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chuckula
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RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:36 am

Want to buy the chip that has already melted Ice Lake into a sad pathetic puddle?

WANT TO ORDER A DOZEN!?!!

Sure, we all do!

Here's your Amazon pre-order link: https://www.amazon.com/AMD-Ryzen-Proces ... dpSrc=srch

But why stop at the chip when you can also get a revolutionary X470 motherboard: https://www.amazon.com/MSI-X470-GAMING- ... dpSrc=srch

Preorder them! It's your patriotic duty!
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:18 am

No self-respecting TR reader would buy before the benchmarks are out. Fanboys, on the other hand...
 
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:21 am

The 2700X looks great but I can't justify $329 for ~10% upgrade (vs my current 1700X).

I couldn't find a clear summary of the advantages of X470 vs X370? Anyone know?
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:25 am

It's kinda like a blind date where you have to stay with the person a couple years. Exciting!!
 
chuckula
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:27 am

Kretschmer wrote:
No self-respecting TR reader would buy before the benchmarks are out. Fanboys, on the other hand...


AMD doesn't care how rational the buyers are as long as the check doesn't bounce!
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:00 am

Kretschmer wrote:
No self-respecting TR reader would buy before the benchmarks are out. Fanboys, on the other hand...

It depends. If someone was rockin a 1500X or 1400 and wanted to upgrade to a 2700 or so I could see it.

Myself...I'm still waiting on the results of my RMA testing on my motherboard.
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:05 am

Should mean some meaningful price drops on first-gen Ryzens. Might be time for me to finally pull the trigger.
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:32 am

just brew it! wrote:
Should mean some meaningful price drops on first-gen Ryzens. Might be time for me to finally pull the trigger.

$220 for a 1700 in the deals post yesterday. That's 33% since launch, and like $40 off the current recommended price. Memory is still expensive though. Not saving anything on a whole system build over prices last March.
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:52 am

In all seriousness, until memory prices drop 50-70%, I'm not purchasing anything.
I can be a very patient person. I sat out last year, I can sit out another year (or two, if necessary).
The industry is still out of whack.
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:59 am

Not enough for me to spring from last years R5 1600 build, even if I had the money. But I have a friend about to pull the trigger and with the R5 1600 and R5 2600X only being $50 apart and 3.2/3.6GHz vs 3.6/4.25GHz, the old part isn't cheap enough to make it a no brainer to get the new one.
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:17 am

Ryzen+ is a bit of a damp squib.

The leaked benchmarks prove that there's minimal IPC gain, which was to be expected because this isn't a new architecture, it's a minor tweak for the new process;

Also, this new process that seems to have released very little additional clockspeed headroom at the high end. 5% clockspeed increase for an 11% TDP increase seems like a terrible result, if you ask me.

It also seems silly to not buy a high end CPU because the savings you make by picking up a lowly Ryzen 5 2600 instead of a Ryzen 7 2700X are eclipsed by the extra $450-650 you need to spend on the rest of the platform (depending on 16GB or 32GB of DDR4)
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:20 am

ptsant wrote:
The 2700X looks great but I can't justify $329 for ~10% upgrade (vs my current 1700X).

I couldn't find a clear summary of the advantages of X470 vs X370? Anyone know?


The difference? X470 - X370 = X100 (therefore 100 times better!!!) Hopefully not 100X more expensive... ;(

Except in this case, most likely: X=0 (no changes) then X100 is still nothing or undefined, Take your pick.
 
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:21 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
Ryzen+ is a bit of a damp squib.

The leaked benchmarks prove that there's minimal IPC gain, which was to be expected because this isn't a new architecture, it's a minor tweak for the new process;

Also, this new process that seems to have released very little additional clockspeed headroom at the high end. 5% clockspeed increase for an 11% TDP increase seems like a terrible result, if you ask me.


The inner cores themselves are pretty much identical to the first Ryzen, but apparently there have been some tweaks to the cache that make it more efficient (by a small margin). The process improvements have increased clock headroom at the expense of pulling more power... which shows that GloFo's process improvement process tends to track what Intel has done where early versions of 14nm didn't clock that high while later versions could hit the high clocks if you don't mind burning more power to do it.
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:33 am

ptsant wrote:
The 2700X looks great but I can't justify $329 for ~10% upgrade (vs my current 1700X).

I couldn't find a clear summary of the advantages of X470 vs X370? Anyone know?


I believe the 400 mobos have better support for XFR/Boost, not sure to what extent but I'm guessing:
    its support for boosting any number of cores (300s only offer boost 2 or boost all IIRC)
    the possibility that newer chips won't hit their stated boost speeds in the older chipset

This one I know: the PCIE lanes coming off of the chipset (as opposed to the chip itself) are PCIEx3.0 instead of x2.0 on the 300 series.
Main rig: Ryzen 1600@3.75GHz, R9 290@1050MHz, 16GB@2933MHz, 1080-1440-1080 Ultrasharps.
 
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:00 am

Asmedia being involved in the chipset design still makes me incredibly skittish for anything that isn't well into its product cycle and thoroughly vetted. I would also want native USB 3.1 Gen 2 at this point.
 
