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So, I may be looking for a career change, and I'd be looking to become a web developer or software developer. I don't have a computer science degree, so I'd have to start from scratch.

I've been looking at various coding bootcamps, like General Assembly, Bloc, the Flatiron School, Hack Reactor, etc. Does anyone here have direct experience with any of these? I'd be particularly interested if anyone works for a company that has hired someone out of one of these programs.

The one I'm most interested in since it seems to be the most intensive and would prepare me best (if they can be believed) is Bloc's software development course. Its a 48-week program that covers Ruby on Rails, algorithms, and front end development. It's 4 times longer than most boot camps and seems like it would give me the best chance of being competitive for a good job. The program is untested as the first graduates won't come out until November.

Second place for me is General Assembly since I think they have a pretty good reputation. Its only 12 weeks and only for web development. Seems like I'd be able to create nice websites, but it would be a really surface level knowledge.

Working through a full stack web-development course at Code Academy to get my feet wet currently. Hope would be to go into any program with a significant leg up so that I can more easily keep up and create a really stellar portfolio.

My fear, of course, is investing $13000-$24000 and coming out with nothing. The collapse of other for-profit schools in the last year really gives me pause. Thing is, there's a huge demand for coders out there and traditional CS programs at universities will never turn out enough people to fill the jobs. So, in that way, maybe these work since there is no alternative.

Thanks for any info!

southrncomfortjm wrote:

Thing is, there's a huge demand for good coders out there and traditional CS programs at universities will never turn out enough people to fill the jobs. So, in that way, maybe these work since there is no alternative.

Fixed that for you. Not to burst your bubble, but if you expect to come out of one of these programs and get a job making $75k+ a year, you are misguided at best. A career change into a field in which you have no experience at all is, effectively, starting over. Let's assume that prior education and the "school of life" addresses the majority of non-degree related university study and that you are bright and the bootcamp program gives a reasonably equivalent understanding of web coding. That puts you in line to compete for entry level web development jobs.

How many of those coding jobs have no experience requirements? How many don't require a four year degree in a computer field?

My advise -- free, so it's worth what you paid for it -- start leaning the technology and languages on your own. Read books (or web sites). Figure out how to get a web development system up and running. Do something with it. If you have the interest, determination, and ability to do these things on your own, then I would consider formal schooling. Why learn on your own first? You are talking about changing careers. That's not easy and if you have the drive and talent, and interest, to learn on your own, then you have a chance of making the switch and eventually being competitive. If can't learn it on your own, at least to some degree, then there isn't much hope for success in the development world where you will be expected to have the skills needed for your job in order to be hired.

To answer your question: when I am hiring, your degree actually matters very little. What matters more, to me, is what you have done since. Are you self motivated? Are you a continuous learner? Can you think logically and critically? Then we get into the technical skills -- are they what I need? Can you very rapidly pick up technologies we use that you aren't familiar with? Do you have experience with tools or technologies I am interested in using but don't have anyone internally with experience using?

--SS

SecretSquirrel wrote:

southrncomfortjm wrote:

Thing is, there's a huge demand for good coders out there and traditional CS programs at universities will never turn out enough people to fill the jobs. So, in that way, maybe these work since there is no alternative.

Fixed that for you. Not to burst your bubble, but if you expect to come out of one of these programs and get a job making $75k+ a year, you are misguided at best. A career change into a field in which you have no experience at all is, effectively, starting over. Let's assume that prior education and the "school of life" addresses the majority of non-degree related university study and that you are bright and the bootcamp program gives a reasonably equivalent understanding of web coding. That puts you in line to compete for entry level web development jobs.

How many of those coding jobs have no experience requirements? How many don't require a four year degree in a computer field?

My advise -- free, so it's worth what you paid for it -- start leaning the technology and languages on your own. Read books (or web sites). Figure out how to get a web development system up and running. Do something with it. If you have the interest, determination, and ability to do these things on your own, then I would consider formal schooling. Why learn on your own first? You are talking about changing careers. That's not easy and if you have the drive and talent, and interest, to learn on your own, then you have a chance of making the switch and eventually being competitive. If can't learn it on your own, at least to some degree, then there isn't much hope for success in the development world where you will be expected to have the skills needed for your job in order to be hired.

