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How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 10:34 am

https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/05/ ... innov.aspx


"I believe that when Apple introduces its next iPhone in about four months, it will deliver equal or better CPU performance to Intel's best notebook processors designed to consume 15 watts but at a fraction of the power consumption. "

"Intel, in my view, will be shown to be a clear No. 2 in high-performance, low-power processor design, behind Apple"

"Apple's upcoming A12 processor is believed to have gone into mass production recently using TSMC's latest 7nm technology."

"At some point, Apple's processor designs could be so far ahead of Intel's in all relevant metrics that Apple would actually be doing its Mac products a disservice by not switching over to its own chips."
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 10:35 am

"www.fool.com"

Well you started off the post in an intelligent manner.
Next time quit while you are ahead.
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 10:39 am

What everybody forgets is that Apple needs to catch Intel in single-threaded CPU performance before it can surpass it. *Can* Apple get better performance than Intel so that the Mac lineup could adopt ARM? Maybe, but I'm still skeptical, no matter what Fool says. Will it? I'll believe it the day it ships and not a moment before.
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 10:44 am

derFunkenstein wrote:
What everybody forgets is that Apple needs to catch Intel in single-threaded CPU performance before it can surpass it. *Can* Apple get better performance than Intel so that the Mac lineup could adopt ARM? Maybe, but I'm still skeptical, no matter what Fool says. Will it? I'll believe it the day it ships and not a moment before.


What people seem to forget is that Apple has no problems dumping Intel while NOT beating Intel's products in performance (outside of some contrived bakeoff benchmarks like in the bad-old-days before they went to x86).

It's not about performance with Apple. It's about control. And controlling the sheep is easier when you can't just install a non-Apple OS on the only real computers they sell.
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 10:55 am

This is just some random guy saying he believes Apple stuff is faster.

Which is all anyone can ever say, because it's basically just geekbench numbers and absolutely nothing else.

And in this, since the chip hasn't even been released, we don't even have those. We have nothing.

Just look at this nonsense, every quote is just a litany of "in my view", "I believe", "believed to have", "could be".

derfunkenstein wrote:
*Can* Apple get better performance than Intel so that the Mac lineup could adopt ARM?


They could it ~now with the lower-end laptops. If Apple isn't planning on doing that in the next few years, I think they're crazy.

But yes, like you said, until they actually announce it, what are we even talking about?

Seriously, does anyone believe that Apple internally ISN'T developing MacOS on ARM? Really, the only question is when, because except for power-users, gamers, and IT professionals, an i3 literally is "more than good enough" and a lot of what they doesn't remotely need to be or already isn't native code. Heck, the i5-i7 or whatever adds nothing to the vast majority of the market, and if they are clocked lower overall they might even be worse (Want to speed up end-turns on that Total War/Civilization game? The cheaper i3 is actually faster than the "gamer-preferred i5")

chuckula wrote:
What people seem to forget is that Apple has no problems dumping Intel while NOT beating Intel's products in performance (outside of some contrived bakeoff benchmarks like in the bad-old-days before they went to x86).


Absolutely, because it really doesn't matter. There are laptops still sold with mechanical drives, just getting an SSD means a lightyears better experience for the typical customer.

If Apple is actually worse at compute, but better at literally everything else, does it matter? The average customer won't notice and will likely be delighted to have the "slower" Apple laptop that doesn't have some whacked out configuration with a crappy screen, crippled bandwidth, mechanical HD etc... That stuff is still all over the place.

And if you are using your macbook to facebook or spreadsheet, I mean, come on. It doesn't matter in the first place.
 
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 11:06 am

Sorry chuck and Glorious, I just disagree. But I'll explain:

I don't think they'd take on the extra development cost unless they were going to do it for the entire line. They can't replace the entire Mac line without at least taking a stab at the iMac Pro and Mac Pro. I guess the only way they move on without those "pro" machines is if you believe they've completely given up on recapturing the media creation market and they're just going balls-out making expensive, fancy-looking, consumer-oriented media consumption boxes.