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:20 am

I'm not sure that you can credit clock headroom on the new process; They've simply bumped the voltage in the case of the 2700X and that's resulted in the extra power draw.
I have an R7 1800X running at 4.1GHz with an overvolt to 1.375V and that's without XFR, so it's directly comparable to the 3.7GHz base clock of the 2700X.

For the record, 1.375V increases power consumption by around 20% (P=I^2R) so my 1800X is running at an approximate TDP of 115W, using this hand-wavey metric, and it holds up against the new 2700X in multi-threaded workloads.

1800X all-cores (stock) 3600MHz + 100MHz XFR at 95W = 25.7W/GHz
2700X all-cores (stock) 3700MHz + 50MHz XFR at 105W = 28.0W/GHz
1800X all-cores (OC'd) 4100MHz + XFR disabled at 115W = 28.0W/GHz

Sure, the single-core peak clockspeed of 4.35GHz is better than the 4.1GHz that was possible on an 1800X or 1600X, but that's not really what Ryzen is about. If you want single-thread performance you're buying a CPU from the wrong vendor - the $86 Pentium G5600 is going to give you the same performance as a 4.35GHz Ryzen as long as you only want one or two threads at that speed.
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:31 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
Sure, the single-core peak clockspeed of 4.35GHz is better than the 4.1GHz that was possible on an 1800X or 1600X, but that's not really what Ryzen is about. If you want single-thread performance you're buying a CPU from the wrong vendor - the $86 Pentium G5600 is going to give you the same performance as a 4.35GHz Ryzen as long as you only want one or two threads at that speed.


But software runs the gamut so being able to go higher for low threaded software and wide for highly threaded software is great.
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:09 pm

sircharles32 wrote:
In all seriousness, until memory prices drop 50-70%, I'm not purchasing anything.
I can be a very patient person. I sat out last year, I can sit out another year (or two, if necessary).
The industry is still out of whack.


50-70% drop in memory prices within the next 2 years? Sorry, but I think you're dreaming. Maybe 10-25%. Maybe. Gone are the days where the PC/server market dictated the vast majority of memory demand. And manufacturers, now basically a consortium of 3 companies, are probably more wary about flooding the market with supply to make a price decrease that large likely. At least within the next 2 years.
 
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:52 pm

I'd love to, but for an 8C/16T system I'd really like to have 32GB of 3200MHz DDR4... which unfortunately would cost as much as the CPU and motherboard combined lol
 
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:53 pm

jihadjoe wrote:
I'd love to, but for an 8C/16T system I'd really like to have 32GB of 3200MHz DDR4... which unfortunately would cost as much as the CPU and motherboard combined lol


This is why Intel provides such a valuable public service. With their chips you suddenly don't think about the cost of RAM being so high anymore.
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:28 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
Ryzen+ is a bit of a damp squib.

The leaked benchmarks prove that there's minimal IPC gain, which was to be expected because this isn't a new architecture, it's a minor tweak for the new process;

Also, this new process that seems to have released very little additional clockspeed headroom at the high end. 5% clockspeed increase for an 11% TDP increase seems like a terrible result, if you ask me.

It also seems silly to not buy a high end CPU because the savings you make by picking up a lowly Ryzen 5 2600 instead of a Ryzen 7 2700X are eclipsed by the extra $450-650 you need to spend on the rest of the platform (depending on 16GB or 32GB of DDR4)


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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:50 pm

chuckula wrote:
Kretschmer wrote:
No self-respecting TR reader would buy before the benchmarks are out. Fanboys, on the other hand...


AMD doesn't care how rational the buyers are as long as the check doesn't bounce!

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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:37 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
I'm not sure that you can credit clock headroom on the new process; They've simply bumped the voltage in the case of the 2700X and that's resulted in the extra power draw.
I have an R7 1800X running at 4.1GHz with an overvolt to 1.375V and that's without XFR, so it's directly comparable to the 3.7GHz base clock of the 2700X.

For the record, 1.375V increases power consumption by around 20% (P=I^2R) so my 1800X is running at an approximate TDP of 115W, using this hand-wavey metric, and it holds up against the new 2700X in multi-threaded workloads.

1800X all-cores (stock) 3600MHz + 100MHz XFR at 95W = 25.7W/GHz
2700X all-cores (stock) 3700MHz + 50MHz XFR at 105W = 28.0W/GHz
1800X all-cores (OC'd) 4100MHz + XFR disabled at 115W = 28.0W/GHz

Sure, the single-core peak clockspeed of 4.35GHz is better than the 4.1GHz that was possible on an 1800X or 1600X, but that's not really what Ryzen is about. If you want single-thread performance you're buying a CPU from the wrong vendor - the $86 Pentium G5600 is going to give you the same performance as a 4.35GHz Ryzen as long as you only want one or two threads at that speed.

...huh?