To answer your question: when I am hiring, your degree actually matters very little. What matters more, to me, is what you have done since. Are you self motivated? Are you a continuous learner? Can you think logically and critically? Then we get into the technical skills -- are they what I need? Can you very rapidly pick up technologies we use that you aren't familiar with? Do you have experience with tools or technologies I am interested in using but don't have anyone internally with experience using?

--SS

Thank you for all the thoughts and ideas. Been thinking about this a lot and have considered a lot of the things you bring up.

I know I'd be going from a field I'm well established in (being an attorney), going to something new, and starting in entry level jobs, but it seems like it could be exciting compared to what I do now. I want to create something, not just deal with other people's problems. I have a strong foundation in handling complex problems, learning new skills, etc, that will transition well to web development. I just need the core technical skills which is what these bootcamps are supposed to get me.

I've signed up for Code Academy Pro to get an adviser while I learn HTML, CSS, JS, angularJS, jquery, and then ruby on rails. I'd work to complete that entire "full stack" development court before enrolling in any bootcamp. The goal would be to have a really strong foundation before jumping into one of the bootcamps so that I can spend my time sharpening my skills. Hopefully I can get good enough on my own to start building a portfolio and working on some open source projects. If I drag out the timetable enough, I may be able to show I do have some experience by pointing to projects I've completed, maybe even some freelance ones.

So yeah, the ultimate goal is creating a really strong portfolio that would showcase that I have the knowledge and skills an employer needs. By showing I have the skills, or can pick them up quickly, I can hopefully get around the need for a 4 year CS degree.

Thanks again!

southrncomfortjm wrote:

I know I'd be going from a field I'm well established in (being an attorney), going to something new, and starting in entry level jobs, but it seems like it could be exciting compared to what I do now. I want to create something, not just deal with other people's problems. I have a strong foundation in handling complex problems, learning new skills, etc, that will transition well to web development. I just need the core technical skills which is what these bootcamps are supposed to get me.

I have been told that lawyers and engineers think a lot alike. Very good at identifying unhandled or unexpected edge cases. Very good, logical thought. Good at problem solving. Given the background you are coming from, I will assume a law degree, passed the bar, reasonably successful, etc, then you are a good step ahead of most. A professional career to point back to goes a long way when dealing with business people and getting hired.

As far as wanting to create something, that I understand completely.

If you are trying to get away from dealing with other people's problems, then you may be disappointed with the realities of the IT/programming world. You will spend most of your time bailing people out of their bad decisions, counseling them on a proper approach and being ignored, and working against unreasonable and unrealistic deadlines. Sound familiar?

southrncomfortjm wrote:

I've signed up for Code Academy Pro to get an adviser while I learn HTML, CSS, JS, angularJS, jquery, and then ruby on rails. I'd work to complete that entire "full stack" development court before enrolling in any bootcamp. The goal would be to have a really strong foundation before jumping into one of the bootcamps so that I can spend my time sharpening my skills. Hopefully I can get good enough on my own to start building a portfolio and working on some open source projects. If I drag out the timetable enough, I may be able to show I do have some experience by pointing to projects I've completed, maybe even some freelance ones.

So yeah, the ultimate goal is creating a really strong portfolio that would showcase that I have the knowledge and skills an employer needs. By showing I have the skills, or can pick them up quickly, I can hopefully get around the need for a 4 year CS degree.

It sounds like you have a reasonable logical approach and have thought through most of the issues you will have to deal with. While you are working on the tech side of things, construct your narrative too. Just like an opening argument can set the tone for a court case, you initial pitch will set a hiring person's perception. Be able to concisely explain why you are changing careers, how your old career can help in your new, that you understand you are starting as a new, "junior", contributor in your new career, etc. Oh, and start working your contacts. Stay in touch with anyone you meet in a technical role, especially if they are involved in something you might want to pursue in the future. The best, and most fun jobs come from knowing the right person at the right time.

Good luck,
--SS

SecretSquirrel wrote:

If you are trying to get away from dealing with other people's problems, then you may be disappointed with the realities of the IT/programming world. You will spend most of your time bailing people out of their bad decisions, counseling them on a proper approach and being ignored, and working against unreasonable and unrealistic deadlines. Sound familiar?

