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jackbomb
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Ryzen 9 3850x!

Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:33 pm

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-r ... 38310.html

16 cores, 32 threads, proper AVX2, and 4.3/5.1GHz base/boost clocks in a svelte AM4 package? PLEASE BE TRUE!
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:36 pm

It just a copy+paste of an early "leak" that was proven to be fake. I would wait until AMD actually announces desktop version of Zen2.
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:33 am

Holy bandwidth bottleneck, Batman!
 
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:27 am

NTMBK wrote:
Holy bandwidth bottleneck, Batman!

Yeah, no kidding! A 16C/32T part with only dual-channel RAM would be a really unbalanced design.
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:37 am

At last we will expose ourselves to the Jedi.
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:06 am

It would also have power delivery issues on most older AM4 boards too. If AMD does indeed release a 12/16 core Zen2 Ryzen SKUs it might on a completely new socket that is laying the foundation for Zen3 desktop platform (DDR5/PCIe 4.0).
Last edited by Krogoth on Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:54 am

Yeah, that's way too good to be true. It would completely gut Threadripper, so I doubt that this is even remotely real.

Being optimistic and in the world of reality would say about a 10% improvement over the current crop of Ryzen.
 
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:09 am

The article uses the world "purportedly" which means that Wasson sent them the information. Therefore it must be true.
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:06 am

DragonDaddyBear wrote:
Yeah, that's way too good to be true. It would completely gut Threadripper, so I doubt that this is even remotely real.

Even if real, it would not "completely gut" Threadripper, due to memory bandwidth constraints. It would be a niche product, for workloads which can utilize 32 threads effectively without being hobbled by the dual-channel memory interface.
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:23 am

Also, PCIe. Since AMD moved that controller off the CPU die with Zen 2, Ryzen will have less than Threadripper in any config.
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:53 am

Good points. It would just make the 16-core Threadripper less appealing. I forgot the PCI-E lanes. Bandwidth maybe, but wouldn't latency be much better on a unified dual-channel, single die configuration? I suppose it would be application specific.
 
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:09 pm

16 cores on AM4? I doubt it.

12? Oh yes. I'd be shocked if they don't on the next release.
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:04 pm

DragonDaddyBear wrote:
Yeah, that's way too good to be true. It would completely gut Threadripper


Not arguing for whether this 16C will ever come to fruition... but...

If AMD were going to make more money from selling a 16C Ryzen 9 (i.e. same retail price but with simpler packaging) than selling an equivalent TR3 - then why would they not do so?

The X399 platform can standalone for any number of reasons - memory bandwidth, memory capacity, PCIe lanes, 32C parts (64C parts?)...

The 1900X overlapped with the 1800X. Sure, 1900Xs didn't sell well (even if I bought one for platform proving before further investment) - but that didn't stop AMD releasing both.
 
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:35 pm

Amiga500+ wrote:
If AMD were going to make more money from selling a 16C Ryzen 9 (i.e. same retail price but with simpler packaging) than selling an equivalent TR3 - then why would they not do so?

Poor benchmark results (due to lack of memory bandwidth) would be bad PR.
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:52 pm

Waco wrote:
16 cores on AM4? I doubt it.


I thought we were past the point of doubt now? Zen 2 has been officially confirmed as coming to EPYC servers before the consumer AM4 options, and the 7nm chiplet design has let AMD double core counts across the board. Zen 2 server hardware (Rome) was sampled to partners at the beginning of November, 8 weeks ago and this is not only old news, but confirmed and re-leaked across the web.

Leaked slides (that could still be elaorate photoshop fakes, but far more likely to have come from the partners making AM4 boards) detail the AM4 Zen 2 chips as eight tiny dual-core chiplets on TSMC's 7nm process and then packaged alongside a dual-channel memory controller and IO on 14nm FinFET.

I assume we'll get the official announcement on Monday or Tuesday.
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:00 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
Waco wrote:
16 cores on AM4? I doubt it.


