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DPete27
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Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:38 am

I'm trying to wrap my head around a planned upgrade for the week of Black Friday. I don't know if I've just been conditioned for so long that "Intel is better" but I still have these lingering feelings that AMD's Ryzen CPUs are still working through some growing pains. It also seems that we're in the midst of an awkward transition point from both Intel and AMD. Intel can't get off 14nm and/or Skylake to save themselves, and AMD can't get enough 7nm supply to truly crush the compeition and is rumored to be releasing new "quad-threading(?)" next year. Problem is my i5-3570K is getting tired, and I just don't know if I can push this another 6+ months....
I would like to try my hand at Cyberpunk 2077 next year, but generally I don't do much in the way of online gaming (co-op only), mostly single player. I also don't [never will] stream, and I'm pretty OCD about having the least number of things running concurrently at any given time, especially while gaming. The only real thing I use my PC for these days is gaming. I fully understand that the "core race" is aimed toward a demographic that I'm not part of. (I hate to say this) but I just want a CPU that will last me 5-6 years for my current usage.

Ryzen 3600/3600X + B550 mobo
  • I'm still not real happy with the process of overclocking (or lack thereof with Ryzen 3xxx) disabling idle states.
  • Ryzen 3xxx misleading advertising of clock speeds. Obviously benchmarks negate this, but it rubs me the wrong way.
  • X570 came off as a rushed-to-market half-baked release, I'm definitely looking at B550. The only thing I'm interested in for PCIe4.0 is SSD, and even that isn't a big issue since PCIe4.0 SSDs are not price-competitive (yet).
  • Obviously Ryzen 3xxx is performance competitive with Intel 8th/9th gen

Intel 10th gen i5 + Z470
  • The rumors are getting a bit disjointed at this point, is Comet Lake actually a new architecture?
  • Still 14nm?.....or will this be 10nm? Obviously they split 14/10 in the mobile arena so it seems 10nm still isn't ready.
  • 10th gen i5 is apparently supposed to be 6c/12t like the Ryzen 3600 but with higher clockspeeds, which would seem beneficial for my use case
  • More mature/familiar mobo platform and overclocking
  • Intel has recently been touting its ability to lower pricing to stay price competitive with AMD, not sure what that will amount to...
  • Still fuzzy details on when the actual launch date is
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:12 am

Intel 10th desktop SKUs are going to be more Skylake derivatives. Comet Lake is going to be Coffee Lake with more bugfixes (hardware-level mitigations) and extra two cores on the die with updated iGPU. The platform is supposedly going to be revamped for more PCIe lanes (via PCH which will likely require active cooling/massive heatsink).

CPU Overclocking in itself is no longer pracitcal. Both companies have been pushing their silicon next to the bleeding edge which leaves almost no headroom without resorting to massive overvolting/exotic cooling. They have been clamping down lesser SKUs/platforms so no more ~$99-149 CPU going near the speed of a higher-end SKU.
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:41 am

My vote goes for Ryzen 3xxx and you can have it now rather than waiting for Intel to get their act together. 10th gen could be faster but do you really want to wait to find out? And then a year or two later get a nice performance downgrade due to a speculative execution fix?
 
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:51 pm

If you’re buying today, AMD’s Ryzen 3000 series processors offer compelling value compared to Intel’s Coffee Lake Refresh unless you need that last little bit of IPC advantage that you can get by splurging on a power-hungry Core i7-9700K. If, in the future, Intel slashes prices on Comet Lake desktop CPUs the way that they did with the latest refresh of their HEDT CPUs, we may need to wait to read reviews.

Given that Intel is unable to supply the number of 14nm processors that HP and Lenovo are trying to buy at current prices, they don’t have a pressing need to slash prices to increase sales volume that their manufacturing plants cannot fulfill. I’d bet on AMD continuing to be the better value as long as TSMC keeps up the supply of 7nm dies.

As Krogoth mentioned, manual overclocking doesn’t make sense for modern CPUs. Give one of them some over-the-top cooling and let it manage its own maximum clocks and voltages.
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K-L-Waster
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:35 am

Krogoth wrote:
CPU Overclocking in itself is no longer pracitcal. Both companies have been pushing their silicon next to the bleeding edge which leaves almost no headroom without resorting to massive overvolting/exotic cooling.


Plus on top of that RyZen behaves more like a GPU, in that as long as it has sufficient cooling it will boost 'til the cows come home, much like GPUs do. IIRC, in his 2700X review Jeff basically said that XFR could match his best manual overclock, and all he had to do was put a good cooler on it and let it do it's thing.

