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whm1974
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:25 pm

I'm just wondering but what is the youngest child that you guys know of that was able to learn and understand C well enough to at least be able to write short and simple programs?
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:28 pm

whm1974 wrote:
I'm just wondering but what is the youngest child that you guys know of that was able to learn and understand C well enough to at least be able to write short and simple programs?


First, I don't think that's something that should be measured. You can literally write a program that does barely anything, compile it, and execute it. Look at your hello world example. Second, people progress at different paces. I'm just not sure what good knowing the age of a child that can write code does for you. It just shouldn't matter to you.
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whm1974
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:31 pm

DancinJack wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
I'm just wondering but what is the youngest child that you guys know of that was able to learn and understand C well enough to at least be able to write short and simple programs?


First, I don't think that's something that should be measured. You can literally write a program that does barely anything, compile it, and execute it. Look at your hello world example. Second, people progress at different paces. I'm just not sure what good knowing the age of a child that can write code does for you. It just shouldn't matter to you.

I'm just thinking that if child young as 8 can learn to do simple C programming then I should be able to do so as well, right?
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:49 pm

whm1974 wrote:
I'm just thinking that if child young as 8 can learn to do simple C programming then I should be able to do so as well, right?

Well, the 8YO most likely has many fewer bad habits that need to be unlearned before real learning commences.
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:19 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
I'm just thinking that if child young as 8 can learn to do simple C programming then I should be able to do so as well, right?

Well, the 8YO most likely has many fewer bad habits that need to be unlearned before real learning commences.

Well that and young children tend to learn stuff much faster and easier then adults in their 40's do. Makes me wish I knew the stuff I know now back when I was a kid. Maybe I would have applied myself harder and perhaps I wouldn't have ended up on disability or at least be working part time doing something useful. :o
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:10 pm

There are child prodigies who are doing stuff at (or beyond) typical adult skill level before they even hit their teens. So "What's the youngest person who learned C?" is a pretty meaningless question. If I had to guess, there are probably a few 8-10 year olds who know it, though I don't know any personally.

There are also literally billions of people (an overwhelming majority of the world population) who don't know C (or any other programming language), and never will. Even if you look only at people in engineering/scientific fields, most of them don't know how to write a computer program (even if they learned in school, they've forgotten by now).

Life is an ongoing learning experience. Learning is an integral part of being human. Sure, it would've probably been easier if you'd started younger, but that's no reason to write it off. Heck, I learned how to program FPGAs (in VHDL, doing some non-trivial real-time digital video processing) when I was already pushing 50, having had zero prior experience with FPGAs/CPLDs/etc. If I can do that, you can learn C; the fact that you're using an obscure Linux distro as your desktop OS shows that you're reasonably technically inclined/proficient. Just stay focused.
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:28 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Ahh, OK... you're a few years older than I thought.


With the number of times you've seen that username over the years, how? 8)
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:36 pm

MOSFET wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Ahh, OK... you're a few years older than I thought.

With the number of times you've seen that username over the years, how? 8)

He's only been here since late 2014. And hey, in any case, my memory is starting to go... getting old sucks. :lol:

Edit: In hindsight, I should've been able to guess from his forum handle.
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whm1974
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:47 pm

just brew it! wrote:
MOSFET wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Ahh, OK... you're a few years older than I thought.

With the number of times you've seen that username over the years, how? 8)

He's only been here since late 2014. And hey, in any case, my memory is starting to go... getting old sucks. :lol:

Edit: In hindsight, I should've been able to guess from his forum handle.

Yes it does suck getting old, and I'm only 43!!! :oops: For example, I went over to the office this morning to get my meds and by the I entered the building, I was cold to the bone. I wearing a light sweat jacket and shorts, ten years ago I could have gone and back in my birthday suit and not feel a thing.
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:50 pm

@whm1974 -

Time for your first homework assignment! Write a C program which mimics the basic (don't bother parsing the command line) behavior of the "wc" CLI tool. Read the contents of stdin until EOF, count the lines, words, and characters therein, and print the three counts to stdout. No cheating by looking at the actual wc source code, but aside from that it's "open season" (feel free to use your eBook and Google, and you can ask for hints here).

No time limit, but I'll poke at you periodically if you're not making progress. :wink:

@everyone-else -

If he asks for hints, don't give him answers, but point him at appropriate runtime library functions, or tutorials illustrating relevant code constructs.
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just brew it!
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:51 pm

whm1974 wrote:
I wearing a light sweat jacket and shorts, ten years ago I could have gone and back in my birthday suit and not feel a thing.

I've never seen you IRL, and that's still a scary, scary, mental image. :lol:
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whm1974
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:59 pm

just brew it! wrote:
@whm1974 -

Time for your first homework assignment! Write a C program which mimics the basic (don't bother parsing the command line) behavior of the "wc" CLI tool. Read the contents of stdin until EOF, count the lines, words, and characters therein, and print the three counts to stdout. No cheating by looking at the actual wc source code, but aside from that it's "open season" (feel free to use your eBook and Google, and you can ask for hints here).

No time limit, but I'll poke at you periodically if you're not making progress. :wink:

@everyone-else -

If he asks for hints, don't give him answers, but point him at appropriate runtime library functions, or tutorials illustrating relevant code constructs.

Thanks I'll get on it sooner or later, probably sooner since I'm itching to actually write my own program(s) to check if I'm understand what I'm reading. right now I'm having trouble remember the basic stuff that is supposed to be in every proper C source file.
 
whm1974
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:48 pm

OK I started and this what I got so far.
/* This verison of the BASH command wc is written by whm1974 for */
/* user just brew it! over at the www.techreport.com forums      */
/* This an assignment for whm1974. File Name is Mywc.c Not meant */
/* for replacing the command wc. DO NOT USE. It is HOMEWORK      */
/* If you find a program named Mywc, DO NOT RUN. IT MAY NOT BE   */
/* THIS PROGRAM!                                                 */

#include<stdio.h>

/* Beginning of Program */

int main()
{
}

/* End of Program */

This is to show that I am getting started.
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:07 pm

If you want to take it slow and easy, start by just counting characters. Then do lines, and finally words.
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whm1974
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:22 pm

just brew it! wrote:
If you want to take it slow and easy, start by just counting characters. Then do lines, and finally words.

What do you think of my warning? I created the label so I don't forget what this is for and chances are I'm going to over document this to help me understand what I doing.
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:31 pm

whm1974 wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
If you want to take it slow and easy, start by just counting characters. Then do lines, and finally words.

What do you think of my warning? I created the label so I don't forget what this is for and chances are I'm going to over document this to help me understand what I doing.

I think the warning is unnecessary. Just put in enough comments to help you remember what you did and why.
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whm1974
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:38 pm

just brew it! wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
If you want to take it slow and easy, start by just counting characters. Then do lines, and finally words.

What do you think of my warning? I created the label so I don't forget what this is for and chances are I'm going to over document this to help me understand what I doing.

I think the warning is unnecessary. Just put in enough comments to help you remember what you did and why.

Well that was me just being funny. :P
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:24 pm

OK I just started over reading the documentation so I can do the homework JBI just gave me and good grief, I missed entire sections and didn't type in example codes!!! :oops: So am I going to end up reading the same document a thousand times because I'm reading too fast? :o No wonder I'm having trouble understanding and remembering the material. :evil:

I think I'm going to quit for tonight. Tomorrow I'm going to a free Thanksgiving dinner with my dad, so I don't know if I will be studying this at all Sunday.
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:33 pm

It's not uncommon for me to read the same documentation multiple times when looking up function parameters, return types, and whatnot. The newer I am to the language, the more frequently I look stuff up, but even with a language I know very well there's still things I don't remember. Looking stuff up is something you should expect to do every now and then.
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whm1974
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:45 pm

Redocbew wrote:
It's not uncommon for me to read the same documentation multiple times when looking up function parameters, return types, and whatnot. The newer I am to the language, the more frequently I look stuff up, but even with a language I know very well there's still things I don't remember. Looking stuff up is something you should expect to do every now and then.

I guess I just getting tired. Maybe I need to take a day off from this as I been really going at it for a week now. I even forgot to eat lunch this afternoon. :o
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:13 am

I'm actually teaching an 8-year old how to program at the moment. It's delightful to see him "get" a new concept like event handling. No, children absolutely do not learn faster than adults. They have less experiences and learnt concepts to draw on. It's much easier for me to learn a new language (spoken or computer) because I can easily see the relationships between a new language and learnt languages. Additionally, learning a programming language isn't much in and of itself - you need a solid foundation of maths, data structures and algorithms to do useful stuff.
 
whm1974
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:38 am

Pancake wrote:
I'm actually teaching an 8-year old how to program at the moment. It's delightful to see him "get" a new concept like event handling. No, children absolutely do not learn faster than adults. They have less experiences and learnt concepts to draw on. It's much easier for me to learn a new language (spoken or computer) because I can easily see the relationships between a new language and learnt languages. Additionally, learning a programming language isn't much in and of itself - you need a solid foundation of maths, data structures and algorithms to do useful stuff.

OK I'm only half right then.
 
whm1974
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:10 am

whm1974 wrote:
Pancake wrote:
I'm actually teaching an 8-year old how to program at the moment. It's delightful to see him "get" a new concept like event handling. No, children absolutely do not learn faster than adults. They have less experiences and learnt concepts to draw on. It's much easier for me to learn a new language (spoken or computer) because I can easily see the relationships between a new language and learnt languages. Additionally, learning a programming language isn't much in and of itself - you need a solid foundation of maths, data structures and algorithms to do useful stuff.

OK I'm only half right then.

In all seriousness, I think that learning C/C++ is going to be the easy part. The math, data structures and algorithms parts I will probably struggle with for at least while, maybe even need to go back to school just to relearn the basics. Any good beginner's stuff to (re)cover these subjects?
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:39 am

whm1974 wrote:
In all seriousness, I think that learning C/C++ is going to be the easy part. The math, data structures and algorithms parts I will probably struggle with for at least while, maybe even need to go back to school just to relearn the basics. Any good beginner's stuff to (re)cover these subjects?

C is a very unrewarding way to learn about programming. I don't know why you insist on learning it first. It absolutely isn't for beginners. You want to pick up something that teaches you variables and assignments, control flow, string processing, how to do arithmetic, simple data structures like arrays, lists and dictionaries. Something with an easy to use API so you can do a bit of fun graphics to understand iteration and looping. In the old days we mostly started with BASIC built into our home computers and those more adventurous learnt assembly because a 1MHz 6502 just didn't have much firepower. But nowadays there's decent stuff like Python with more tutorials you can poke a stick at all free and online. When you've got that foundation and are doing fun, rewarding stuff and getting good results easily then think about C if you really must. I've got some crusty stories of what "real programmers" do but it's more said in jest and irony.
 
whm1974
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:58 am

Pancake wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
In all seriousness, I think that learning C/C++ is going to be the easy part. The math, data structures and algorithms parts I will probably struggle with for at least while, maybe even need to go back to school just to relearn the basics. Any good beginner's stuff to (re)cover these subjects?

C is a very unrewarding way to learn about programming. I don't know why you insist on learning it first. It absolutely isn't for beginners. You want to pick up something that teaches you variables and assignments, control flow, string processing, how to do arithmetic, simple data structures like arrays, lists and dictionaries. Something with an easy to use API so you can do a bit of fun graphics to understand iteration and looping. In the old days we mostly started with BASIC built into our home computers and those more adventurous learnt assembly because a 1MHz 6502 just didn't have much firepower. But nowadays there's decent stuff like Python with more tutorials you can poke a stick at all free and online. When you've got that foundation and are doing fun, rewarding stuff and getting good results easily then think about C if you really must. I've got some crusty stories of what "real programmers" do but it's more said in jest and irony.

To begin with, I always wanted to learn C/C++ ever since my stepfather brought a couple books on them back in the late 80's and early 90's when we were using a 8-bit Atari 800XL and then later the Tandy 1000/TL2.

Another reason is I'm trying to learn C is because it is hard! As I posted earlier I need a challenging project to keep myself from falling into deeper states of depression. And besides I already gotten the ball rolling so why stop now?
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:55 am

whm1974 wrote:
In all seriousness, I think that learning C/C++ is going to be the easy part. The math, data structures and algorithms parts I will probably struggle with for at least while, maybe even need to go back to school just to relearn the basics. Any good beginner's stuff to (re)cover these subjects?

At this point, most the math you'll need is fairly basic. The truly critical bit is a grasp of Boolean algebra: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_algebra

Example: If A and B are logical values (denoted by 0 for false and 1 for true), what are the possible outcomes for "A and B" (which would be written in C as "A && B")?
+---+---+--------+
| A | B | A && B |
+---+---+--------+
| 0 | 0 |   0    |
+---+---+--------+
| 0 | 1 |   0    |
+---+---+--------+
| 1 | 0 |   0    |
+---+---+--------+
| 1 | 1 |   1    |
+---+---+--------+
The outcome is true (1) only if A *and* B are both true.

Likewise, for "A or B" (written as "A || B" in C code):
+---+---+--------+
| A | B | A || B |
+---+---+--------+
| 0 | 0 |   0    |
+---+---+--------+
| 0 | 1 |   1    |
+---+---+--------+
| 1 | 0 |   1    |
+---+---+--------+
| 1 | 1 |   1    |
+---+---+--------+
The outcome is true (1) if either A *or* B are true.

More complex decisions are made by combining these basic logical expressions, generally with parentheses to make the grouping explicit. E.g., the expression "(A && B) || C" would be true if A and B are both true, OR if C is true.

TBH you're not really at the point of needing to worry about aggregate data structures or algorithms yet, other than basic arrays (since in C character strings are manipulated as arrays of individual characters).
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:31 am

whm1974 wrote:
Pancake wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
In all seriousness, I think that learning C/C++ is going to be the easy part. The math, data structures and algorithms parts I will probably struggle with for at least while, maybe even need to go back to school just to relearn the basics. Any good beginner's stuff to (re)cover these subjects?

