Personal computing discussed

Moderators: SecretSquirrel, just brew it!

 
Glorious
Gold subscriber
Grand Admiral Gerbil
Topic Author
Posts: 10907
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Tue May 10, 2016 6:51 am

https://reaktor.com/blog/node-js-satell ... rogrammer/

Why would anyone, after reading that paen to idiocy, ever hire these clowns for anything ever again?

I have to apologize to people who work primarily with javascript, because this sort of thing is why I hate it so much.
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 51206
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Tue May 10, 2016 6:59 am

Wait... what? Somebody's been smoking something. WTF?!??

Edit: Skimmed their web site. Some choice tidbits:

"Think lean, work agile, renew the methods of working in the field of technology."

"growth hacking"

And on their careers page, an opening for a "Digital Project Maestro".

:lol:
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
CampinCarl
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1363
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:53 pm

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Tue May 10, 2016 7:16 am

the article wrote:
With JavaScript, developers can also update the software in the satellite, allowing them to extend the functionality after the launch.


Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot that no sat has ever been updated from ground control before. Never. Spirit still runs the same source as when it launched. Same with Opportunity.

:roll:

I'll await the article in about January of 2017 where someone inserted a really bland overflow attack into their uplink to the sat and destroyed the thing, because JavaScript.
Gigabyte AB350M Gaming-3 | R7 1700X | 2x8 GB Corsair Vengeance DDR4-3200 (@DDR4-2933)| Samsung 960 Evo 1TB SSD | Gigabyte GTX1080 | Win 10 Pro x86-64
 
SecretSquirrel
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2362
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: North DFW suburb...
Contact:

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Tue May 10, 2016 7:30 am

 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 51206
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Tue May 10, 2016 7:49 am

CampinCarl wrote:
Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot that no sat has ever been updated from ground control before. Never. Spirit still runs the same source as when it launched. Same with Opportunity.

Just to nit pick here...

1. SecretSquirrel's link indicates that, yes, we do update satellites in orbit. Sometimes with disastrous results.

2. Technically, Spirit and Opportunity aren't satellites. They're ROVs.

3. We've been remotely patching ROV code at least as far back as the Mars Pathfinder mission, in 1997: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/ ... count.html (I have no idea if this was ever done with Spirit or Opportunity though)
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Redocbew
Gold subscriber
Gerbil Jedi
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:44 am

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Tue May 10, 2016 11:14 am

There's an O'Reilly book called "Javascript: The Good Parts". It's not even 200 pages, and I'm pretty sure these people are not in it.
Do not meddle in the affairs of archers, for they are subtle and you won't hear them coming.
 
Glorious
Gold subscriber
Grand Admiral Gerbil
Topic Author
Posts: 10907
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Tue May 10, 2016 11:15 am

CampingCarl wrote:
Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot that no sat has ever been updated from ground control before. Never. Spirit still runs the same source as when it launched. Same with Opportunity.


We've actually launched things into space without the full program necessary to complete their mission pre-loaded. That is, sometimes storage space is re-used so that if we didn't "update" them they'd fail because they were never fully told what to do in the first place.

---

The biggest problem I have with the whole thing is that idea that complexity and difficulty in programming stems solely from the lack of a programming mono-culture. Things are hard, you see, because people used things other than javascript, which evidently is the first programming language to reach ubiquity or something.

I've encountered that attitude in differing forms from a lot of people who do javascript, and while they are usually wonderfully earnest and positive individuals, you start to think that maybe they were all raised in a cave by a cult or something.
 
Redocbew
Gold subscriber
Gerbil Jedi
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:44 am

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Tue May 10, 2016 11:23 am

In a perfect world, everyone who has a job writing code would be able to understand what thier code is doing inside the machine. Clearly, anyone thinking of Javascript as some kind of panacea for the pitfalls of developing software isn't there yet. There are plenty of good reasons why Javascript should be completely redesigned from the ground up, but it's pretty well entrenched these days, so that's easier said than done.
Do not meddle in the affairs of archers, for they are subtle and you won't hear them coming.
 
morphine
Gold subscriber
TR Staff
Posts: 11461
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2002 8:51 pm
Location: Portugal (that's next to Spain)

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:33 pm

As someone whose day job includes wrangling Javascript, among other things, let me adapt Mr. Churchill's words.