Leaked slides (that could still be elaorate photoshop fakes, but far more likely to have come from the partners making AM4 boards) detail the AM4 Zen 2 chips as eight tiny dual-core chiplets on TSMC's 7nm process and then packaged alongside a dual-channel memory controller and IO on 14nm FinFET.


Uhh.... you really think AMD is going to put in *nine* pieces of silicon in an AM4 socket? It's one thing to say: OK they'll throw in two 8-core chiplets just like the server parts and then throw in a cut-down 14nm I/O chip. That's at least plausible. But *nine* pieces of silicon in what is supposed to be a cheap AM4 socket? Don't let the fact that the parts are smaller than the full server fool you, there's nothing simple, economical, or even plausible about that setup at all. How do you think the power delivery system on an old AM4 motherboard is going to like having to control power to 9 different pieces of silicon when it was designed for one piece of silicon? This is more than a chiplet or two, this is literally the same complexity as the ultimate Epyc-2 server parts, just with cut-down silicon.

For another thing, while there are economic issues with *huge* dies there are also negative economies of scale when putting in chiplets that only give you 2 cores each while still requiring you to put in the full power regulation and delivery hardware. Not to mention that even though there's a Northbridge-with-a-stupid-new-marketing-name handling some of the I/O, each chiplet most certainly still needs to have it's own I/O to talk to the Northbridge, and you get negative economies of scale having to make 8 copies of that configuration vs. only 2 copies (at most) in a 2-chiplet setup. On top of that, there's the added complexity and power consumption that needs to get dumped into the I/O hub to do that. The I/O hub in a huge Epyc 2 is about the same size as a 2-die Threadripper. You can justify that on a huge expensive enterprise chip. You can't justify that on something that's supposed to be undercutting last year's 177 mm^2 single-die Intel parts in price... and make no mistake, AMD isn't about to stop competing on price.
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:43 am

agree with Chrispy_ for the most part
16 core and 32 threads on the top end ryzen for am4
2 zen2 chiplets with a cut down io or 1 chiplet with 1 navi (much later) + io. so at last, an 8 core apu.
power delivery is not a problem unless you want all 16 cores running at 5ghz (or whatever zen2 can do, im not that optimistic)

zen2 was supposed to compete with intel 10nm. but intel is late.

ces19 will only bring mobil ryzen 3000, which is zen+ based

it has been proven that threadripper 2990wx's performance woes are windows scheduler bugs, not memory constraints. 2990wx is fine (in linux) with 4 mem channels, ryzen 3800 / 3850 will be fine with 2 channels.
 
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:36 am

just brew it! wrote:
Amiga500+ wrote:
If AMD were going to make more money from selling a 16C Ryzen 9 (i.e. same retail price but with simpler packaging) than selling an equivalent TR3 - then why would they not do so?

Poor benchmark results (due to lack of memory bandwidth) would be bad PR.


On the likes of Cinebench (which from 2990WX are clearly not bandwidth limited) - it'd be spectacularly good.

Can't see too much downside when the CPU will either (i) blow equivalent platform competitors out of the water when using memory insensitive applications or (ii) being approximately equal to platform competitors when using memory sensitive applications.
 
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:43 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
Leaked slides (that could still be elaorate photoshop fakes, but far more likely to have come from the partners making AM4 boards) detail the AM4 Zen 2 chips as eight tiny dual-core chiplets on TSMC's 7nm process and then packaged alongside a dual-channel memory controller and IO on 14nm FinFET.

Perhaps they'll do 16 off the bat, I just figured they'd keep it as something in their back pocket for when Intel responds.

That said, why would AMD make a dual-core chiplet? I think you're looking at shots of Rome with bad information aside it. Rome is 8 chiplets and an IO hub - 64 cores.
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:13 pm

MY WALLET IS READY!

ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS POINT ME TO THE AMAZON-PRIME LINK THIS MONTH AND I'LL BUY IT!
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:56 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
Waco wrote:
16 cores on AM4? I doubt it.


