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chuckula
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You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:59 pm

A movie that should be required viewing for anybody is The Longest Day about the D-day landings in Normandy.

The first act of the film places a great deal of emphasis on the dicey weather conditions and while the Germans knew that there was going to be an invasion somewhere, someday, it was not going to be at Normandy and not on June 6.

There's a classic scene from a German bunker when the Allied invasion fleet first shows up. Even if you don't speak German or have subtitles turned on, you get the point of the scene. In slightly more detail, the guy in the bunker is calling his superior and telling him about the 5,000 ships in the invasion fleet (actually somewhat less than the over 6,000 ships including landing craft and naval warships). His arrogant superior says that the Allies can't possibly have 5,000 ships. Well, history told us who was right.

Well, that's pretty much what Intel showed today with multi-die Icelake Xeon parts where each die is packing 4 stacks of HBM2 when certain "experts who are under magic NDAs" around here who -- unlike me -- didn't accurately call what AMD was doing with Epyc 2, also had the arrogance to claim that Intel couldn't produce an x86 part with HBM2 when its first-generation 64+ core Xeons with HBM run more supercomputers than will ever rely on an Epyc 2 for compute power. Well they did. Here's an initial photo:

Image

Look at the one on the left, while the two on the right are specialized parts (at least the lower right-hand one is an FGPA with HBM and high-performance I/O transceivers).
Note the notching in the chip on the left that clearly indicates a socketed part, while the more specialized chips are not keyed for sockets.

Here's a more detailed view of that part:
Image

Ever wonder how Intel was able to put Ice Lake with all that compute power into a rather measly 8-channel platform? Well, having just as much HBM2 (or more) as any high-end enterprise GPU sure helps a bit. But let's all go back to calling Ryzen2 a miracle since an 8-core chiplet gets all of 1/2 the write bandwidth of a quad-core Kaby Lake from 2017.

Now maybe you don't think that could possibly be Ice Lake. Maybe it's the world's first EMIB connected GPU with unheard of HBM2 capabilities that's also clearly self-hosting since it doesn't have to act like an add-in card since it can use a standard high-end socket. OK, maybe it is. Maybe they are the world's first socketed, self-hosting FPGA's in a dual-die configuration! Ok sure...looks like Intel still won in either event.

Incidentally, all of this was shown off at Intel's package day. And believe me, they have working technology that's light years ahead of putting some traces on a PCB like in the first commercially successful MCM chips that they debuted over 10 years ago.
Last edited by chuckula on Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DPete27
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:05 pm

Shall we count the ways these photos are phony?
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chuckula
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:09 pm

DPete27 wrote:
Shall we count the ways these photos are phony?


If you think the photo is a fake, please take it up with Dave Schor of Wikichip since this is from his official Twitter feed: https://twitter.com/david_schor/status/ ... 6576617472

Oh yeah, and debunk this as completely fake too: https://fuse.wikichip.org/news/2503/int ... rconnects/

But let's run around and worship some Youtube d-bag who tells us lies about AMD that sound good -- you know, like those 5GHz out of the box Ryzen2 parts -- instead of listening to people that actually know something.
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Waco
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:32 pm

You seem to read a lot more into things than people are actually saying. You should look into that.
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chuckula
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:44 pm

Waco wrote:
You seem to read a lot more into things than people are actually saying. You should look into that.


A simple: I knew you were correct and shouldn't have been dishonest in a public forum would have been a little classier.

Personal advice: If you really do have access to all these "magic NDAs" then stop spreading active misinformation. If you don't have access to the NDAs, then preface everything you say by "this is just my personal opinion." Which was clearly wrong as we have just seen in public... and frankly I was expecting to have to wait longer to be proven right.
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Waco
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:16 am

I didn't spread anything. I said I hadn't seen a public roadmap with what you claimed. Is there something else you're referring to?
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just brew it!
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:06 am

@chuckles - NDAs don't grant you unlimited access to insider info. They just allow you to see very specific info on a carefully limited "as needed" basis. I assume you already knew this, and are just trolling?
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:27 am

When does it ship and what’s the price?

ship In 2019 and AMD is dead.
Ship in 2021 and meh.
 