Don't forget the office politics. If you go the contract route you may be able to (somewhat) stay above the fray, but you'll never get away from it completely.

Probably the biggest thing I'd carry forward from my law training to coding is the need to constantly teach myself. My law degree didn't teach me how to be a lawyer, it taught me how to think and communicate like a lawyer. I expect about the same from any coding bootcamp - it won't make me an expert coder, but I'll know the languages and build from there.


My issue with my law practice is that ALL I deal with is fixing other people's problems. I create nothing lasting.

Coding is obviously all about solving problems and overcoming failure (from what I've seen, coding is really about iterating until your code actually works, with tons of failure in between). So, at least with coding, I have something tangible that I've created at the end. I can't help being a problem solver, it's what I do and I do it really well. People coming to me with a crisis is nothing new. I just want to create something as part of my job, I don't actually mind the problem solving.

Will keep the other stuff in mind as I go forward. Thanks again!

just brew it! wrote:

SecretSquirrel wrote:

If you are trying to get away from dealing with other people's problems, then you may be disappointed with the realities of the IT/programming world. You will spend most of your time bailing people out of their bad decisions, counseling them on a proper approach and being ignored, and working against unreasonable and unrealistic deadlines. Sound familiar?

Don't forget the office politics. If you go the contract route you may be able to (somewhat) stay above the fray, but you'll never get away from it completely.

Office politics aren't really an issue either. I'd like to work on a team working towards a common goal. As an attorney, I normally work alone, even though I am part of a larger "team."

southrncomfortjm wrote:

just brew it! wrote:

Don't forget the office politics. If you go the contract route you may be able to (somewhat) stay above the fray, but you'll never get away from it completely.

Office politics aren't really an issue either. I'd like to work on a team working towards a common goal. As an attorney, I normally work alone, even though I am part of a larger "team."

Office politics means there will be disagreement over what that common goal is, and/or how to get there.

just brew it! wrote:

SecretSquirrel wrote:

If you are trying to get away from dealing with other people's problems, then you may be disappointed with the realities of the IT/programming world. You will spend most of your time bailing people out of their bad decisions, counseling them on a proper approach and being ignored, and working against unreasonable and unrealistic deadlines. Sound familiar?

Don't forget the office politics. If you go the contract route you may be able to (somewhat) stay above the fray, but you'll never get away from it completely.

To really be successful as a contractor/consultant, my personal opinion is that you must be even more tuned into office politics. It is possible to have a long and generally successful career being completely mediocre and generally unnoticed within a reasonably sized company, as a regular employee. You have to have a bit of luck, of course. However, contractors are first to feel the winds of change when they start blowing. You always have to be on the lookout for your next job and always have to stay on top of the politics behind your current job.

--SS

Just get some super popular cool coding courses on Udemy.com (you can have them for $25 on sale which is quite often). And explore, experiment and do crazy original stuff. No one can stop you from being the best. It will be an insane uphill battle the first few months but then you will find yourself breezing through complicated things so swiftly you will be surprised.

Tip: Keep brain friendly snacks handy while coding.

Let the rewiring of your neuronal circuits commence!

just brew it! wrote:

southrncomfortjm wrote:

just brew it! wrote:

Don't forget the office politics. If you go the contract route you may be able to (somewhat) stay above the fray, but you'll never get away from it completely.

Office politics aren't really an issue either. I'd like to work on a team working towards a common goal. As an attorney, I normally work alone, even though I am part of a larger "team."

Office politics means there will be disagreement over what that common goal is, and/or how to get there.

Well, you can't live a conflict free existence. Contract/freelance is great and all, but that seems like it would be too inconsistent and a bit lonely.

southrncomfortjm wrote:

Probably the biggest thing I'd carry forward from my law training to coding is the need to constantly teach myself. My law degree didn't teach me how to be a lawyer, it taught me how to think and communicate like a lawyer. I expect about the same from any coding bootcamp - it won't make me an expert coder, but I'll know the languages and build from there.


My issue with my law practice is that ALL I deal with is fixing other people's problems. I create nothing lasting.

Coding is obviously all about solving problems and overcoming failure (from what I've seen, coding is really about iterating until your code actually works, with tons of failure in between). So, at least with coding, I have something tangible that I've created at the end. I can't help being a problem solver, it's what I do and I do it really well. People coming to me with a crisis is nothing new. I just want to create something as part of my job, I don't actually mind the problem solving.