"Javascript may be the worst programming language, except all alternatives have no widespread support."

To JS's defense, it has a lot of good bits, and the existence of JQuery and other frameworks dulled the pain quite a lot. Heck, in my mind, "JavaScript" really means "ECMAScript + JQuery/Angular/whatever".
There is a fixed amount of intelligence on the planet, and the population keeps growing :(
 
morphine
Gold subscriber
TR Staff
Posts: 11461
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2002 8:51 pm
Location: Portugal (that's next to Spain)

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:34 pm

I posted the previous comment without reading the OP's linked article.

Hoooleeee schêêêt. I want some of what they're smoking.
There is a fixed amount of intelligence on the planet, and the population keeps growing :(
 
Meadows
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3373
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:10 pm
Location: Location: Location

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:47 pm

"You have probably heard of JavaScript, a programming language used to build this very web page [...]"

Yes, and after having to scroll down no less than 1200 pixels to read "this very web page", all I can say is they can go suck a lemon.
 
DreadCthulhu
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1008
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2003 12:43 am
Location: R'lyeh

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:15 am

Redocbew wrote:
There's an O'Reilly book called "Javascript: The Good Parts". It's not even 200 pages, and I'm pretty sure these people are not in it.


I think this picture sums things up. Image
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. The competent use violence well before last resorts are necessary.

If violence isn't solving your problems, then you aren't using enough of it.
 
derFunkenstein
Gerbil God
Posts: 24372
Joined: Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:13 pm
Location: Comin' to you directly from the Mothership

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:35 pm

morphine wrote:
To JS's defense, it has a lot of good bits, and the existence of JQuery and other frameworks dulled the pain quite a lot. Heck, in my mind, "JavaScript" really means "ECMAScript + JQuery/Angular/whatever".

I've reeeeally dug into jQuery and Angular 1.5.x a lot over the last 6-8 weeks, and it's super cool. Prior to last fall, I had no idea just how much JavaScript had been extended by frameworks like that.
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
 
Redocbew
Gold subscriber
Gerbil Jedi
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:44 am

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:10 pm

Backbone is pretty nice also. I tend to prefer that over Angular if I have the choice. I thought the syntax of jQuery was pretty brutal at first, but once you start thinking more functionally it makes more sense.
Do not meddle in the affairs of archers, for they are subtle and you won't hear them coming.
 
morphine
Gold subscriber
TR Staff
Posts: 11461
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2002 8:51 pm
Location: Portugal (that's next to Spain)

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:42 pm

While we're on this tangent, I'd like to add:

The problem isn't strictly the language itself. It's the backwards compatibility with a lot of old browser versions' JS implementations and a few language quirks that stem from that backwards compatibility that do the vast majority of the damage.
There is a fixed amount of intelligence on the planet, and the population keeps growing :(
 
hanklai
Gerbil
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2016 5:20 am

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:49 am

You should try Eloquent JavaScript: A Modern Introduction to programming. It will teach you the code in the simplest of ways. Start with the basics, learn to use variables then move onto control structures, functions, and data structures. After completing these topics you will learn about higher-order functions, closures and object-oriented programming.
 
whm1974
Gerbil Elder
Posts: 5761
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:29 am

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:09 am

morphine wrote:
As someone whose day job includes wrangling Javascript, among other things, let me adapt Mr. Churchill's words.

"Javascript may be the worst programming language, except all alternatives have no widespread support."

To JS's defense, it has a lot of good bits, and the existence of JQuery and other frameworks dulled the pain quite a lot. Heck, in my mind, "JavaScript" really means "ECMAScript + JQuery/Angular/whatever".

I thought C and C++ is far more widely supported.
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 51206
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:17 am

whm1974 wrote:
morphine wrote:
As someone whose day job includes wrangling Javascript, among other things, let me adapt Mr. Churchill's words.