You can't get any of the first-gen Ryzens to hit 4.3+ GHz consistently regardless of voltage, so no, they didn't "just bump up the voltage". Let the reviews bear it out, but I think you're being a little dismissive here.
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:21 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
I'm not sure that you can credit clock headroom on the new process; They've simply bumped the voltage in the case of the 2700X and that's resulted in the extra power draw.
I have an R7 1800X running at 4.1GHz with an overvolt to 1.375V and that's without XFR, so it's directly comparable to the 3.7GHz base clock of the 2700X.


Wait for the tests. There are also some very important side benefits:
1. Much better RAM compatibility and speed without so much hand tuning.
2. Much lower price. This could mean that your 1800X was the a top part (say top 5% bin) and now they obtain the same perf on 30 or 50% of the chips, for example. Even though the top of the range changed little, it may now be achievable on many more chips.

Clearly, it's not worth upgrading the 1800X to the 2700X, but the choice between the 1800X at $500 and the 2700X at $329 is a no brainer. This is progress.
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:17 am

Waco wrote:
You can't get any of the first-gen Ryzens to hit 4.3+ GHz consistently regardless of voltage, so no, they didn't "just bump up the voltage". Let the reviews bear it out, but I think you're being a little dismissive here.


I hear what you're saying but don't forget that these second-gen Ryzen's aren't hitting 4.3+ GHz either. That's a single-core, temporary peak boost speed, which we won't know more about until after the reviews. The highest all-core base clock that is comparable to an overclocked first-gen Ryzen is the 3.7GHz of the 2700X.

Due to the limitations of boost and XFR control on the first-gen when overclocking, the overclocked maximums of earlier Ryzens looked underwhelming, and for a single-thread, they actually were, but you can't compare XFR peak speeds (or whatever replaces XFR in Ryzen+) with an all-core overclock. It's not apples to apples, and people are too quick to associate performance with the "hey look at me" headline peak boost clocks. First Gen Ryzens don't spend a lot of time at those speeds, especially not when the most receptive customer demographic was those concerned with heavily-threaded workloads.

Yes, I think the new 2600X and 2700X are going to be more appealing than the older chips they supercede, but unless you were running them at stock speeds beforehand, or unless there are significant changes to the XFR replacement and boost curve, It's really not going to be a significant difference.

I'm looking forward to the reviews on the 19th and I'd actually like to be proven wrong; I'm just healthily-sceptical and AMD are the historical masters of over-promising and under-delivering.

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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:43 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
Waco wrote:
You can't get any of the first-gen Ryzens to hit 4.3+ GHz consistently regardless of voltage, so no, they didn't "just bump up the voltage". Let the reviews bear it out, but I think you're being a little dismissive here.


I hear what you're saying but don't forget that these second-gen Ryzen's aren't hitting 4.3+ GHz either. That's a single-core, temporary peak boost speed, which we won't know more about until after the reviews. The highest all-core base clock that is comparable to an overclocked first-gen Ryzen is the 3.7GHz of the 2700X.

If they're shipping the top-end sku with a 4.3 GHz boost clock you can bet there's a little more there if you're tolerant of the high power usage if you want to go all-core with 4.3 GHz. You can't compare base clocks since those are strictly governed by power usage - the peak boost clocks are good predictors of what the silicon can do on an average die.
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:17 pm

chuckula wrote:
Preorder them! It's your patriotic duty!


Been there, done that... 5 years in the U.S. Navy was enough "patriotic duty" for me.
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:27 pm

Pville_Piper wrote:
chuckula wrote:
Preorder them! It's your patriotic duty!


Been there, done that... 5 years in the U.S. Navy was enough "patriotic duty" for me.


At least AMD* doesn't charge the usual defense-contractor markup on its products!

* Even Intel isn't that bad.
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:00 pm

Pville_Piper wrote:
Been there, done that... 5 years in the U.S. Navy was enough "patriotic duty" for me.

Thanks you for your service good sir.
 
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Re: RyZen+ Preorder: DO IT NOW!

Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:09 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
I hear what you're saying but don't forget that these second-gen Ryzen's aren't hitting 4.3+ GHz either. That's a single-core, temporary peak boost speed, which we won't know more about until after the reviews. The highest all-core base clock that is comparable to an overclocked first-gen Ryzen is the 3.7GHz of the 2700X.

The voltage/frequency curve is going to be pretty similar regardless of how many cores you're hanging off it at once. All-core being tougher is more about thermals and how it puts wear on all cores at once instead of one or two at a time. I wouldn't want to run an 1800X all-core at its peak XFR voltages, but when people do the results are very close to what XFR is giving, and that's no coincidence.

Non-+ Zen's V/F curve goes steeper than 100mV per 100MHz in this region, and they're already pushing nearly 1.5V to get that 4.1 on current parts. 4.3 just isn't happening on current V/F curves, so we know Zen+ is bringing something or other new to the table. I'm with you in questioning the utility of this. The bigger changes to boosts than bases imply that the V/F curve is a bit less cliff-like at the top end, but maybe not much changed at more sane values.

That said, I think people (not necessarily in this thread) are being awfully quick to dismiss Zen+ as a tiny improvement on the basis of clock numbers alone. The purported cache / latency improvements may be mere purports for the moment, but boosts of that sort are nothing to sneeze at.

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