptsant wrote:but this is no longer very important to the Apple crowd.
Sure it is.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:26 am
by End User
Usacomp2k3 wrote:We reached "good enough" computer for most tasks, especially media consumption back in the Haswell era.
I was thinking Core 2 Duo.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:29 am
by Usacomp2k3
End User wrote:Usacomp2k3 wrote:We reached "good enough" computer for most tasks, especially media consumption back in the Haswell era.
I was thinking Core 2 Duo.
The i5-2500K was a big step over the dual core C2D's. Now the C2Q like the Q6600? Maybe.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:23 am
by End User
Usacomp2k3 wrote:End User wrote:Usacomp2k3 wrote:We reached "good enough" computer for most tasks, especially media consumption back in the Haswell era.
I was thinking Core 2 Duo.
The i5-2500K was a big step over the dual core C2D's. Now the C2Q like the Q6600? Maybe.
I had a Q6600 and I loved it but that is not what I am referring to.
My first MacBook Pro was a late 2006 with a Core 2 Duo. That was a really nice CPU and easily covered the day to day stuff in addition to providing smooth 1080p playback. I was very happy with that CPU.
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:54 pm
by cphite
Captain Ned wrote:End User wrote:Wireless audio on phones is amazing. Such a sense of freedom.
Those who would give up essential fidelity to gain temporary freedom deserve neither fidelity nor freedom.
+10
Re: Apple Dumps Intel: CONFIRMED!
Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:55 pm
by End User
cphite wrote:Captain Ned wrote:End User wrote:Wireless audio on phones is amazing. Such a sense of freedom.
Those who would give up essential fidelity to gain temporary freedom deserve neither fidelity nor freedom.
+10
-11