"Javascript may be the worst programming language, except all alternatives have no widespread support."

To JS's defense, it has a lot of good bits, and the existence of JQuery and other frameworks dulled the pain quite a lot. Heck, in my mind, "JavaScript" really means "ECMAScript + JQuery/Angular/whatever".

I thought C and C++ is far more widely supported.

I think morphine's paraphrased quote was referring to web browser support.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Bauxite
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 756
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:10 pm
Location: electrolytic redox smelting plant

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:41 am

Javascript's main use case is malware, hence noscript. If you combine the entire ecosystem as a whole with all the analytics and associated crap: nothing more than malware for espionage purposes against all internet users.
TR 1950x 16c32t - 2018: Pretty much done with intel on the desktop.
E5 2696v4 22c44t 2.2~3.7Ghz - The last great gleam of the pre-nerf HEDT era.
E5 1680v2 8c16t 4.5Ghz - "Yes Virginia, there were unlocked xeons" /weep for them.
 
Stranger
Graphmaster Gerbil
Posts: 1433
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2003 8:51 pm
Location: Socialist republic of Ohio
Contact:

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:29 pm

I'd argue that javascript is a thousand times better than python which people love to use all over the engineering and data science worlds.  I might be a bit bitter from having to rewrite all kinds of garbage python.  If you include modern variants of js such as typescript it's a million times better.  Javascript has grown up.

ex:
https://github.com/Microsoft/TypeScriptSamples/blob/master/raytracer/raytracer.ts
 
I.S.T.
Gerbil XP
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:18 am

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:07 pm

hanklai wrote:
You should try Eloquent JavaScript: A Modern Introduction to programming. It will teach you the code in the simplest of ways. Start with the basics, learn to use variables then move onto control structures, functions, and data structures. After completing these topics you will learn about higher-order functions, closures and object-oriented programming.


Quoting without the text stuff for higher readability. The dark text especially wreaks havoc on the dark color scheme.
 
curtisb
Gerbil XP
Posts: 411
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:27 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:24 pm

CampinCarl wrote:
I'll await the article in about January of 2017 where someone inserted a really bland overflow attack into their uplink to the sat and destroyed the thing, because JavaScript.


The countdown is on...
ASUS MAXIMUS VIII HERO | Intel Core i7-6700 | Asus STRIX GTX 970 4GB | 4 x Corsair LPX 8GB | 2 x Crucial MX200 500GB | 2 x Hitachi Deskstar 4TB | Phanteks Eclipse | Seasonic X-850 | Dell UP2516D
 
Glorious
Gold subscriber
Grand Admiral Gerbil
Topic Author
Posts: 10907
Joined: Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:06 am

curtisb wrote:
The countdown is on...


Assuming they even launched this absurd gimmick, those nano-satellite don't tend to stay functional for very long regardless of operating code. Something randomly fails, killing the electronics or the attitude control or any number of things and it's dead or effectively so. It gets hit by a wallop of radiation and dies. etc...

And, depending on the launch profile, it likely won't have a very long life anyway: without enough altitude there's too much drag. Most of these projects have lifetimes in the months, with a year or two being the best they can hope for.

And that's assuming their rocket doesn't explode or abort the secondary payload to save the primary.
 
Waco
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Los Alamos, NM

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:24 am

just brew it! wrote:
I think morphine's paraphrased quote was referring to web browser support.

Sure, but on a satellite? I'd much rather have something that can conceivably be run through a hardened compiler...
Z170A Gaming Pro Carbon | 6700K @ 4.4 | 16 GB | GTX Titan Xm | Seasonic Gold 850 | XSPC RX360 | Heatkiller R3 | D5 + RP-452X2 | Cosmos II | Samsung 4K 40" | 2048 + 240 + LSI 9207-8i (128x8) SSDs
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 51206
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:44 am

Waco wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
I think morphine's paraphrased quote was referring to web browser support.

