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Krogoth
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Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:47 pm

AMD unleashes the big guns with the Ryzen 9 3950X which completely creams the competition at a bargain price of $749! Coming to your next back to school sales!

Meanwhile, Intel throws up the white flag and considers to go on a glue rich diet. They only have one comment: "gg no re".
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:26 pm

getting past another click bait title.


Considering I was expecting it at around 800 the pricing seems fine. Not much else to say about that.
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:38 pm

True Story: This is the article of the day on Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclone_Raja

Second true story: I'm already drafting the "OMG TR hates AMD!!" posts for when TR commits the ultimate crime of leaving all 16 cores turned on during gaming tests and we see the issues that occur when you aren't running Cinebench.
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:46 pm

Ha, that's a nice way to poke a little fun at Intel by AMD.

"Oh, you know that awesome desktop CPU that is going to hurt your top-end sales? We have a better one too."

I knew it was coming due to the architecture but I didn't expect it would launch in a bit of a vacuum like this. Excellent news. :)
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:23 pm

chuckula wrote:
True Story: This is the article of the day on Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclone_Raja

Second true story: I'm already drafting the "OMG TR hates AMD!!" posts for when TR commits the ultimate crime of leaving all 16 cores turned on during gaming tests and we see the issues that occur when you aren't running Cinebench.

Third true story: I thought you started this thread based on the headline. I see Krogoth wants to be cool too now. :lol:
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:24 pm

Not gonna lie, I thought it was a chuckula thread too.
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:02 am

Same.
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:04 am

i wish mods would kill this thread already.
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:07 pm

That's cool to see AMD kicking butt and releasing some powerful new CPUs, great for enthusiasts and keeps the market moving. I'm quite keen to see how these will go for gaming and streaming, 12 and 16 cores is quite a bit to work with. It probably makes single PC high quality streaming quite doable. Looking forward to the benches.

Was also expecting the thread author to be Chuckula =)
 
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:02 pm

I love AMD as a company. I paid $400 for the K6-233 at its release as the fastest CPU for all of thirty days before the Pentium II was released in an early panic. Owned a 486DX4-120MHz before that, went through the Durons, Athlons, Athlon XPs, 64, 64 x 2.

But I'd much rather see an eight-core Ryzen that can hit 5.5GHz than a sixteen core that hits 4.7GHz. It's a balance of cores and clockspeed for me, I need some of both. I'm sure sixteen cores is awesome for Adobe/Handbrake/CAD/Cinebench/multithreaded crunching apps, but as a gamer, how much more performance is sixteen cores going to get me over eight for what I do?
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:29 pm

You're likely never going to see 5.5 GHz chips going forward. There's no real drive to produce them, and efficiency tanks at high clocks/volts. I'd bet more on spending of transistors to make newer chips at 4 GHz play like an older chip at 5/6/7/8 GHz. This is already true if you look back a few years and compare clock-for-clock speeds.
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:56 am

It's becoming pretty clear that silicon has hit a wall at around the 5 GHz mark (unless you want to resort to extreme cooling solutions). We've been stuck here for years, through several process generations; maximum clock speeds basically haven't budged. I doubt we will see widespread use of higher clock speeds unless/until we move away from silicon.
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:30 pm

Looks like Intel doesn't need 5GHz to compete with AMD.
Image
Also looks like Ryzen 2 is pretty on-par with Coffee Lake in IPC.
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:12 pm

That Sunny Cove number is either very wrong or misreporting the clocks. Intel would be bragging like crazy if they'd managed 40% better than Skylake.

Zen2 is looking great though!
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:00 pm

They're claiming 18-40% IPC improvement depending on the benchmark (per the article).
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:11 pm

Didn't Zen or Zen+ report some crazy numbers in the CPU-Z benchmark too?
 
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:15 pm

Goty wrote:
Didn't Zen or Zen+ report some crazy numbers in the CPU-Z benchmark too?