That does seem to be where their focus is, so maybe that's what they're doing. I'm holding out hope that's not the case. They just invested pretty heavily in getting eGPU stuff working right on the platform so that it could potentially be a decent option for VR. They'd have to do a complete 180 on that a year later (last summer) or at most two years later (2019 Mac Pro).

The biggest driving force for consumer CPU performance today is web applications and Javascript. I don't think they're at that point yet with their SoCs but we'll see what the A12 does. I'm sure they could get it "close enough" but I don't think they'll target dual architectures forever.
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 11:28 am

Derfunkenstein wrote:
I don't think they'd take on the extra development cost unless they were going to do it for the entire line. They can't replace the entire Mac line without at least taking a stab at the iMac Pro and Mac Pro. I guess the only way they move on without those "pro" machines is if you believe they've completely given up on recapturing the media creation market and they're just going balls-out making expensive, fancy-looking, consumer-oriented media consumption boxes.


They are basically paying Intel a difference of 100-200 USD per Macbook/Macbook Air that they'd get to pocket themselves if they put like a goosed A11 or A12 into them.

They sell something like ~20 million Macs a year. The majority of those are laptops, and have been for well-over a decade. So we'll say half, ~10 million laptops.

Then let's assume that half of those laptops aren't the more expensive Macbook Pros, ~5 million laptops.

So, we're talking something between 500 million and 1 billion, per year.

That pays for a lot of development cost, especially when you consider that Apple is almost certainly continually developing MacOS on ARM internally already, you know, just because.

---

There's no reason why they can't have a bifurcation in the "Macintosh" market. Maybe they won't call it a macintosh, but we're talking about non-mobile Apple devices.

Why couldn't they have the "Pro" non-mobile devices be x86, with the regular non-mobile devices being their ARM?

They already have the mobile being ARM with the Macs being X86, right?

What's the problem?

Derfunkenstein wrote:
The biggest driving force for consumer CPU performance today is web applications and Javascript. I don't think they're at that point yet with their SoCs but we'll see what the A12 does.


But that's the thing-- Is Facebook really "slower" on an Core 2 versus an coffee-lake i7?

I mean, I actually still use a Core 2 Quad (Q9550, thanks again Captain Ned!) in my HTPC downstairs. It has an SSD, and I can't say it's like noticeably any different for that sort of thing than the i7-8770k gaming computer that's on a desk in the same room.


EDIT: Like you said, I'm really just "I'll believe it when I see it".

All I am saying is that I believe that Apple could start the process tomorrow and I don't see any obvious problems with the idea outside of them having more control of their product and even more money.

Their customers won't balk. Hardly any of them would notice, and there'd be a non-trivial portion of basically crazy people who would buy the darn thing just -BECAUSE- it was ARM.
 
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 1:51 pm

Glorious wrote:
there'd be a non-trivial portion of basically crazy people who would buy the darn thing just -BECAUSE- it was ARM.

That's me. The only Mac I'm interested in is an ARM one.
I see no reason to buy a real Mac when I can hackintosh a cheap PC.
The ARM Mac can be both price and performance competitive with Intel PCs. If wanting that makes me crazy I don't want any of your sanity.
 
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 1:59 pm

windwalker wrote:
I see no reason to buy a real Mac when I can hackintosh a cheap PC.
The ARM Mac can be both price and performance competitive with Intel PCs. If wanting that makes me crazy I don't want any of your sanity.


OK, let me explain it to you then.

You are saying the only difference between a "real" Mac with x86 and a "real" Mac with Apple ARM is that you won't be able to hackintosh for cheaper once Apple goes Apple ARM.

So, yes, that's crazy. You can buy a real Mac with x86 right now. Saying that you want Apple to force the issue and MAKE you go legitimate, I mean, uh, dude?

That is entirely about willpower and personal ethics, not instruction sets.
 