Will keep the other stuff in mind as I go forward. Thanks again!

Want a job? Unfortunately I don't do webby stuff, but in all seriousness, you've got the underpinnings and outlook to go quite far. With a bit of luck, of course. Everybody needs a bit of luck.

One thing that you probably won't get taught in a bootcamp, or even in many university programs: planning and design. Think through what your are trying to do and how you want to approach it before you start. Consider the implications of your decisions as far forward as you can see. That will cut down on unneeded iterations. Also, when something doesn't work, take time to understand why. So many programmers simply iterate, randomly changing things until they get something they think works. They have no real idea what the underlying problem was and what the impact and unintended consequences of their changes is.

--SS

I'm kind of in the same boat as southrncomfortjm, but a little farther along. Since I already work for an all-Microsoft shop (outside of the project I'm currently working on, which uses 4Js Genero 4GL), I signed up for a year's sub to LearnVisualStudio.net. I figure that I can eventually transition from primarily a QA/SQL/level 3 support role (which is where I've been since 2011) to a more permanent development, either in the same division, in another division, or at another company. I've got a little bit of a leg up, because I'm already padding my resume with actual experience, though. The company is around 3500 employees, and there's always a ton of listings for front-end development stuff in other divisions, and I have nice benefits so I'd like to stay.

Igor_Kavinski wrote:

Let the rewiring of your neuronal circuits commence!

Holy crap, this is so true. The first month or six weeks that I was trying to figure out the Genero language and figure out how everything went together, I felt like I was physically paralyzed in thought. I'd just sit there with my eyes closed and my head would hurt. And then suddenly it started coming to me. I'm pretty decent with it now, and I'm getting better at the JavaScript that controls the front end. I've got a long way to go, I'm sure, but it's getting easier. By next fall when I've got a year and more tools under my belt, we'll see what I can do.

So good luck to you, man.

SecretSquirrel wrote:

southrncomfortjm wrote:

Probably the biggest thing I'd carry forward from my law training to coding is the need to constantly teach myself. My law degree didn't teach me how to be a lawyer, it taught me how to think and communicate like a lawyer. I expect about the same from any coding bootcamp - it won't make me an expert coder, but I'll know the languages and build from there.


My issue with my law practice is that ALL I deal with is fixing other people's problems. I create nothing lasting.

Coding is obviously all about solving problems and overcoming failure (from what I've seen, coding is really about iterating until your code actually works, with tons of failure in between). So, at least with coding, I have something tangible that I've created at the end. I can't help being a problem solver, it's what I do and I do it really well. People coming to me with a crisis is nothing new. I just want to create something as part of my job, I don't actually mind the problem solving.

Will keep the other stuff in mind as I go forward. Thanks again!

Want a job? Unfortunately I don't do webby stuff, but in all seriousness, you've got the underpinnings and outlook to go quite far. With a bit of luck, of course. Everybody needs a bit of luck.

One thing that you probably won't get taught in a bootcamp, or even in many university programs: planning and design. Think through what your are trying to do and how you want to approach it before you start. Consider the implications of your decisions as far forward as you can see. That will cut down on unneeded iterations. Also, when something doesn't work, take time to understand why. So many programmers simply iterate, randomly changing things until they get something they think works. They have no real idea what the underlying problem was and what the impact and unintended consequences of their changes is.

--SS

Yeah, I totally get that. I was looking at sample portfolios from graduates of these bootcamps and there was a huge difference between the best and worst. The best clearly had an eye on design. Once I start building real projects I'll spend some time and read a book on web design to get at least some basics down. Knowledge of UI/UX will be important.

derFunkenstein wrote:

So good luck to you, man.

Thanks bud. Good luck to you too!

derFunkenstein wrote:

Igor_Kavinski wrote:

Let the rewiring of your neuronal circuits commence!

Holy crap, this is so true. The first month or six weeks that I was trying to figure out the Genero language and figure out how everything went together, I felt like I was physically paralyzed in thought. I'd just sit there with my eyes closed and my head would hurt. And then suddenly it started coming to me. I'm pretty decent with it now, and I'm getting better at the JavaScript that controls the front end. I've got a long way to go, I'm sure, but it's getting easier. By next fall when I've got a year and more tools under my belt, we'll see what I can do.