IIRC there was something weird about caching that artificially inflated the scores?
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:47 pm

https://www.techpowerup.com/256700/inte ... ryzen-3000
btarunr wrote:
Intel's immediate response to 3rd generation Ryzen will be a series of price-cuts to products in its client-segment DIY retail channel.
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:48 pm

Waco wrote:
Goty wrote:
Didn't Zen or Zen+ report some crazy numbers in the CPU-Z benchmark too?

IIRC there was something weird about caching that artificially inflated the scores?


Our very own chuckula got worked up about it here, but it turned out to be a case of Ryzen's scheduler being smart enough to determine how little work a simple benchmark actually called for, and fed CPU-Z a correct answer in a computationally miniscule amount of time. CPU-Z's devs went back and rewrote the benchmark to measure something different and sufficiently harder to solve.
Last edited by Concupiscence on Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:00 pm

It's always amazing to me how hard it is to write microbenchmarks that mean anything.
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:08 pm

Waco wrote:
It's always amazing to me how hard it is to write microbenchmarks that mean anything.

Even some of the not-so-micro ones are of questionable utility.
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:14 am

Thanks for the explaination.
Last edited by johnrude on Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:38 am

First thing that came to mind when I saw that title was, "What's the date today?" Then immediately after, "Nah, it's probably just Chuckula."
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:36 pm

Waco wrote:
You're likely never going to see 5.5 GHz chips going forward. There's no real drive to produce them, and efficiency tanks at high clocks/volts. I'd bet more on spending of transistors to make newer chips at 4 GHz play like an older chip at 5/6/7/8 GHz. This is already true if you look back a few years and compare clock-for-clock speeds.


True but I still have high hopes on this. But I'm still ok with 4 - 4.8 ghz with 8 core if the price is right :)
 
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:20 pm

gonzch wrote:
Waco wrote:
You're likely never going to see 5.5 GHz chips going forward. There's no real drive to produce them, and efficiency tanks at high clocks/volts. I'd bet more on spending of transistors to make newer chips at 4 GHz play like an older chip at 5/6/7/8 GHz. This is already true if you look back a few years and compare clock-for-clock speeds.

True but I still have high hopes on this. But I'm still ok with 4 - 4.8 ghz with 8 core if the price is right :)

If you can do the same work with a more sophisticated chip at 4 GHz that a simpler chip would require 6 GHz to do, why should it matter?

As I noted earlier in this thread, I think extending clock speeds significantly beyond their current limits is going to require use of materials which have previously not been widely used in commodity chips.
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:50 am

https://www.techpowerup.com/256842/inte ... s-progress
Actual internal Intel memo wrote:
By most accounts, the competitive threat to Intel from AMD is the greatest it has been in years....AMD is getting bigger....Key AMD competitive threats are from high-end products:
AMD offers high performance CPUs, posing direct competition to Intel in both our core client and datacenter CPU businesses.
AMD has recently been gaining some traction in winning public cloud offerings. And competition from AMD is shaping up to be especially tough in high performance computing. HPC performance is usually driven by the number of cores and the number of memory channels (or memory bandwidth). Intel is challenged on both fronts.
AMD's upcoming next-generation Zen-core products, codenamed Rome for servers and Matisse for desktop, will intensify our desktop and especially server competition. The latter is likely to be the most intense in about a decade.
By leveraging TSMC's 7nm manufacturing - AMD no longer manufactures its own chips - AMD can drive higher core counts and higher performance than it could previously with Global Foundries as its in-house manufacturer. These 7nm products will amplify the near-term competitive challenge from AMD.
Challenging period ahead
What is Intel's positioning regarding these multiple competitive threats? Today and into the near future, says Intel's AMD competitive expert Steve Collins, "we will be facing tough competitive challenges."
Intel 9th Gen Core processors are likely to lead AMD's Ryzen-based products on lightly threaded productivity benchmarks as well as many gaming benchmarks. For multi-threaded workloads, such as heavy content creation workloads, AMD's Matisse is expected to lead.
In the longstanding industry debate over benchmarks - whose to use? - Cinebench is often used by AMD, since it favors high core/thread count and represents one of the best-case benchmarks for AMD.
In general, Intel's mainstream Xeon server products will be challenged on throughput-oriented benchmarks that scale well with core count. Architecturally, AMD's Rome product for servers is improved over 1st generation EPYC, but Xeon is still expected to have cache and memory latency advantages. For this reason, Intel still expects Xeon to be competitive on applications that require fast response times and are sensitive to memory latencies like database, analytics, web serving, and so on.