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 2:03 pm

Glorious wrote:
windwalker wrote:
I see no reason to buy a real Mac when I can hackintosh a cheap PC.
The ARM Mac can be both price and performance competitive with Intel PCs. If wanting that makes me crazy I don't want any of your sanity.


OK, let me explain it to you then.

You are saying the only difference between a "real" Mac with x86 and a "real" Mac with Apple ARM is that you won't be able to hackintosh for cheaper once Apple goes Apple ARM.

So, yes, that's crazy. You can buy a real Mac with x86 right now. Saying that you want Apple to force the issue and MAKE you go legitimate, I mean, uh, dude?

That is entirely about willpower and personal ethics, not instruction sets.


It's WindWalker. He looks at the fact that x86 processors are actually useful for tasks that don't include viewing Apple-Approved content and picking from curated Apple-Approved ideas as the greatest thing that's wrong with the world today.
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 2:06 pm

Chuckula wrote:
It's WindWalker. He looks at the fact that x86 processors are actually useful for tasks that don't include viewing Apple-Approved content and picking from curated Apple-Approved ideas as the greatest thing that's wrong with the world today.


I don't know anything about any of that, I'm just going by the reasoning as stated in his singular comment.

Which, yes, is so seriously strange that I'm actually mildly perplexed by it.

I can't rightly...

He wants Apple ARM so he won't be able to hackintosh anymore, something he had no problem doing previously because it saved him money?

I really... don't.. huh.

wow.
 
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 2:07 pm

windwalker wrote:
Glorious wrote:
there'd be a non-trivial portion of basically crazy people who would buy the darn thing just -BECAUSE- it was ARM.

That's me. The only Mac I'm interested in is an ARM one.
I see no reason to buy a real Mac when I can hackintosh a cheap PC.
The ARM Mac can be both price and performance competitive with Intel PCs. If wanting that makes me crazy I don't want any of your sanity.

If such a thing comes to be, it will absolutely, positively, in no uncertain terms NOT be cheaper than an x86 alternative. Thinking otherwise is not insane, it's just willfully ignorant.
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 2:16 pm

DerFunk wrote:
If such a thing comes to be, it will absolutely, positively, in no uncertain terms NOT be cheaper than an x86 alternative. Thinking otherwise is not insane, it's just willfully ignorant.


I toyed with that idea, that maybe he seriously thought that Apple would just beneficently cut prices or something.

But then, I was like, I explicitly said that Apple would pocket the difference and he didn't challenge that notion.

Also, I mean, the entire reason that he is hackintoshing was because it was "cheaper" in the first place, right? So since he isn't paying the "Apple Tax" and understands that Apple has a huge markup that they aren't willing to share NOW, -BEFORE- they had a bunch of ready customers excited (for insane reasons) to own the first ARM Mac... so surely, SURELY, he can't be even crazier, right?

Like you say, willful ignorance. Heck, it's entirely possible that they won't just pocket the difference, but actually up the price overall to boot.
 
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 2:17 pm

I have taken the time to read the article.

1- The article's sources is the author.

1.1- Author does not have any advanced technology degrees or any particular insight as to back-up his claims.

1.2- I will take author's statements to be market speculation for the express purpose to have influence in the equities market.

1.3- Therefore, I have no reason to believe anything the author says.

2- Why are we giving any weight to this article?

uni-mitation
 
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 2:38 pm

Apple: Give me your money.
People: Ok.
Investors: THEY SHALL RULE THE WORLD!

Business people are weird.
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 2:43 pm

Redocbew wrote:
Apple: Give me your money.
People: Ok.
Investors: THEY SHALL RULE THE WORLD!

Business people are weird.

I mean, if people give them enough money, this isn't necessarily wrong though.
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 2:52 pm

Redocbew wrote:
Business people are weird.

How so? Seems to me that they just understand that there are many aspects to having a successful business plan, and that Apple seems to have hit on a winning formula.

