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JustAnEngineer
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Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:36 am

https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-confi ... next-month
The launch of refreshed Intel HEDT (High-End DeskTop) platform has been confirmed for next month. The CPUs based on LGA2066 socket will be 1.74x to 2.09x more powerful per dollar than existing Skylake-X architecture (it does not state if we are looking at 9th Gen Refresh or 7th Gen). The new HEDT platform will still offer the same core count as SKL-X architecture, which is up to 18-cores.

How did they get 74% increase in performance per dollar? Add 5% performance and cut the price by 40%?
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:14 am

JustAnEngineer wrote:
https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-confirms-cascade-lake-x-hedt-and-i9-9900ks-launching-next-month
The launch of refreshed Intel HEDT (High-End DeskTop) platform has been confirmed for next month. The CPUs based on LGA2066 socket will be 1.74x to 2.09x more powerful per dollar than existing Skylake-X architecture (it does not state if we are looking at 9th Gen Refresh or 7th Gen). The new HEDT platform will still offer the same core count as SKL-X architecture, which is up to 18-cores.

How did they get 74% increase in performance per dollar? Add 5% performance and cut the price by 40%?

Given that it's Intel, more than likely.
 
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:17 pm

"We were absolutely charging as much as we could since AMD was crap. Now we have to compete. Thanks AMD! :("
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:12 am

JustAnEngineer wrote:
https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-confirms-cascade-lake-x-hedt-and-i9-9900ks-launching-next-month
The launch of refreshed Intel HEDT (High-End DeskTop) platform has been confirmed for next month. The CPUs based on LGA2066 socket will be 1.74x to 2.09x more powerful per dollar than existing Skylake-X architecture (it does not state if we are looking at 9th Gen Refresh or 7th Gen). The new HEDT platform will still offer the same core count as SKL-X architecture, which is up to 18-cores.

How did they get 74% increase in performance[1] per dollar[2]? Add 5% performance and cut the price by 40%?


[1]performance measured in single thread application using new accelerators within architecture.
[2]Price comparison based on lauch Skylake-X prices vs. special discount rate for limited run of Cascade Lake-X CPUs*


*while stocks last.

No comment on speculation that the starting stock level is less than 5 CPUs worldwide.
 
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:46 am

By and large it looks like an incremental update to Skylake-X. Spectre and Meltdown mitigations are nice and there's a slight bump to AVX-512 support, so if anybody out there's ravening for LGA 2066 it'll probably be the best option. I've got a sneaking feeling Threadripper v3 is going to be quite formidable, which explains Intel's unannounced-but-easy-to-infer price drops for the new parts. The reviews are gonna be interesting.
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:37 pm

Amiga500+ wrote:
JustAnEngineer wrote:
https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-confirms-cascade-lake-x-hedt-and-i9-9900ks-launching-next-month
The launch of refreshed Intel HEDT (High-End DeskTop) platform has been confirmed for next month. The CPUs based on LGA2066 socket will be 1.74x to 2.09x more powerful per dollar than existing Skylake-X architecture (it does not state if we are looking at 9th Gen Refresh or 7th Gen). The new HEDT platform will still offer the same core count as SKL-X architecture, which is up to 18-cores.

How did they get 74% increase in performance[1] per dollar[2]? Add 5% performance and cut the price by 40%?


[1]performance measured in single thread application using new accelerators within architecture.
[2]Price comparison based on lauch Skylake-X prices vs. special discount rate for limited run of Cascade Lake-X CPUs*


*while stocks last.

No comment on speculation that the starting stock level is less than 5 CPUs worldwide.


[1]performance measured in single thread application using new accelerators within architecture.

That's a bit ominous, and I own a 7940x. Is that the AVX 512 new instruction? If it's good enough I'll probably replace my 7940x, but, well I'll wait for benches. lol.
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:42 pm

thecoldanddarkone wrote:
Amiga500+ wrote:
JustAnEngineer wrote:
https://videocardz.com/newz/intel-confirms-cascade-lake-x-hedt-and-i9-9900ks-launching-next-month

How did they get 74% increase in performance[1] per dollar[2]? Add 5% performance and cut the price by 40%?


[1]performance measured in single thread application using new accelerators within architecture.
[2]Price comparison based on lauch Skylake-X prices vs. special discount rate for limited run of Cascade Lake-X CPUs*


*while stocks last.

No comment on speculation that the starting stock level is less than 5 CPUs worldwide.


[1]performance measured in single thread application using new accelerators within architecture.

That's a bit ominous, and I own a 7940x. Is that the AVX 512 new instruction? If it's good enough I'll probably replace my 7940x, but, well I'll wait for benches. lol.


Skylake-X and Cascade Lake-X are really similar internally. The new AVX-512 instructions are apparently tuned for CPU-driven machine learning, so I'd guess their general applicability is pretty low. As JustAnEngineer said, they're probably dropping the prices considerably to prop up this value-for-money proposition.
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:52 pm

Concupiscence wrote:
thecoldanddarkone wrote:
Amiga500+ wrote:

[1]performance measured in single thread application using new accelerators within architecture.
[2]Price comparison based on lauch Skylake-X prices vs. special discount rate for limited run of Cascade Lake-X CPUs*


*while stocks last.

No comment on speculation that the starting stock level is less than 5 CPUs worldwide.


[1]performance measured in single thread application using new accelerators within architecture.

That's a bit ominous, and I own a 7940x. Is that the AVX 512 new instruction? If it's good enough I'll probably replace my 7940x, but, well I'll wait for benches. lol.


Skylake-X and Cascade Lake-X are really similar internally. The new AVX-512 instructions are apparently tuned for CPU-driven machine learning, so I'd guess their general applicability is pretty low. As JustAnEngineer said, they're probably dropping the prices considerably to prop up this value-for-money proposition.


I assume as much, it's not like they have any competition for the higher core count tr3 (whenever it releases). Either way, prices dropping, stuff releasing makes it nice. I really don't need anything more than 12-16 cores. If they reprice x299 to be mid tier, then so be it.
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:12 pm

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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:16 pm

Good God. I felt like I'd gotten a decent deal on my 7940x at ~$1100 after taxes before, but that's unquestionably better. Still, refined 14nm++ process or no, those clocks are nosebleed high... I can only wonder what the real power and thermal demands are gonna be.
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:58 pm

It looks like price wars are about to begin in the HEDT market.
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:09 pm

Krogoth wrote:
It looks like price wars are about to begin in the HEDT market.

When I saw this, I heard it in my head as "Begun, the price war has!" (in a Yoda voice).
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:47 pm

Seeing Intel price that 12/24 core CPU at nearly $700 versus the far cheaper (and more PCIe lane) 3900X is funny, especially with the gap in motherboard pricing.

It's a great time to be an enthusiast.
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:20 pm

I'm wondering if Intel is willing to go as far as supporting unbuffered ECC memory on those SKUs.
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:54 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
How did they get 74% increase in performance per dollar? Add 5% performance and cut the price by 40%?
They upped performance by 8% and cut prices by 48% to get the 109% increase in performance per dollar on the top end.
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:36 pm

Waco wrote:
Seeing Intel price that 12/24 core CPU at nearly $700 versus the far cheaper (and more PCIe lane) 3900X is funny, especially with the gap in motherboard pricing.

It's a great time to be an enthusiast.


That it is. I dunno how the 3900x’s PCIe lane situation stacks up - I thought it was a 24 lane part, but I could be wrong. But the Cascade Lake-X parts do support quad channel memory and a ton of lanes. And they were overpriced before, sure, but those features ain’t cheap anyway.
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:38 pm

Concupiscence wrote:
Waco wrote:
Seeing Intel price that 12/24 core CPU at nearly $700 versus the far cheaper (and more PCIe lane) 3900X is funny, especially with the gap in motherboard pricing.

It's a great time to be an enthusiast.


That it is. I dunno how the 3900x’s PCIe lane situation stacks up - I thought it was a 24 lane part, but I could be wrong. But the Cascade Lake-X parts do support quad channel memory and a ton of lanes. And they were overpriced before, sure, but those features ain’t cheap anyway.

I figure PCIe 4.0 lanes ~= 2X the PCIe 3.0 lanes on Intel chips. Probably not a great way to think about it, but it's true for bandwidth.
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:30 am

Since the info was leaked early, Intel has lifted the embargo on Cascade Lake-X.
https://hothardware.com/news/intel-casc ... readripper
https://www.anandtech.com/show/14925/in ... under-1000
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:47 am

48 lanes of PCIe 3.0 - so exactly the same amount of PCIe bandwidth as desktop Ryzen (not Threadripper 3, which I think is safe to assume will have ~64 lanes of PCIe 4.0).
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:23 pm

Waco wrote:
48 lanes of PCIe 3.0 - so exactly the same amount of PCIe bandwidth as desktop Ryzen (not Threadripper 3, which I think is safe to assume will have ~64 lanes of PCIe 4.0).