Intel's secret sauce
Intel's secret sauce is not a single ingredient. Rather, it is the six pillars of innovation - process, architecture, memory, interconnect, security, and software - that the company laid out at last year's Intel Architecture Day. Intel is uniquely positioned, given our assets, to to deliver leadership products leveraging these six pillars.

Our competitive experts believe that Intel's ambition to achieve long-term leadership will hinge on successful execution to these six pillars.

Software, one of the six pillars, has long been an unheralded Intel advantage. A key piece of our company's competitive strategy is to highlight our software smarts vis-à-vis AMD. Intel-designed software or software code contributions - which can touch everything from the Linux kernel to Adobe Lightroom - can capitalize on unique features in Intel architecture.

These often under-the-hood software assets differentiate Intel from AMD and can deliver a better experience to end users and customers. One metric of Intel's software strength: Our company's 15,000 software developers. That number is more than all of AMD's employees.

A final but essential point that Intel's competitive team underscores is that Intel versus AMD is not just a chip-to-chip matchup. Intel's unique strengths lie in the unequalled breadth of our overall portfolio across business, mobile, desktop, gaming-as well as platform advantages including Optane memory, WiFi, Thunderbolt, Turbo Boost 2.0, and other technologies.

A high-profile example of Intel's focus on platforms is Project Athena, a multi-year innovation program that aims to deliver a new class of advanced laptops. Another key Intel advantage is all the built-in acceleration for emerging workloads such as networking and AI. Features like Intel Deep Learning Boost, along with all the software and framework optimizations, create clear differentiation versus AMD.

Steve Collins Q&A: Why AMD is resurgent, and what we must do next
To provide additional color and context on the Intel-AMD competitive environment, we talked recently with Steven Collins. He is the Director of the Data-centric Competitive Assessment group on our company's Performance, Power and Competitive Analysis team.

Q. Why does it matter that AMD is going to TSMC for manufacturing?

It means that they have the flexibility to use whatever process technology they want, whatever process is best for their products. TSMC offers an advantage in terms of process node advancements. [See the Circuit News competitive profile on TSMC.] They're using their 7 nm process, and with that they get a per-core frequency bump and lower power, which means they can scale to more cores per processor.
On top of that, AMD made improvements in their 2nd generation Zen core and their disaggregated chiplet-based architecture scales cores efficiently. Therefore, on workloads that are heavily threaded, including heavy content creation and most server workloads, they'll get great performance results. And on price, we expect their pricing to be significantly below ours. So they'll likely get good performance-per-dollar. That's what they're going to compete on, and that's the risk to Intel.

Q. So that raises the obvious point: How do we respond when people say "Wow, AMD is charging a lot less for their products than Intel."

It's not well understood that Intel actually offers the market a larger selection of product pricing. While the press often likes to focus on Intel's top price points being higher than AMD's top price, few people recognize that Intel also offers lower entry pricing than AMD. So Intel offers more price point choices to our customers.
Additionally, I would say users don't buy a chip. They buy a system. They buy a whole solution that includes software enabling, vendor enabling, validation, technical support, manageability, out-of-box experience, supplier sustained consistency, and more. So, yes, while an OEM or ODM might buy a chip, the end user doesn't generally buy only a chip. We believe that our product pricing vis-à-vis AMD reflects the great deal of added value that specifically comes from buying Intel with our decades of unmatched investments in validation, software, and security.
Especially for enterprise customers, acquisition cost is just one part of the total cost of ownership. Customers using an alternative solution may need additional validation, optimization, debugging, and certifications - all normal cost adders when introducing a new solution in an IT environment. Additionally, some software is licensed per core and therefore more cores from the AMD solution results in higher licensing costs.
Performance challenges absolutely exist, but we will continue to position our value and our advantages. Some innovations we bring to the table that deliver customer value may not always result in higher performance benchmark scores, or the value of the innovation goes beyond standard benchmark results. We price to what our customers value.
Intel is a premium brand. At times, and on some workloads, we might dip below on performance, like the second half of this year. At other times, and on other workloads, we are 3x or more the performance. Our pricing will continue to reflect the value we deliver to our customers.