The Apple zealots who unquestioningly shell out big $ for the latest shiny thing are weirder, IMO.
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 2:56 pm

I'm giving Apple the benefit of the doubt. Intel hasn't significantly increased single core performance in years. I've been nothing but impressed with just how fast the latest round of iDevices feel. Even full desktop sites render just as quickly on an iPhone as they do on a Kaby Lake laptop. It's nuts!
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 3:11 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Redocbew wrote:
Business people are weird.

How so? Seems to me that they just understand that there are many aspects to having a successful business plan, and that Apple seems to have hit on a winning formula.

The Apple zealots who unquestioningly shell out big $ for the latest shiny thing are weirder, IMO.


They might be one in the same in this case, but I've just always found it strange how stories like this happen. I understand it when someone heaps praise on to a product that they have in their hands. Even if their analysis ends up being completely wrong at least they're working from a real thing which cannot be the subject of endless speculation in any realistic fashion. The weird part is how that gets extrapolated into all these crazy theories. They're not engineers so maybe they don't know what's crazy and what's not, but wouldn't they want to do some research so they at least have some idea? Maybe this guy did that and just happened to pick the wrong sources, but it seems to happen a lot.
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 3:14 pm

jackbomb wrote:
I'm giving Apple the benefit of the doubt. Intel hasn't significantly increased single core performance in years. I've been nothing but impressed with just how fast the latest round of iDevices feel. Even full desktop sites render just as quickly on an iPhone as they do on a Kaby Lake laptop. It's nuts!

This kinda confuses me. It's like somewhere in Apple world there is this contingent that thinks Apple can just CRUSH Intel on single-threaded performance whenever they want. Y'all crazy.

Doesn't mean they can't make a good CPU+GPU and pull more stuff in-house and increase their profits. They're doing it as we speak. Just don't confuse that with the idea that Apple is doing it because they're so much more skilled than Intel or AMD.
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 3:41 pm

DancinJack wrote:
jackbomb wrote:
I'm giving Apple the benefit of the doubt. Intel hasn't significantly increased single core performance in years. I've been nothing but impressed with just how fast the latest round of iDevices feel. Even full desktop sites render just as quickly on an iPhone as they do on a Kaby Lake laptop. It's nuts!

This kinda confuses me. It's like somewhere in Apple world there is this contingent that thinks Apple can just CRUSH Intel on single-threaded performance whenever they want. Y'all crazy.

Doesn't mean they can't make a good CPU+GPU and pull more stuff in-house and increase their profits. They're doing it as we speak. Just don't confuse that with the idea that Apple is doing it because they're so much more skilled than Intel or AMD.

My MBP scores 285 on Jetstream while running Safari. Phone Arena says the A11-equipped iPhones score around 220-225. Does that mean the Core i7-7700HQ is only 25% faster than the iPhone despite the huge gulf in TDP? No. I don't believe that for a second, but I do believe that Apple is capable of squeezing the most out of the hardware (and potentially optimizing for specific tests, which is a huge waste of time for everyone).

Chrome on the same Mac scores 195 - nearly 1/3 less than Safari on the same hardware. My Ryzen 5 2400G scores around the same. And now the iPhone "wins" vs. a PC because the software has been optimized for the test.
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 3:48 pm

Glorious wrote:
You are saying the only difference between a "real" Mac with x86 and a "real" Mac with Apple ARM is that you won't be able to hackintosh for cheaper once Apple goes Apple ARM.

I haven't said that at all.
Glorious wrote:
So, yes, that's crazy. You can buy a real Mac with x86 right now. Saying that you want Apple to force the issue and MAKE you go legitimate, I mean, uh, dude?

Congratulations, you have vanquished the straw man.
Glorious wrote:
That is entirely about willpower and personal ethics, not instruction sets.

Maybe to you. To me it's about price and quality, just like any other product. In the case of computing products performance is the largest part of quality.
 