Waco
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:33 am

just brew it! wrote:
@chuckles - NDAs don't grant you unlimited access to insider info. They just allow you to see very specific info on a carefully limited "as needed" basis. I assume you already knew this, and are just trolling?

He's clearly just trolling. He knows anyone with an NDA can't confirm or deny anything till it's public so he's taking pot shots.
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:57 am

Notice how chucky's first post after the Ryzen 3000 launch is three days late and just a bunch of trolling and personal attacks, rambling on about products that don't even address a market AMD competes in.

Who hurt you?
 
Waco
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:26 pm

Goty wrote:
Notice how chucky's first post after the Ryzen 3000 launch is three days late and just a bunch of trolling and personal attacks, rambling on about products that don't even address a market AMD competes in.

I do enjoy the backpedaling in the edit of his post as well.
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chuckula
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:14 pm

Waco wrote:
Goty wrote:
Notice how chucky's first post after the Ryzen 3000 launch is three days late and just a bunch of trolling and personal attacks, rambling on about products that don't even address a market AMD competes in.

I do enjoy the backpedaling in the edit of his post as well.


What backpedaling exactly? The part where I added the information at the end about Intel's packaging announcement? How exactly is that a "backpedal'??

You want more "backpedaling"?? How about while AMD is running around acting like it's a miracle that you can solder chips to a PCB 70's style, Intel has already released a completely open interconnect standard that has third-party silicon running with its FGPAs over EMIB. That's not them talking about "heterogeneous" computing while pushing CPU-only northbridge systems, that's an open interconnect standard.

As for the rest of it, for all your supposed brilliance that guy who built a cluster of Xeon Phis fast and efficiently is frankly more impressive than all the bloated "exaflop" projects out there: He doesn't have a blank check of taxpayer money to blow and he has to get results because his customers don't have to pay him if he doesn't deliver... unlike "research labs" that just need to make a press release and wait for next year's budget.

Here's working hardware running under mineral oil:
Image
Image

But please, call the guy who was right an idiot again while you congratulate yourself for helping the budget deficit... funny how the guy who can build a giant working system like that with commercial customers is such a moron but you'll drink the AdoredTV koolaid all day long.

So maybe next time when somebody like that building a 125 Petaflop system for real customers confirms information [yes, I said "confirms" he wasn't the original source by a long shot] about upcoming products, maybe you shouldn't insult him since even if your lab blows enough money to get an exaflop system he'll still have accomplished more in the real world.
Last edited by chuckula on Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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chuckula
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:20 pm

Goty wrote:
Notice how chucky's first post after the Ryzen 3000 launch is three days late and just a bunch of trolling and personal attacks, rambling on about products that don't even address a market AMD competes in.

Who hurt you?


Tell ya what, when Intel comes out with a "next generation" 8-core part that can only only use the bandwidth of one channel of commercial DDR memory to write data through a northbridge... something that my 2008-era Core 2 "chiplet" could do better since it wasn't constrained to one memory channel -- then you can claim that Intel is finally "behind" AMD. This also explains why AMD didn't even try to actually use their miracle "chiplets" to add graphics to an allegedly "consumer" series of parts.
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Goty
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:50 pm

chuckula wrote:
Goty wrote:
Notice how chucky's first post after the Ryzen 3000 launch is three days late and just a bunch of trolling and personal attacks, rambling on about products that don't even address a market AMD competes in.

Who hurt you?


Tell ya what, when Intel comes out with a "next generation" 8-core part that can only only use the bandwidth of one channel of commercial DDR memory to write data through a northbridge... something that my 2008-era Core 2 "chiplet" could do better since it wasn't constrained to one memory channel -- then you can claim that Intel is finally "behind" AMD. This also explains why AMD didn't even try to actually use their miracle "chiplets" to add graphics to an allegedly "consumer" series of parts.


You do know the half-width write path was a conscious design decision, right? And what does it say about Intel that AMD's eight core part that uses about a third less power, has up to a 600 MHz clockspeed deficit, and only has half the possible memory write bandwidth performs largely the same across a variety of workloads as Intel's top of the line mainstream desktop part? Kind of shows Intel in a bad light, doesn't it?