Leaked slides (that could still be elaorate photoshop fakes, but far more likely to have come from the partners making AM4 boards) detail the AM4 Zen 2 chips as eight tiny dual-core chiplets on TSMC's 7nm process and then packaged alongside a dual-channel memory controller and IO on 14nm FinFET.

I assume we'll get the official announcement on Monday or Tuesday.


Eight 2c chiplets sounds much less efficient than four 4c chiplets. Why create 8*7/2=28 inter-chiplet paths when you can do with 4*3/2=6? And I don't think the yields are so bad that we need to have microscopic 2c chiplets. The 8c chiplets are themselves proof of that. Sounds weird to me, but I am not an engineer...
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:06 am

Amiga500+ wrote:
DragonDaddyBear wrote:
Yeah, that's way too good to be true. It would completely gut Threadripper


Not arguing for whether this 16C will ever come to fruition... but...

If AMD were going to make more money from selling a 16C Ryzen 9 (i.e. same retail price but with simpler packaging) than selling an equivalent TR3 - then why would they not do so?

The X399 platform can standalone for any number of reasons - memory bandwidth, memory capacity, PCIe lanes, 32C parts (64C parts?)...

The 1900X overlapped with the 1800X. Sure, 1900Xs didn't sell well (even if I bought one for platform proving before further investment) - but that didn't stop AMD releasing both.


It's actually the opposite situation. If you get the 1900X you are investing in the platform (RAM, PCIe) and can eventually upgrade the chip. If you get a 16c AM4 (which, we are assuming, does not perform as well as the TR4 equivalent) then you are stuck in a dead end. You won't be getting a faster CPU or more RAM or PCIe in the future. The only market I would see for a 16c AM4 would be for running superpi or something similar that uses little RAM, lots of threads and no IO.

On the other hand, IF the 16c AM4 by some miracle of engineering (more/better cache?) performs close to its TR4 equivalent with only 2 channels of RAM THEN it makes some sense to sell it as a meaningful upgrade over the 12c or 8c. In any case, with the 2950X AMD has demonstrated that multi-core does not penalize single-core turbo so what's not to like?

This obviously depends on the improvements that took place in Zen2, especially in the mem controller side.
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:03 am

Amiga500+ wrote:
Can't see too much downside when the CPU will either (i) blow equivalent platform competitors out of the water when using memory insensitive applications or (ii) being approximately equal to platform competitors when using memory sensitive applications.

It'll be expensive, power-hungry, and difficult to cool. Effectively a "stunt" CPU like the FX-9590. Might as well just go with a Threadripper at that point.
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:06 am

ptsant wrote:
And I don't think the yields are so bad that we need to have microscopic 2c chiplets.

...and they would've had to know many months in advance that the yields would suck, since it takes a really long time to create and validate a design for a complex chip like a CPU.
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:10 pm

I honestly don't think AMD is going to be launching 12/16 core Zen2-based Ryzen SKUs. it is much more sensible to release a single chiplet (4c/6c/8c) tied to a I/O + APU chip on the AM4 platform. They would finally address their key strategic weakness in the OEM world by making iGPUs ubiquitous for laptops and desktop platforms. AMD is going to be waiting for their next socket/package change (DDR5/PCIe 4.0) to go beyond 8-cores on their mainstream platforms. I suspect that Zen3 will be taped out by then.

Threadripper already exists to satisfy users who have a need for more than 8-cores and will most likely want more I/O connectivity then what current Ryzen platform provides.
Last edited by Krogoth on Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:58 pm

ptsant wrote:
If you get a 16c AM4 (which, we are assuming, does not perform as well as the TR4 equivalent) then you are stuck in a dead end. You won't be getting a faster CPU or more RAM or PCIe in the future.


Erm, just like any other mainstream platform... not sure where you are going with that. A 16C on AM4 would be a product for the moment, not a product for upgrading in 3 years time.

ptsant wrote:
The only market I would see for a 16c AM4 would be for running superpi or something similar that uses little RAM, lots of threads and no IO.