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 4:00 pm

chuckula wrote:
It's WindWalker. He looks at the fact that x86 processors are actually useful for tasks that don't include viewing Apple-Approved content and picking from curated Apple-Approved ideas as the greatest thing that's wrong with the world today.

x86 processors are not particularly useful for any task, they are general purpose.
x86 is the JavaScript of instruction sets: surpassed by most competitors and rendered wholly inadequate yet still widely used because of the cost of breaking the inertia.
 
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 4:00 pm

windwalker wrote:
Glorious wrote:
That is entirely about willpower and personal ethics, not instruction sets.

Maybe to you. To me it's about price and quality, just like any other product. In the case of computing products performance is the largest part of quality.

As one who has been exposed to and consciously rejected the RDF since the late 1970s and the Apple ][ and IIe, it seems that the average Apple-bot of today assumes quality arises from price.
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 4:04 pm

Glorious wrote:
I don't know anything about any of that, I'm just going by the reasoning as stated in his singular comment.

Which, yes, is so seriously strange that I'm actually mildly perplexed by it.

I can't rightly...

He wants Apple ARM so he won't be able to hackintosh anymore, something he had no problem doing previously because it saved him money?

I really... don't.. huh.

wow.

Dude, you have a serious problem with reality perception. Where did you get this silly notion that I won't be able to hackintosh any more?
 
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 4:08 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
If such a thing comes to be, it will absolutely, positively, in no uncertain terms NOT be cheaper than an x86 alternative. Thinking otherwise is not insane, it's just willfully ignorant.

That makes zero sense.
There is no reason, no business case and no market niche for an ARM Mac that is not significantly cheaper than an equivalent x86 model.
 
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 4:14 pm

Glorious wrote:
I toyed with that idea, that maybe he seriously thought that Apple would just beneficently cut prices or something.

But then, I was like, I explicitly said that Apple would pocket the difference and he didn't challenge that notion.

Also, I mean, the entire reason that he is hackintoshing was because it was "cheaper" in the first place, right? So since he isn't paying the "Apple Tax" and understands that Apple has a huge markup that they aren't willing to share NOW, -BEFORE- they had a bunch of ready customers excited (for insane reasons) to own the first ARM Mac... so surely, SURELY, he can't be even crazier, right?

Like you say, willful ignorance. Heck, it's entirely possible that they won't just pocket the difference, but actually up the price overall to boot.

Apple doesn't have a huge markup on Macs. Just because PC makers have the profit margins of potato farmers doesn't make Apple cartoonish evil greedy bloodsuckers.
 
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 4:21 pm

uni-mitation wrote:
I have taken the time to read the article.

1- The article's sources is the author.

1.1- Author does not have any advanced technology degrees or any particular insight as to back-up his claims.

1.2- I will take author's statements to be market speculation for the express purpose to have influence in the equities market.

1.3- Therefore, I have no reason to believe anything the author says.

2- Why are we giving any weight to this article?

uni-mitation

Securities markets are interested in the future.
The future is uncertain so educated speculation based on rumours is one of the best tools they have to work with.
They deal with lots of money so they have plenty of motivation to dig up rumours as close to reality as possible.
 
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 4:27 pm

windwalker wrote:
That makes zero sense.
There is no reason, no business case and no market niche for an ARM Mac that is not significantly cheaper than an equivalent x86 model.

Dollars to doughnuts, walk up to any Apple store and say "here's the new MBP and it's OUR OWN NEW CHIP, NO MORE INTEL, but it costs more". The RDF faithful will shove their credit cards through any slot you have.

Since when did Apple care about business cases and pricing now that they've got the sheep hooked?
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Re: How Apple Dethroned Intel As the World's Most Innovative Chipmaker

Tue May 29, 2018 4:39 pm

Redocbew wrote:
Apple: Give me your money.
People: Ok.
Investors: THEY SHALL RULE THE WORLD!

Business people are weird.

If you're so much smarter than them the markets are yours for the taking. Go forth and make your billions!

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