C++11 and Boost feel pretty alien to someone who hasn't touched C++ in close to a decade.

Posting because I'm considering something similar, except taking the university route using military benefits, and want to see what y'all come up with .

Here's something that's a little bit out there, but may be up your alley..

Software contract houses are popping up like mad.. especially outsourced ones. It's hard to compete with these. What does work is learn the technology to understand what you can do with it, and then use the contract houses to build stuff for you. You can get your hands dirty with the code, tweaking and working with it, but if you've got ideas you want to try, these guys can churn things out fast, with your control and direction.

If you are a self-learner, then you can follow along, tweak modify and build as needed, and you'll end up with an actual product instead of a gamble with a degree and no real-world experience.

https://www.pluralsight.com/

I highly recommend Pluralsight.
Some great stuff there. A very wide variety of topics as well.

I was a back end programmer before I moved management track and do datacenter focused stuff now so take my advice with a grain of salt please.

That said, one thing that made up for inexperience was consistent commits to major open source projects. I had one hire that was technically a recent graduate with a BS. However he'd been submitting patches to the linux kernel for years as a HS and college student, and a great many of them were pulled. That's in many ways the equivalent of a portfolio for a designer or artist, it shows the underlying talent and information on basic skill. It doesn't show how well the person will handle the actual structure of the job and the personality fit within the org, but that's my job to find out, not his to prove per se. The candidate had already proved he had the skills.

It also gives you a pretty good idea of how to work within the coding standards of different organizations and various other useful lessons.

Ikepuska wrote:

I was a back end programmer before I moved management track and do datacenter focused stuff now so take my advice with a grain of salt please.

That said, one thing that made up for inexperience was consistent commits to major open source projects. I had one hire that was technically a recent graduate with a BS. However he'd been submitting patches to the linux kernel for years as a HS and college student, and a great many of them were pulled. That's in many ways the equivalent of a portfolio for a designer or artist, it shows the underlying talent and information on basic skill. It doesn't show how well the person will handle the actual structure of the job and the personality fit within the org, but that's my job to find out, not his to prove per se. The candidate had already proved he had the skills.

It also gives you a pretty good idea of how to work within the coding standards of different organizations and various other useful lessons.

Yes, this is exactly my goal. Have a portfolio of personal projects as well as a record of open source contributions.

Just finished up (re)-learning HTML and CSS last night with Code Academy. Going to work through the projects they have to solidify those skills, then move on to javascript. After that, its angularJS, jQuery, and then Ruby on Rails. So yeah, hopefully in a few short months I can have the tools I need to build a few sweet looking sites and make a contribution on github.

southrncomfortjm wrote:

My issue with my law practice is that ALL I deal with is fixing other people's problems. I create nothing lasting.

Couple things...first, you are probably still going to be fixing other people's problems as a coder, ESPECIALLY if you end up being good at it.

Second, why not just change up your specialty? Granted, I'm not sure exactly what you do right now, but I do know that some lawyers do work on real deliverables. Perhaps a focus on IP or housing law would allow you to work on legal documents--actual deliverables--and less on "fixing other people's problems".

I have an engineering degree, and my school brought in engineers-turned-lawyers to speak on the overlap between engineering and law. They pointed out that we have to sign legal documents when we accept jobs. They also pointed out that with a BS in engineering might be better suited at untangling patent cases, offering another sensible path to make use of both engineering and law schools.

superjawes wrote:

southrncomfortjm wrote:

My issue with my law practice is that ALL I deal with is fixing other people's problems. I create nothing lasting.

Couple things...first, you are probably still going to be fixing other people's problems as a coder, ESPECIALLY if you end up being good at it.

Second, why not just change up your specialty? Granted, I'm not sure exactly what you do right now, but I do know that some lawyers do work on real deliverables. Perhaps a focus on IP or housing law would allow you to work on legal documents--actual deliverables--and less on "fixing other people's problems".

I have an engineering degree, and my school brought in engineers-turned-lawyers to speak on the overlap between engineering and law. They pointed out that we have to sign legal documents when we accept jobs. They also pointed out that with a BS in engineering might be better suited at untangling patent cases, offering another sensible path to make use of both engineering and law schools.