Q. What accounts for AMD's competitive resurgence? Did TSMC turn AMD into our biggest competitor, or is it AMD's focus on higher-end desktop and server parts?

From 2006 to 2017, AMD had positive net income only three of the twelve years. I'm not sure we can point to a single thing that turned AMD around. But I do think it's was absolutely rooted in the strategic changes AMD initiated in 2015/2016 that narrowed and simplified their focus. AMD shifted to focus on higher margin or premium segments, specifically high-end client, datacenter, graphics for gaming. And they continued their investment in their semi-custom and console business.
Rather than going after lower-margin, low-end products, they refocused on how to win higher-margin business. AMD added much-needed clarity since they were previously distracted by markets that didn't align with their strengths. They simplified their investments and roadmap and started leveraging best-in-class foundries. Most importantly, they executed to that strategy. Having a clear focus and direction helps enable great execution.
I also believe AMD's comeback was a result of being very product-centric. A top priority for AMD was building great products - high-performance compute and graphics solutions - from definition to development to delivery.

Q. How do you think we should be looking overall at the Intel-AMD competitive picture right now?

Well, first, it's clearly a challenging time. We have significant competitive challenges to navigate. That said, I think we have a great strategy and a great roadmap.
While it has been a number of years since we've faced a similar competitive environment (in the early 2000s with 1 GHz barrier, integrated memory controller, 64-bit, and so on) Intel has risen to every situation and almost always emerged better and stronger.
Our focus needs to be on getting our execution in shape as soon as possible. We're in a competitive time partly because of our execution issues, whether that's related to our process technology node, or to our products that intercept those nodes. So I think that execution to our roadmap and strategy will help tremendously.
Beyond product execution, we need to lean on our software expertise and strength and amplify our software differentiation - now more than ever.
Finally, in competitive times, overall marketing, ensuring our customers understand our differentiated value proposition, along with customer obsession, are critical. Now more than ever, we need to lean into our sales and marketing teams to help carry us through these product challenges.

Q. And your last point touches on our cultural transformation, too.

Yes. AMD's next gen 7nm-based products amplify our competitive challenges. While it has been a number of years since we've faced similar competition, Intel has risen to every situation and almost always emerged better and stronger. Are we acting as One Intel or are we stepping on each other's toes? Are we facing our challenges with truth and transparency?
Are we listening to our customers and designing the right things in the first place? I think it all goes back to these things. As we succeed at these cultural transformations, I believe our overall competitiveness will improve too.
I'd encourage all employees to browse the Intel resources at the bottom of this story, especially competition.intel.com. This is where, for example, we will publish data on AMD's upcoming Zen 2-based systems.
Finally, I would say that even in the face of strong competitive challenges, when all 107,000 of us behave as One Intel, as CEO Bob Swan has said, we are unstoppable.
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:46 am

Interesting. I highly doubt there's been such a "reassuring" email to employees at Intel since the first Athlon64 chips started arriving.

EDIT: I was hopeful that competition.intel.com was an external site. Clearly I'm too optimistic. :)
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:09 am

Interesting read. The talks of better software and security seem to not agree with the recent performance hit of the backdoor mitigation of things like Spectre.
 
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:14 am

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
Interesting read. The talks of better software and security seem to not agree with the recent performance hit of the backdoor mitigation of things like Spectre.

Well... in that case they didn't have much choice; they were trying to use software to mitigate a hardware issue that didn't have a good mitigation strategy other than redesigning the hardware.

Yes, I would say they've stumbled a bit in the area of security. but it was - at its core - a hardware issue, not a software one.

In terms of software support, I would tend to agree that they are way ahead of AMD.
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Re: Intel cancels their entire desktop CPU line-up

Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:24 am

That's true. The tricky part is that if they have this whiz-bang security and validation, then maybe they would have caught this earlier? Or maybe they did and said it was worth the risk?

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