Personal computing discussed
Moderators: renee, SecretSquirrel, just brew it!
southrncomfortjm wrote:Thing is, there's a huge demand for good coders out there and traditional CS programs at universities will never turn out enough people to fill the jobs. So, in that way, maybe these work since there is no alternative.
SecretSquirrel wrote:southrncomfortjm wrote:Thing is, there's a huge demand for good coders out there and traditional CS programs at universities will never turn out enough people to fill the jobs. So, in that way, maybe these work since there is no alternative.
Fixed that for you. Not to burst your bubble, but if you expect to come out of one of these programs and get a job making $75k+ a year, you are misguided at best. A career change into a field in which you have no experience at all is, effectively, starting over. Let's assume that prior education and the "school of life" addresses the majority of non-degree related university study and that you are bright and the bootcamp program gives a reasonably equivalent understanding of web coding. That puts you in line to compete for entry level web development jobs.
How many of those coding jobs have no experience requirements? How many don't require a four year degree in a computer field?
My advise -- free, so it's worth what you paid for it -- start leaning the technology and languages on your own. Read books (or web sites). Figure out how to get a web development system up and running. Do something with it. If you have the interest, determination, and ability to do these things on your own, then I would consider formal schooling. Why learn on your own first? You are talking about changing careers. That's not easy and if you have the drive and talent, and interest, to learn on your own, then you have a chance of making the switch and eventually being competitive. If can't learn it on your own, at least to some degree, then there isn't much hope for success in the development world where you will be expected to have the skills needed for your job in order to be hired.
To answer your question: when I am hiring, your degree actually matters very little. What matters more, to me, is what you have done since. Are you self motivated? Are you a continuous learner? Can you think logically and critically? Then we get into the technical skills -- are they what I need? Can you very rapidly pick up technologies we use that you aren't familiar with? Do you have experience with tools or technologies I am interested in using but don't have anyone internally with experience using?
--SS
southrncomfortjm wrote:I know I'd be going from a field I'm well established in (being an attorney), going to something new, and starting in entry level jobs, but it seems like it could be exciting compared to what I do now. I want to create something, not just deal with other people's problems. I have a strong foundation in handling complex problems, learning new skills, etc, that will transition well to web development. I just need the core technical skills which is what these bootcamps are supposed to get me.
southrncomfortjm wrote:I've signed up for Code Academy Pro to get an adviser while I learn HTML, CSS, JS, angularJS, jquery, and then ruby on rails. I'd work to complete that entire "full stack" development court before enrolling in any bootcamp. The goal would be to have a really strong foundation before jumping into one of the bootcamps so that I can spend my time sharpening my skills. Hopefully I can get good enough on my own to start building a portfolio and working on some open source projects. If I drag out the timetable enough, I may be able to show I do have some experience by pointing to projects I've completed, maybe even some freelance ones.
So yeah, the ultimate goal is creating a really strong portfolio that would showcase that I have the knowledge and skills an employer needs. By showing I have the skills, or can pick them up quickly, I can hopefully get around the need for a 4 year CS degree.
SecretSquirrel wrote:If you are trying to get away from dealing with other people's problems, then you may be disappointed with the realities of the IT/programming world. You will spend most of your time bailing people out of their bad decisions, counseling them on a proper approach and being ignored, and working against unreasonable and unrealistic deadlines. Sound familiar?
just brew it! wrote:SecretSquirrel wrote:If you are trying to get away from dealing with other people's problems, then you may be disappointed with the realities of the IT/programming world. You will spend most of your time bailing people out of their bad decisions, counseling them on a proper approach and being ignored, and working against unreasonable and unrealistic deadlines. Sound familiar?
Don't forget the office politics. If you go the contract route you may be able to (somewhat) stay above the fray, but you'll never get away from it completely.
southrncomfortjm wrote:just brew it! wrote:Don't forget the office politics. If you go the contract route you may be able to (somewhat) stay above the fray, but you'll never get away from it completely.
Office politics aren't really an issue either. I'd like to work on a team working towards a common goal. As an attorney, I normally work alone, even though I am part of a larger "team."
just brew it! wrote:SecretSquirrel wrote:If you are trying to get away from dealing with other people's problems, then you may be disappointed with the realities of the IT/programming world. You will spend most of your time bailing people out of their bad decisions, counseling them on a proper approach and being ignored, and working against unreasonable and unrealistic deadlines. Sound familiar?
Don't forget the office politics. If you go the contract route you may be able to (somewhat) stay above the fray, but you'll never get away from it completely.
just brew it! wrote:southrncomfortjm wrote:just brew it! wrote:Don't forget the office politics. If you go the contract route you may be able to (somewhat) stay above the fray, but you'll never get away from it completely.
Office politics aren't really an issue either. I'd like to work on a team working towards a common goal. As an attorney, I normally work alone, even though I am part of a larger "team."
Office politics means there will be disagreement over what that common goal is, and/or how to get there.
southrncomfortjm wrote:Probably the biggest thing I'd carry forward from my law training to coding is the need to constantly teach myself. My law degree didn't teach me how to be a lawyer, it taught me how to think and communicate like a lawyer. I expect about the same from any coding bootcamp - it won't make me an expert coder, but I'll know the languages and build from there.
My issue with my law practice is that ALL I deal with is fixing other people's problems. I create nothing lasting.