Or (using the 2990WX performance as a guide), things like Cinebench or Blender. Basically any software where the 2990WX runs 32 cores very efficiently on 4 channels of memory would see a 16C AM4 run very well on 2 channels of memory.

ptsant wrote:
On the other hand, IF the 16c AM4 by some miracle of engineering (more/better cache?) performs close to its TR4 equivalent with only 2 channels of RAM


As I indicated above, the 2990WX is feeding 32 cores over 4 channels - 8 cores/channel, a 16C AM4 would be feeding 16C over 2 channels - 8 cores/channel.

Yes - performance would be sensitive to applications (like 2990WX) - but in some areas - it would be performance the Intel mainstream simply couldn't touch - or even get within arms reach of.
 
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:09 pm

just brew it! wrote:
It'll be expensive, power-hungry, and difficult to cool. Effectively a "stunt" CPU like the FX-9590. Might as well just go with a Threadripper at that point.


If it is comprised of an I/O die and 2x 8C chiplets - then its not markedly different from any 12C (except the dies can not be harvested from duds) in terms of build cost for AMD. Sale cost - well that is defined by the market isn't it?


I agree on power being an issue when running 16 cores + SMT flat out. So thats a question of how well 7nm power savings would stack up. A 2950 (with SMT disabled) uses ~165W @ ~4.0 GHz. With SMT enabled, it'll be bouncing off the socket power limit (default 220W) at more or less 4.0 GHz. So if 7nm were to (miracle working!) actually half that, you'd be looking at 110W power-restricted operation at 4.0GHz. Is AM4 socket spec'ed for around 125W? Could see 16C32T listed as operating at around 3.8-4.0 GHz base if the AM4 power limit was 125W and 7nm delivered 40-45% power savings (iso-clock).


Cooling I wouldn't worry so much about - the socket power envelope will be the same as for Zen1 or Zen1+ CPUs - and the cooling solutions available can obviously deal with that. If you cannot get more power into the socket - then you've no more thermal power to dissipate. Unless they change power specs on the motherboards - which I would not be a fan of - but I'm sure others would care less about.
 
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Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:09 pm

16c AM4
64c TR3

Are totally coming in 2019, so buckle up.

2ch ram on 16 is fine for a lot more than people realize. The 2990WX is mostly hobbled by window design problems (as proven on linux and by manually outsmarting windows) and that is in a worse situation: 4ch ram for twice the cores, with extra latency added to half of them.
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:12 pm

Anyway, look - I'm not saying there will or won't be a 16C AM4, so don't want to get drawn too far into an argument "for" it.

I'm just saying that there is little reason AMD cannot do a 16C if they can do a 12C - both in terms of design cost and build cost - and they would add value to the market for certain fields (such as rendering) which they could then capitalise on via higher prices. I also don't believe they will worry about undercutting Threadripper if an AM4 16C was cheaper to assemble and priced at the same amount - end of the day that is more money in their bank account.


There may be reasons why they don't do a 16C - but those same reasons will also apply to a 12C. In which case the top end mainstream would continue to be 8C.
 
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Re: Ryzen 9 3850x!

Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:44 pm

Amiga500+ wrote:
ptsant wrote:
If you get a 16c AM4 (which, we are assuming, does not perform as well as the TR4 equivalent) then you are stuck in a dead end. You won't be getting a faster CPU or more RAM or PCIe in the future.


Erm, just like any other mainstream platform... not sure where you are going with that. A 16C on AM4 would be a product for the moment, not a product for upgrading in 3 years time.


I'm comparing with the TR4 platform. For example, a 12C on TR4 would probably overlap (MB+CPU+RAM) with a 16C on AM4 and can be upgraded 1-2 years later.

Also, I'm not saying that there won't be a 16C AM4. At some point there will be a mainstream 16C but I hope that it comes with significant memory channel/cache improvements.
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