C is a very unrewarding way to learn about programming. I don't know why you insist on learning it first. It absolutely isn't for beginners. You want to pick up something that teaches you variables and assignments, control flow, string processing, how to do arithmetic, simple data structures like arrays, lists and dictionaries. Something with an easy to use API so you can do a bit of fun graphics to understand iteration and looping. In the old days we mostly started with BASIC built into our home computers and those more adventurous learnt assembly because a 1MHz 6502 just didn't have much firepower. But nowadays there's decent stuff like Python with more tutorials you can poke a stick at all free and online. When you've got that foundation and are doing fun, rewarding stuff and getting good results easily then think about C if you really must. I've got some crusty stories of what "real programmers" do but it's more said in jest and irony.

To begin with, I always wanted to learn C/C++ ever since my stepfather brought a couple books on them back in the late 80's and early 90's when we were using a 8-bit Atari 800XL and then later the Tandy 1000/TL2.

Another reason is I'm trying to learn C is because it is hard! As I posted earlier I need a challenging project to keep myself from falling into deeper states of depression. And besides I already gotten the ball rolling so why stop now?

I wouldn't say learning C is "unrewarding", but it's definitely more of a delayed gratification sort of thing, in that it'll probably take a lot longer before you'll be able to write programs that do something "interesting". I'd say the rewards (in terms of knowledge/skills) are arguably greater, but that doesn't help if it ends up being so difficult that you give up somewhere along the way.

Recall that I also originally recommended Python to start with.

Let's keep at the C for now since you seem to be highly motivated to learn it, but if it becomes too frustrating, perhaps shift over to Python instead, and come back to C later.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
whm1974
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:00 pm

just brew it! wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Pancake wrote:
C is a very unrewarding way to learn about programming. I don't know why you insist on learning it first. It absolutely isn't for beginners. You want to pick up something that teaches you variables and assignments, control flow, string processing, how to do arithmetic, simple data structures like arrays, lists and dictionaries. Something with an easy to use API so you can do a bit of fun graphics to understand iteration and looping. In the old days we mostly started with BASIC built into our home computers and those more adventurous learnt assembly because a 1MHz 6502 just didn't have much firepower. But nowadays there's decent stuff like Python with more tutorials you can poke a stick at all free and online. When you've got that foundation and are doing fun, rewarding stuff and getting good results easily then think about C if you really must. I've got some crusty stories of what "real programmers" do but it's more said in jest and irony.

To begin with, I always wanted to learn C/C++ ever since my stepfather brought a couple books on them back in the late 80's and early 90's when we were using a 8-bit Atari 800XL and then later the Tandy 1000/TL2.

Another reason is I'm trying to learn C is because it is hard! As I posted earlier I need a challenging project to keep myself from falling into deeper states of depression. And besides I already gotten the ball rolling so why stop now?

I wouldn't say learning C is "unrewarding", but it's definitely more of a delayed gratification sort of thing, in that it'll probably take a lot longer before you'll be able to write programs that do something "interesting". I'd say the rewards (in terms of knowledge/skills) are arguably greater, but that doesn't help if it ends up being so difficult that you give up somewhere along the way.

Recall that I also originally recommended Python to start with.

Let's keep at the C for now since you seem to be highly motivated to learn it, but if it becomes too frustrating, perhaps shift over to Python instead, and come back to C later.

Thanks JBI. I wonder if I should take a break every now and then so I don't get burned out?
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:37 am

whm1974 wrote:
Thanks JBI. I wonder if I should take a break every now and then so I don't get burned out?

How much time have you been spending on this anyway?

FWIW I've found that getting up from my desk and walking around for a couple of minutes can help clear my head if I'm stuck trying to understand something. (The downside for me is that "get up and walk around" often means "go get a snack"... I think I gain a few pounds when working on difficult projects!)
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:12 am

just brew it! wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Thanks JBI. I wonder if I should take a break every now and then so I don't get burned out?

How much time have you been spending on this anyway?

FWIW I've found that getting up from my desk and walking around for a couple of minutes can help clear my head if I'm stuck trying to understand something. (The downside for me is that "get up and walk around" often means "go get a snack"... I think I gain a few pounds when working on difficult projects!)

Quite a bit everyday for a little over a week now, almost to the point that I just about cussed a friend out for for consonantly calling me all of the time after I told him what I'm doing and that I'm very busy. I had to tell him that I'm trying to stay focused learning this and that he really needs to find something constructive to do with his time and maybe learn how to do new things(he's on disability as well), Most of the time he just wants to talk about crap anyway.
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