Oh, crap. I forgot about AVX-512, didn't I?! Nevermind, you're right. Intel is vastly superior in all ways and AMD should just close its doors right now!

Image

... ah. Whoops. Forgot that the 9900K doesn't support it either.
Last edited by Goty on Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Waco
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:12 pm

chuckula wrote:
What backpedaling exactly? The part where I added the information at the end about Intel's packaging announcement? How exactly is that a "backpedal'??

"Maybe it's a thing, maybe it's another thing, but hey look, at least it's a thing of some type!"

How else would someone read that? I never said the things you're attributing to me yet you're still sitting here attacking like I did.

chuckula wrote:
So maybe next time when somebody like that building a 125 Petaflop system for real customers confirms information [yes, I said "confirms" he wasn't the original source by a long shot] about upcoming products, maybe you shouldn't insult him since even if your lab blows enough money to get an exaflop system he'll still have accomplished more in the real world.

I think you're confusing labs here. I think it's pretty clear based on my post history that I find stunt systems to be a complete waste of money with the exception of getting new people interested in computer science / HPC. I do mission computing, thank you very much, and it'd be more productive for everyone if you stopped your little crusades against anyone critical of Intel. I was critical of the statements made by that guy because they were wrong. Clearly, unequivocally, wrong.

chuckula wrote:
Tell ya what, when Intel comes out with a "next generation" 8-core part that can only only use the bandwidth of one channel of commercial DDR memory to write data through a northbridge... something that my 2008-era Core 2 "chiplet" could do better since it wasn't constrained to one memory channel -- then you can claim that Intel is finally "behind" AMD. This also explains why AMD didn't even try to actually use their miracle "chiplets" to add graphics to an allegedly "consumer" series of parts.

I'm sorry, did AMD pee in your Wheaties? Even with all of those "problems", AMD's new chip is more efficient in terms of power, faster in terms of raw IPC, and costs less than Intel's equivalent. Weird flex.

Further, you're acting like the APUs ever launched simultaneously with a new Ryzen series. They haven't, they've always been down the road a few months.
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Goty
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:27 am

I bet headlines like this one really butter chuckula's bread: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/07/1 ... packaging/

(Note: the article in no way implies that Intel copied this strategy from AMD, and I agree that notion would be ridiculous.)
 
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:45 am

Wow, comparing a server CPU to D-Day, with AMD cast as the goddamn Nazis. This is a new low for you, you ridiculous troll. What role do you picture yourself as? Plucky Spitfire pilot? Winston Churchill, harrumphing away in the background? Or are you the man on the ground, storming the beaches of NormandySanta Clara with your bayonet of truth?

These chips look very interesting, but seriously, grow the **** up.
 
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:42 am

NTMBK wrote:
Wow, comparing a server CPU to D-Day, with AMD cast as the goddamn Nazis. This is a new low for you, you ridiculous troll. What role do you picture yourself as? Plucky Spitfire pilot? Winston Churchill, harrumphing away in the background? Or are you the man on the ground, storming the beaches of NormandySanta Clara with your bayonet of truth?

These chips look very interesting, but seriously, grow the **** up.


I think the D-Day analogy is a lot of fun, the more I think about it. Timing is everything. D-Day was impressive, and worked, because it happened in 1944. If Ice Lake is D-Day, then it's as if D-Day happened in 1946, AFTER the plans for D-Day had been leaked two years earlier, giving the Nazis time to counter.

Intel is not being led by Eisenhauer, Intel is being led by Gomer Pyle.
 
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:04 pm

chuckula wrote:
You want more "backpedaling"?? How about while AMD is running around acting like it's a miracle that you can solder chips to a PCB 70's style


Hey.

You know that restaurant around the corner?

Yeah, that one. The one with big banner emblazoned "best coffee in the world"

Why don't you take your picket sign and setup shop over there?

Let 'em know you're onto their little scam, OK?
 
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Re: You know those Ice Lakes with HBM that Intel don't have?

Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:40 pm

Finally, the chuckula meltdown ... I waited for days after the TR review, and am richly rewarded.

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