Sure, but on a satellite? I'd much rather have something that can conceivably be run through a hardened compiler...

No argument there, when it comes to mission critical stuff.

If the overall system architecture or OS provides robust partitioning/protection facilities, in theory "anything goes" for the non-critical systems though.

To draw an analogy with civilian avionics systems, the FAA classifies software into 5 safety levels, designated A-E. Level A is essentially "If this software malfunctions, there's a non-trivial chance that the aircraft goes down and everyone dies". Level E is "some of the passengers might get a little annoyed if this doesn't work". You can mix software of different levels on the same system, but if you do your RTOS must be able to guarantee that software at lower safety levels can't affect software at higher levels. Typically stuff is simply segregated onto different systems with different safety certification levels.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
notfred
Maximum Gerbil
Posts: 4478
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:10 am
Location: Ottawa, Canada

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:45 am

More generally (e.g. automotive rather than aircraft), with the push to virtualisation and more powerful processors I'm seeing people using an RTOS hypervisor with several guests. Some of those guests are safety critical and running an RTOS, others are things like entertainment systems potentially running Android or other non-safety certified OS.

Disclosure: I work at a company doing this.
 
steelcity_ballin
Gold subscriber
Gerbilus Supremus
Posts: 12027
Joined: Mon May 26, 2003 5:55 am
Location: Pittsburgh PA

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:43 am

If you're not using TypeScript - you should be. Type safety is important to any application beyond a trivial size. All the hate JS gets is usually by folks who haven't written anything on the web since the late 90s and yes there are terrible developers that find JS a great gateway language to programming in general. The problem with JS isn't the language itself, it's the misuse of it for things it was never intended for, and the constant crazy level of new tooling for new ecosystems that seem to come out every other week. Then you mix that **** with entry-level (read: inexperienced) devs who mix-and-match libraries for things they don't need (you'd be surprised how much of a crutch jQuery is for people who just don't bother to learn the DOM) and the result is bitter devs who shun new tech and what not because of the abuse of others.

There are a lot of promising frameworks that do a lot of good things in terms of modularizing things, tracking dependencies, and managing load order - I personally don't use one. I develop in C# for MVC, and I use the frameworks JS and CSS bundling to minify and organize my js files in my application. Until I see the need for the a JS framework, I won't use one. My friends are using Aurelia and I hear good things - I believe it's from the folks who worked on durandal. /shrug
Corsair 600T | ASUS P8P67 PRO | Intel 2500k @ 4.4Ghz | Asus 1080GTX | G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB | Corsair HX650 650W | Asus ROG Swift Gsync 27"
 
Duct Tape Dude
Gold subscriber
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 672
Joined: Thu May 02, 2013 12:37 pm

Re: This is why when people say javascript, I groan

Fri Jan 06, 2017 10:50 am

steelcity_ballin wrote:
If you're not using TypeScript - you should be. Type safety is important to any application beyond a trivial size. All the hate JS gets is usually by folks who haven't written anything on the web since the late 90s and yes there are terrible developers that find JS a great gateway language to programming in general. The problem with JS isn't the language itself, it's the misuse of it for things it was never intended for, and the constant crazy level of new tooling for new ecosystems that seem to come out every other week. Then you mix that **** with entry-level (read: inexperienced) devs who mix-and-match libraries for things they don't need (you'd be surprised how much of a crutch jQuery is for people who just don't bother to learn the DOM) and the result is bitter devs who shun new tech and what not because of the abuse of others.

There are a lot of promising frameworks that do a lot of good things in terms of modularizing things, tracking dependencies, and managing load order - I personally don't use one. I develop in C# for MVC, and I use the frameworks JS and CSS bundling to minify and organize my js files in my application. Until I see the need for the a JS framework, I won't use one. My friends are using Aurelia and I hear good things - I believe it's from the folks who worked on durandal. /shrug

+1
We're using Typescript for core components of our business-critical project. The JS community has its pitfalls but there's something to be said about the asynchronous model of Javascript and Node.js, and the code quality that type-checking systems like Typescript or Flow buy you.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests