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Redocbew
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:24 pm

just brew it! wrote:
I have a lot of projects like that. Both tech and non-tech related. :lol:


How do you think I so easily recognized the process? :lol:

I usually have quite a few unfinished non-tech projects going, but not many tech related projects outside of work. I do have one of those at the moment though, and that's unfinished also. :P
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whm1974
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:56 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Redocbew wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Oh yes I really do want to learn C, but if I can learn how to do a bunch of other things along the way, well then that will be great as well.

One project at a time dude. Otherwise you'll be one of those people who has 8 different projects going all at varying levels of being unfinished. There's nothing really wrong with that in its self, unless you want to get to a point where you feel like you've finished something.

I have a lot of projects like that. Both tech and non-tech related. :lol:

But yeah, @whm1974, if you're serious about doing this, try not to go off on too many tangents. Seems like you've got some enthusiasm/momentum right now; if you put it aside, you may lose that.

Thanks I will keep that in mind.
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:33 pm

whm1974 wrote:
I picked CherryTree due to being hierarchical and cross platform. I'm reading the manual now.


whm1974, your notes only need to make sense to you. They're really for helping fix the lessons into memory more than later review.

I'm not saying that keeping them legible is a bad thing and later review never happens (it does), but you don't need to worry about getting it right in a specific formal way.
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:01 pm

You do have to finish something at some point. This is not about software development but it makes a two great points:

You have to deliver (finish) something in order to evaluate it.
Each "product" should be better than the last - don't plateau.

Roughly five years ago I started looking at everything I did as a "project" and made decisions based on that project.

* Set a goal
* Set a reasonable deadline
* Map out how you're going to get to that goal by the deadline.

Yes, even self-directed learning. I figured out what I wanted to make (a simple app that lets you pick a date, look at your contacts to select people present, and take notes about a meeting), and I've written it three times: a Windows Phone app, an iOS app in Swift, and an ASPX.NET web app.

Doing that will help eliminate distractions.
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whm1974
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:58 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
I picked CherryTree due to being hierarchical and cross platform. I'm reading the manual now.


whm1974, your notes only need to make sense to you. They're really for helping fix the lessons into memory more than later review.

I'm not saying that keeping them legible is a bad thing and later review never happens (it does), but you don't need to worry about getting it right in a specific formal way.

I figured that learn C is hard enough that good notes and reviewing them often is a must. Plus CherryTree can export to PDF, which I can put on my Kindle as well.
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:10 pm

whm1974 wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
I picked CherryTree due to being hierarchical and cross platform. I'm reading the manual now.


whm1974, your notes only need to make sense to you. They're really for helping fix the lessons into memory more than later review.

I'm not saying that keeping them legible is a bad thing and later review never happens (it does), but you don't need to worry about getting it right in a specific formal way.

I figured that learn C is hard enough that good notes and reviewing them often is a must. Plus CherryTree can export to PDF, which I can put on my Kindle as well.


Have you actually progressed beyond this?

void main()
{
}

How about something simple like:

void main()
{
int a = 5;
int b = 7;
int c = a * b;
printf("the result is %i\n", c);
}

then onto this:

void main()
{
int a = 0;
int i = 1;

while (i <= 10)
{
printf("%I\n", i);
a = a + i;
i = i + 1;
}

printf("Grand total = %i\n", a);
}

little building blocks? They almost read like English above?
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:26 pm

Pancake wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:

whm1974, your notes only need to make sense to you. They're really for helping fix the lessons into memory more than later review.

I'm not saying that keeping them legible is a bad thing and later review never happens (it does), but you don't need to worry about getting it right in a specific formal way.

I figured that learn C is hard enough that good notes and reviewing them often is a must. Plus CherryTree can export to PDF, which I can put on my Kindle as well.


Have you actually progressed beyond this?

void main()
{
}

How about something simple like:

void main()
{
int a = 5;
int b = 7;
int c = a * b;
printf("the result is %i\n", c);
}

then onto this:

void main()
{
int a = 0;
int i = 1;

while (i <= 10)
{
printf("%I\n", i);
a = a + i;
i = i + 1;
}

printf("Grand total = %i\n", a);
}

little building blocks? They almost read like English above?

Not really but I am getting there. One thing I'm not clear on is when to use printf() or use fprintf() instead?
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:45 pm

whm1974 wrote:
Not really but I am getting there. One thing I'm not clear on is when to use printf() or use fprintf() instead?