Getting back to the OP's question, my last several systems have been Intel based, but if I was building a gaming-oriented system today (say, replacing the HTPC / living room gaming system in my sig) it would be an R5 3600 based system.
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DPete27
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:49 pm

K-L-Waster wrote:
Plus on top of that RyZen behaves more like a GPU, in that as long as it has sufficient cooling it will boost 'til the cows come home, much like GPUs do..

Yeah....AMD does it by temps (junction), so if you don't have adequate cooling you can expect to not hit max boost clocks. But that's where the AMD advertising has soured things to me. Advertising boost clocks that most people can't/aren't achieving even with 240mm+ AIOs.

Intel's is more controlled by power consumption (PL2 = ~1.25 * TDP from Intel, but the mobo vendors can change this at will along with the duration of PL2 even to infinity) but obviously there's the Tjmax in place (100C) if things get out of hand with cooling. Mobo manufacturers do/have typically set either PL2 to something higher than you'd expect from the 1->n core turbo power consumption and most set the PL2 duration to infinity. Hence why we've all become accustomed to seeing the frequency that's advertised on the box even if you're running a multi-day 100% load.

As I understand it, most monitoring tools are displaying Intel's Tj, whereas AMD chips are showing Tpackage [therefore leading consumers to believe that AMD chips run cooler]
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:18 pm

(I hate to say this) but I just want a CPU that will last me 5-6 years for my current usage.


PS5 and XBox Scarlet will be 8c / 16t, which may suggest that future games will actually scale to 16-threads. Otherwise, I don't see CPUs being a major problem over the next 5 years.

If you're willing to wait for 10th Gen Intel, you might as well wait. Even if you buy AMD Zen at that point, AMD might have to drop prices due to Intel's competition.
 
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Sat Nov 02, 2019 7:07 pm

DPete27 wrote:
Problem is my i5-3570K is getting tired, and I just don't know if I can push this another 6+ months....
I would like to try my hand at Cyberpunk 2077 next year


lol, I have almost the same CPU as you (3570 without K). except, yours has an unlocked multiplier. you think it won't be good enough for Cyberpunk?
 
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:14 pm

DPete27 wrote:
Intel 10th gen i5 + Z470


Leaked info: https://wccftech.com/intel-10th-gen-com ... form-leak/

Looks pretty legit. The thing that immediately pops out for me and literally crying for attention is Quadcore Audio DSP. Hmmm...might just be what both gamers and audiophiles will want to factor into their purchasing decision. Also, Intel Core i5-10500 could be the new price/performance champ, if Intel doesn't F it up royally.
 
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:23 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
DPete27 wrote:
Intel 10th gen i5 + Z470

Leaked info: https://wccftech.com/intel-10th-gen-com ... form-leak/

Looks pretty legit. The thing that immediately pops out for me and literally crying for attention is Quadcore Audio DSP. Hmmm...might just be what both gamers and audiophiles will want to factor into their purchasing decision. Also, Intel Core i5-10500 could be the new price/performance champ, if Intel doesn't F it up royally.

Gamers, sure. Ditto VR. Better positional audio with sophisticated HRTF would be exciting.

I don't see how this would have any applicability to audiophiles though. They want the pure original signal as it was originally laid down by the recording/mastering engineers, not something that has been mangled by some 3rd party's DSP "voodoo".
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:42 pm

just brew it! wrote:
I don't see how this would have any applicability to audiophiles though.


We'll know more on launch about that. But it would be a missed opportunity if Intel doesn't clean up the audio signal through better shielding and just making integrated audio sound better in general.
 
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:01 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
I don't see how this would have any applicability to audiophiles though.

We'll know more on launch about that. But it would be a missed opportunity if Intel doesn't clean up the audio signal through better shielding and just making integrated audio sound better in general.

That isn't Intel's problem to solve. There have been decent onboard audio chips available since the mid-2000s; one of the best onboard audio implementations I've ever heard was on an Asus Socket AM2+ motherboard from about 10 years ago. It comes down to using quality analog components and laying out the motherboard's audio section properly to minimize interference. That's up to the motherboard vendors.
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:10 pm

just brew it! wrote:
That's up to the motherboard vendors.


True but Intel might set an acceptable audio quality baseline for motherboard vendors to follow. Intel could be gearing up and putting all the pieces in place to become the one-stop solution for gamers and enthusiasts, especially with the impending launch of their Xe GPU. I suppose they figure that they can't beat AMD on engineering alone now that AMD has the upper hand in that area so they will try other ways to blow smoke and distract their target audience away from AMD. They have a larger marketing budget set aside for this purpose.
 
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:43 pm

What we have today is way too much pluribus and not enough unum.
 
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:13 pm

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
True but Intel might set an acceptable audio quality baseline for motherboard vendors to follow. Intel could be gearing up and putting all the pieces in place to become the one-stop solution for gamers and enthusiasts, especially with the impending launch of their Xe GPU. I suppose they figure that they can't beat AMD on engineering alone now that AMD has the upper hand in that area so they will try other ways to blow smoke and distract their target audience away from AMD. They have a larger marketing budget set aside for this purpose.

Intel DOES set de facto standards for PC audio implementations, first with the AC97 standard, and later with the Intel High Definition Audio specification. But these standards are really more of a minimum baseline, and define things like how the interface between the CPU and the audio codec works and header pinouts; i.e. they're about compatibility and interoperability, not audio quality. It's not really Intel's place to dictate that sort of thing; there should be room in the market for lower-cost "good enough" solutions that satisfy 95% of the public, as well as more costly high-end audiophile quality implementations for those willing to pay for it.

And what about after the signal leaves the motherboard? Front panel case wiring and external patch cords are a very common source of noise pickup for PC audio; should Intel be dictating cable specifications for all internal and external analog audio wiring? Case, headphone, and speaker manufacturers would laugh at them, and ignore whatever spec they came up with.
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Igor_Kavinski
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:55 pm

Would be crazy indeed if they start doing all that.
 
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:56 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?id=522


Wow. Trust the Cap to remember truly unique stuff :lol:
 
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:58 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:
http://www.hardwarezone.com/articles/view.php?id=522

Wow. Trust the Cap to remember truly unique stuff :lol:

I remember reading about that when it came out back in the day. Aside from the sheer ridiculousness of hanging a tube amp off of an early-'00s era Realtek codec, the thought of putting something that operates at a couple of hundred volts right next to your PCI slots is terrifying!
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DPete27
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:40 pm

One more thought. There's always people posting in the forums about how their OC'd CPU loses stable frequency over time. As AMD & Intel push their silicon to the absolute limit, does anyone else feel like we're being "forced" into this inevitable outcome straight from the manufacturers?
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:06 pm

AMD and Intel have unlocked almost all of the untapped overclocking potential of their consumer CPUs and have made it available to everyone who installs good cooling in their systems.
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:17 pm

DPete27 wrote:
One more thought. There's always people posting in the forums about how their OC'd CPU loses stable frequency over time. As AMD & Intel push their silicon to the absolute limit, does anyone else feel like we're being "forced" into this inevitable outcome straight from the manufacturers?

I hope that isn't the case, but I guess we'll know any day now!
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DPete27
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:19 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
AMD and Intel have unlocked almost all of the untapped overclocking potential of their consumer CPUs and have made it available to everyone who installs good cooling in their systems.

What I'm saying though, is that every CPU basically comes factory OC'd these days. How's that going to turn out for chip longevity when OCing to that degree generally hasn't aged well.
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:01 am

I would think that they probably have built-in safeguards to ensure data integrity. If a certain Turbo Boost speed is causing errors, the CPU will silently discard the erroneous data and start over at a slightly lower speed until it achieves stability. So maybe the CPU's will degrade and get slow over time but may still remain usable. Someone needs to benchmark a heavily used Nehalem CPU to see if it is still posting the same scores after all these years of abuse.
 
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:41 am

Igor_Kavinski wrote:
I would think that they probably have built-in safeguards to ensure data integrity. If a certain Turbo Boost speed is causing errors, the CPU will silently discard the erroneous data and start over at a slightly lower speed until it achieves stability.


Things like this are called RAS (reliability, availability, serviceability) features and are only implemented in Xeons, and Xeons are heavily non-overclocked.

https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/new-reliability-availability-and-serviceability-ras-features-in-the-intel-xeon-processor
 
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Re: Ryzen 3xxx or Intel 10th?

Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:15 am

DPete27 wrote:
JustAnEngineer wrote:
AMD and Intel have unlocked almost all of the untapped overclocking potential of their consumer CPUs and have made it available to everyone who installs good cooling in their systems.

What I'm saying though, is that every CPU basically comes factory OC'd these days. How's that going to turn out for chip longevity when OCing to that degree generally hasn't aged well.


I think the main difference is, with manual overclocks as the chip ages the user eventually finds their OC is no longer stable and they have to manually back it out to get the system to function. With systems like Precision Boost (and GPU Boost etc. on the GPU side, which do similar things), the system itself finds the optimal power and frequency levels on a moment to moment basis.

So over time, it's plausible to expect the automatic OC will end up providing a gradually reduced boost clock. But odds are it won't actually cause the end user a system-down-time-to-trouble-shoot problem.
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