The issue isn't fixing other people's issues, its just that its all I do, and it is just no longer satisfying. The emotional weight of it just isn't worth the salary. I *like* problem solving, I'm just a bit burned out on this particular kind of problem solving. The idea of creating code, creating a product (even if stressful) sounds way better. Luckily, I don't have to make any decisions right now, I can just dutifully learn on my own and then make the jump if I feel it is something I really want to do.

southrncomfortjm wrote:

Just finished up (re)-learning HTML and CSS last night with Code Academy. Going to work through the projects they have to solidify those skills, then move on to javascript. After that, its angularJS, jQuery, and then Ruby on Rails. So yeah, hopefully in a few short months I can have the tools I need to build a few sweet looking sites and make a contribution on github.

Make sure to checkout Backbone.js also. Angular is backed by Google and used by Demandware which pretty much guarantees it's going to be around for a while, but Backbone is pretty widely used also, and sticks a little closer to the traditional MVC model. That could come in handy if you end up working on an MVC-related project at some point.

southrncomfortjm wrote:

So, I may be looking for a career change, and I'd be looking to become a web developer or software developer. I don't have a computer science degree, so I'd have to start from scratch.

Frankly, 90% of software developers out there are complete garbage - with or without degrees. They simply don't have the mentality or aptitude for it. And if you're crap at your job you'll never be happy doing it. If you want a career change then it's presumably because you want to do something you're happy doing.

Firstly, you need a good grounding in mathematics. At least first year level advanced maths at a university. This will equip you with the raw tools to think about solving problems - linear algebra, geometry, calculus, statistics. In tandem, pick up a simple programming language like Python which will allow you to explore sequences of operation, program flow, data structures - to ultimately create whole computer programs. Next, with these tools go mad deep into algorithms particularly operations on data structures and something else like computational geometry (my pet favourite hobby). Study some different computer languages to learn about the different ways to express code. Pick up at least one assembly language so you can (unlike 99% of programmers) Understand How a Computer Actually Works. At this point you will be equipped with the most fundamental tools to adapt and learn and master any computer language or system.

I was watching some Jim Khaleel documentary on algorithms on Netflix the other day. If that makes you madly joyous, then you may have the right stuff.

I don't have any experience with bootcamps and don't know anyone who's hired/been hired based on that. Maybe it's a regional thing? However, my experience being unemployed in the late 2000s is that you won't get past the corporate HR robots without a four year tech degree and most "entry level" positions actually expect previous work experience on top of that. It's stupid, but I didn't make the rules...

There's likely some regional variation here too. California-based tech companies basically don't hire anybody that didn't go to Stanford because they're too cool for those other peasants (and then cry to anyone who'll listen about an imaginary talent shortage). Here in Minnesota, companies actually do fill open positions and so the deck isn't stacked heavily against the job seeker. Speaking as someone who traveled 2000 miles to take a job, as an engineer you do need to be prepared to go where the work is.

NovusBogus wrote:

I don't have any experience with bootcamps and don't know anyone who's hired/been hired based on that. Maybe it's a regional thing? However, my experience being unemployed in the late 2000s is that you won't get past the corporate HR robots without a four year tech degree and most "entry level" positions actually expect previous work experience on top of that. It's stupid, but I didn't make the rules...

There's likely some regional variation here too. California-based tech companies basically don't hire anybody that didn't go to Stanford because they're too cool for those other peasants (and then cry to anyone who'll listen about an imaginary talent shortage). Here in Minnesota, companies actually do fill open positions and so the deck isn't stacked heavily against the job seeker. Speaking as someone who traveled 2000 miles to take a job, as an engineer you do need to be prepared to go where the work is.

It's all about who you know. If you don't have a contact, then you are stuck going through the HR path which can be like a bad trip through wonderland. As much as people want to say that tech is a meritocracy where it's what you know and how you do that is important, those people are full of it. You get the good job because you happen to know someone.

--SS

With regards to the Javascript frameworks, some reading to understand what you will be getting into...

http://www.breck-mckye.com/blog/2014/12/the-state-of-javascript-in-2015/
https://www.allenpike.com/2015/javascript-framework-fatigue/

There was one more that was funnier, but I can't find it right now...