Coding is obviously all about solving problems and overcoming failure (from what I've seen, coding is really about iterating until your code actually works, with tons of failure in between). So, at least with coding, I have something tangible that I've created at the end. I can't help being a problem solver, it's what I do and I do it really well. People coming to me with a crisis is nothing new. I just want to create something as part of my job, I don't actually mind the problem solving.
Will keep the other stuff in mind as I go forward. Thanks again!
Igor_Kavinski wrote:Let the rewiring of your neuronal circuits commence!
SecretSquirrel wrote:southrncomfortjm wrote:Probably the biggest thing I'd carry forward from my law training to coding is the need to constantly teach myself. My law degree didn't teach me how to be a lawyer, it taught me how to think and communicate like a lawyer. I expect about the same from any coding bootcamp - it won't make me an expert coder, but I'll know the languages and build from there.
My issue with my law practice is that ALL I deal with is fixing other people's problems. I create nothing lasting.
Coding is obviously all about solving problems and overcoming failure (from what I've seen, coding is really about iterating until your code actually works, with tons of failure in between). So, at least with coding, I have something tangible that I've created at the end. I can't help being a problem solver, it's what I do and I do it really well. People coming to me with a crisis is nothing new. I just want to create something as part of my job, I don't actually mind the problem solving.
Will keep the other stuff in mind as I go forward. Thanks again!
Want a job? Unfortunately I don't do webby stuff, but in all seriousness, you've got the underpinnings and outlook to go quite far. With a bit of luck, of course. Everybody needs a bit of luck.
One thing that you probably won't get taught in a bootcamp, or even in many university programs: planning and design. Think through what your are trying to do and how you want to approach it before you start. Consider the implications of your decisions as far forward as you can see. That will cut down on unneeded iterations. Also, when something doesn't work, take time to understand why. So many programmers simply iterate, randomly changing things until they get something they think works. They have no real idea what the underlying problem was and what the impact and unintended consequences of their changes is.
--SS
derFunkenstein wrote:
So good luck to you, man.
derFunkenstein wrote:Igor_Kavinski wrote:Let the rewiring of your neuronal circuits commence!
Holy crap, this is so true. The first month or six weeks that I was trying to figure out the Genero language and figure out how everything went together, I felt like I was physically paralyzed in thought. I'd just sit there with my eyes closed and my head would hurt. And then suddenly it started coming to me. I'm pretty decent with it now, and I'm getting better at the JavaScript that controls the front end. I've got a long way to go, I'm sure, but it's getting easier. By next fall when I've got a year and more tools under my belt, we'll see what I can do.
Ikepuska wrote:I was a back end programmer before I moved management track and do datacenter focused stuff now so take my advice with a grain of salt please.
That said, one thing that made up for inexperience was consistent commits to major open source projects. I had one hire that was technically a recent graduate with a BS. However he'd been submitting patches to the linux kernel for years as a HS and college student, and a great many of them were pulled. That's in many ways the equivalent of a portfolio for a designer or artist, it shows the underlying talent and information on basic skill. It doesn't show how well the person will handle the actual structure of the job and the personality fit within the org, but that's my job to find out, not his to prove per se. The candidate had already proved he had the skills.
It also gives you a pretty good idea of how to work within the coding standards of different organizations and various other useful lessons.
southrncomfortjm wrote:My issue with my law practice is that ALL I deal with is fixing other people's problems. I create nothing lasting.
superjawes wrote:southrncomfortjm wrote:My issue with my law practice is that ALL I deal with is fixing other people's problems. I create nothing lasting.
Couple things...first, you are probably still going to be fixing other people's problems as a coder, ESPECIALLY if you end up being good at it.
Second, why not just change up your specialty? Granted, I'm not sure exactly what you do right now, but I do know that some lawyers do work on real deliverables. Perhaps a focus on IP or housing law would allow you to work on legal documents--actual deliverables--and less on "fixing other people's problems".
I have an engineering degree, and my school brought in engineers-turned-lawyers to speak on the overlap between engineering and law. They pointed out that we have to sign legal documents when we accept jobs. They also pointed out that with a BS in engineering might be better suited at untangling patent cases, offering another sensible path to make use of both engineering and law schools.
southrncomfortjm wrote:Just finished up (re)-learning HTML and CSS last night with Code Academy. Going to work through the projects they have to solidify those skills, then move on to javascript. After that, its angularJS, jQuery, and then Ruby on Rails. So yeah, hopefully in a few short months I can have the tools I need to build a few sweet looking sites and make a contribution on github.
southrncomfortjm wrote:So, I may be looking for a career change, and I'd be looking to become a web developer or software developer. I don't have a computer science degree, so I'd have to start from scratch.
NovusBogus wrote:I don't have any experience with bootcamps and don't know anyone who's hired/been hired based on that. Maybe it's a regional thing? However, my experience being unemployed in the late 2000s is that you won't get past the corporate HR robots without a four year tech degree and most "entry level" positions actually expect previous work experience on top of that. It's stupid, but I didn't make the rules...
There's likely some regional variation here too. California-based tech companies basically don't hire anybody that didn't go to Stanford because they're too cool for those other peasants (and then cry to anyone who'll listen about an imaginary talent shortage). Here in Minnesota, companies actually do fill open positions and so the deck isn't stacked heavily against the job seeker. Speaking as someone who traveled 2000 miles to take a job, as an engineer you do need to be prepared to go where the work is.