A bit theoretical however, because PCIe 4.0 devices aren't very common yet. Even then, you'll probably be using x16 lanes on your GPU still... for whatever reason. Just because of how the physical connectors are set up.

PCIe 4.0 2x lane M.2 drives don't really exist either. PCIe 4.0 SSDs seem to be 4x lanes, the same as PCIe 3.0.
 
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:30 pm

Can the south ridge take a 8x PCIe4 from the CPU to a 16x PCIe3 to the GPU?
 
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:40 pm

dragontamer5788 wrote:
A bit theoretical however, because PCIe 4.0 devices aren't very common yet. Even then, you'll probably be using x16 lanes on your GPU still... for whatever reason. Just because of how the physical connectors are set up.

PCIe 4.0 2x lane M.2 drives don't really exist either. PCIe 4.0 SSDs seem to be 4x lanes, the same as PCIe 3.0.

Sure, but lane bifurcation is pretty straightforward and PCIe 4.0 is only going to become more common in the near future. It's cheaper for everyone to implement devices with fewer lanes.
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:24 pm

Waco wrote:
dragontamer5788 wrote:
A bit theoretical however, because PCIe 4.0 devices aren't very common yet. Even then, you'll probably be using x16 lanes on your GPU still... for whatever reason. Just because of how the physical connectors are set up.

PCIe 4.0 2x lane M.2 drives don't really exist either. PCIe 4.0 SSDs seem to be 4x lanes, the same as PCIe 3.0.

Sure, but lane bifurcation is pretty straightforward and PCIe 4.0 is only going to become more common in the near future. It's cheaper for everyone to implement devices with fewer lanes.


At this moment I can't think of a single reason to get 24 pcie 4x lanes verse 48 pcie 3x lanes (except it's cheaper). Even with SSD's, the main limitation in most workloads isn't the sequential, it's random (and generally Low Q depth random - even in a high percentage of workstation tasks). Bifurcation is only going to get you so far (and generally doesn't split them into 2x lanes anyways).

Yea, that might change in the future, but at this moment I'm not seeing it.
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:47 pm

Questions about 24 - 4 lanes of PCIe 4.0 versus 48 - 4 lanes of PCIe 3.0 aside, $foo Lake-X's big claim to fame versus the 3900x is quad-channel memory support. And I've got a question pertaining to that: while nobody can speak for Cascade Lake-X yet since the hardware isn't out, is there an actual, meaningful advantage to running nosebleed DDR4 speeds on Skylake-X? Everything quantitative I've read indicates that pushing past the nominal DDR4-2666 memory controller speed just results in the IMC running hotter with almost no meaningful performance benefit. If I'm wrong, I'd love to hear about it. Thank you!
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:22 pm

Concupiscence wrote:
Questions about 24 - 4 lanes of PCIe 4.0 versus 48 - 4 lanes of PCIe 3.0 aside, $foo Lake-X's big claim to fame versus the 3900x is quad-channel memory support. And I've got a question pertaining to that: while nobody can speak for Cascade Lake-X yet since the hardware isn't out, is there an actual, meaningful advantage to running nosebleed DDR4 speeds on Skylake-X? Everything quantitative I've read indicates that pushing past the nominal DDR4-2666 memory controller speed just results in the IMC running hotter with almost no meaningful performance benefit. If I'm wrong, I'd love to hear about it. Thank you!


It depends on the workload. In games (most of them anyways) it makes a difference. In many (not all) workstation tasks, it makes no real difference. I have some Samsung B dominators (dual rank) 4x16 (64gb total).

If you want me to run a specific free test, I can do that.
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:39 pm

I think the kit I’ve got in there is running DDR4-3000 I downclocked to reduce thermals, so I’ll just ramp it back up to spec. Thank you!
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:42 am

thecoldanddarkone wrote:
It depends on the workload. In games (most of them anyways) it makes a difference. In many (not all) workstation tasks, it makes no real difference. I have some Samsung B dominators (dual rank) 4x16 (64gb total).

If you want me to run a specific free test, I can do that.

To be clear, the latency reduction is what games typically benefit from, not the bandwidth increase. More bandwidth at equal latency is usually a wash, at least in most of the testing I've seen.
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:43 am

thecoldanddarkone wrote:
At this moment I can't think of a single reason to get 24 pcie 4x lanes verse 48 pcie 3x lanes (except it's cheaper). Even with SSD's, the main limitation in most workloads isn't the sequential, it's random (and generally Low Q depth random - even in a high percentage of workstation tasks). Bifurcation is only going to get you so far (and generally doesn't split them into 2x lanes anyways).

Yea, that might change in the future, but at this moment I'm not seeing it.

Sure, it's definitely not a "today" thing, but it's definitely a "soon in the future" thing.

thecoldanddarkone wrote:
It depends on the workload. In games (most of them anyways) it makes a difference. In many (not all) workstation tasks, it makes no real difference. I have some Samsung B dominators (dual rank) 4x16 (64gb total).

If you want me to run a specific free test, I can do that.

To be clear, the latency reduction is what games typically benefit from, not the bandwidth increase. More bandwidth at equal latency is usually a wash, at least in most of the testing I've seen.
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:10 am

Waco wrote:
thecoldanddarkone wrote:
At this moment I can't think of a single reason to get 24 pcie 4x lanes verse 48 pcie 3x lanes (except it's cheaper). Even with SSD's, the main limitation in most workloads isn't the sequential, it's random (and generally Low Q depth random - even in a high percentage of workstation tasks). Bifurcation is only going to get you so far (and generally doesn't split them into 2x lanes anyways).

Yea, that might change in the future, but at this moment I'm not seeing it.

Sure, it's definitely not a "today" thing, but it's definitely a "soon in the future" thing.

thecoldanddarkone wrote:
It depends on the workload. In games (most of them anyways) it makes a difference. In many (not all) workstation tasks, it makes no real difference. I have some Samsung B dominators (dual rank) 4x16 (64gb total).

If you want me to run a specific free test, I can do that.

To be clear, the latency reduction is what games typically benefit from, not the bandwidth increase. More bandwidth at equal latency is usually a wash, at least in most of the testing I've seen.


It depends on the game in question. Bandwidth does matter in some titles (more so if you are using an iGPU) while latency is more important in other content. The pre-fetching and massive on-die caches on modern CPUs mask most of the tangible benefits of getting faster memory in mainstream applications/games though.
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Re: Cascade Lake-X HEDT to go up against Threadripper 3

Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:01 am

thecoldanddarkone wrote:
Concupiscence wrote:
Questions about 24 - 4 lanes of PCIe 4.0 versus 48 - 4 lanes of PCIe 3.0 aside, $foo Lake-X's big claim to fame versus the 3900x is quad-channel memory support. And I've got a question pertaining to that: while nobody can speak for Cascade Lake-X yet since the hardware isn't out, is there an actual, meaningful advantage to running nosebleed DDR4 speeds on Skylake-X? Everything quantitative I've read indicates that pushing past the nominal DDR4-2666 memory controller speed just results in the IMC running hotter with almost no meaningful performance benefit. If I'm wrong, I'd love to hear about it. Thank you!


It depends on the workload. In games (most of them anyways) it makes a difference. In many (not all) workstation tasks, it makes no real difference. I have some Samsung B dominators (dual rank) 4x16 (64gb total).

If you want me to run a specific free test, I can do that.


Its something that is incredibly important for some workloads and absolutely irrelevant for others. In some workstation loads - i.e. CFD - you simply cannot get enough memory bandwidth.

A typical rule of thumb, for a non trivial simulation, is that you need 1 memory channel per 3 threads to avoid memory bandwidth saturation.

So, on a 4 ch memory controller, anything above 12 cores (SMT = OFF) starts to see greatly diminished scaling. Anything above 16 cores will likely see degrading performance!!

Now, that approximate rule of thumb will be based off workstations operating within JDEC spec. So if you can increase bandwidth by clocking DDR4 higher, you can change that around a bit.

For instance, if you are on a Skylake with memory rated at 2400 MHz, but can run at 4000 MHz on DDR4; you have just upped bandwidth by 55%. So instead of 3 cores a channel, you are nearing 5 cores /memory channel.[1]

Or Zen1.1; at 2666 MHz DDR4, bandwidth is ~40 GB/s. At 3733, that is ~53 GB/s. Or shifting toward 4/cores channel.[2]


[1]https://www.techspot.com/article/1171-ddr4-4000-mhz-performance/
[2]https://www.legitreviews.com/ddr4-memory-scaling-performance-with-ryzen-7-2700x-on-the-amd-x470-platform_205154

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