The printf() function writes everything to stdout, which is the terminal window unless you've redirected it to a file or pipe on the command line.

The fprintf() function lets you write the output to anywhere you want. One common use of fprintf() is to write a message to stderr, which will still appear in the terminal window even if stdout has been redirected. IOW, as the name "stderr" implies, it is used for error messages that you want the user to see even if stdout is going somewhere else.

The fprintf() function is also used to write to arbitrary text files which have been opened with the fopen() function.

Calling fprintf() with a first argument of stdout is equivalent to calling printf().
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:05 pm

/*  printf-vs-fprintf.c
 *
 *  Illustrate the difference between printf() and fprintf(), and how to
 *  write to a named file.
 */

#include <stdio.h>

int main()
{
    /* write some text to stdout and stderr */
    printf("This goes to stdout, and appears in the terminal window unless redirected.\n");
    fprintf(stderr, "This will appear in the terminal window even if stdout is redirected.\n");
    /* write to "stuff" */
    FILE *f = fopen("stuff", "w");
    fprintf(f, "This is being written to a file named \"stuff\".\n");
    /* close the file when we're done */
    fclose(f);
    /* return success */
    return 0;
}

The above program actually has a bug. In a proper program, we'd test the result of the fopen() call to make sure it isn't NULL before executing that last fprintf(). A NULL return from fopen() can happen if you don't have write permission in the current directory. Without the test (as coded above), the program will throw a segmentation fault if you don't have permission to create a file named "stuff" in the current directory.

Exercise for the reader: Fix the bug. Make it write the message "Can't create stuff" to stderr if the file could not be created, instead of triggering a segmentation fault.
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:11 pm

just brew it! wrote:
/*  printf-vs-fprintf.c
 *
 *  Illustrate the difference between printf() and fprintf(), and how to
 *  write to a named file.
 */

#include <stdio.h>

int main()
{
    /* write some text to stdout and stderr */
    printf("This goes to stdout, and appears in the terminal window unless redirected.\n");
    fprintf(stderr, "This will appear in the terminal window even if stdout is redirected.\n");
    /* write to "stuff" */
    FILE *f = fopen("stuff", "w");
    fprintf(f, "This is being written to a file named \"stuff\".\n");
    /* close the file when we're done */
    fclose(f);
    /* return success */
    return 0;
}

Thank you so much jbi, this makes things so much clearer now. Kids now days don't realize just how easy they have it now, having Internet access sure does makes all kinds of resources available for help with learning hard subjects.
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:12 pm

Please also note the stuff I added to the bottom of the post in a subsequent edit.
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:18 pm

Thanks to this thread, I finally got an answer to a question I've had since the middle of learning C++ syntax. This has to be simple stuff. I guess it's the classic problem of not being able to explain the question.

If you're interested what I found: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/586 ... -windows-7

Probably a bigger concern is getting through multiple college programming classes (75% of the bachelor curriculum at least) without ever running into or reading about the FSTREAM class is probably an issue all of its own. I mean, seriously, how?!
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:23 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
Thanks to this thread, I finally got an answer to a question I've had since the middle of learning C++ syntax. This has to be simple stuff. I guess it's the classic problem of not being able to explain the question.

If you're interested what I found: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/586 ... -windows-7

Probably a bigger concern is getting through multiple college programming classes (75% of the bachelor curriculum at least) without ever running into or reading about the FSTREAM class is probably an issue all of its own. I mean, seriously, how?!


I was a CS major beginning college and this was covered in the first four? or five? chapters of my very first programming class (C++). I can't be completely certain it was the first four or five, but it was early on.

edit: Just to elaborate a bit. We had multiple projects that required reading in data from files and writing out data to files after some sort of operations were performed. Writing to and reading from files is a very common thing. I'm surprised you never covered it in your experience.
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:09 pm

My CS undergrad started with Pascal, switched to C, and then switched again to C++, this was Penn State from 95-97. So maybe file handling got lost somewhere in the mixup. The program was generally sub-par (sad because the profs seemed good), and if degrees other than CS had existed back then I would have switched.

Well, there was CompEng, but, seriously, it would be easier to be a Physicist than go through those courses.
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:14 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
My CS undergrad started with Pascal, switched to C, and then switched again to C++, this was Penn State from 95-97. So maybe file handling got lost somewhere in the mixup. The program was generally sub-par (sad because the profs seemed good), and if degrees other than CS had existed back then I would have switched.

Well, there was CompEng, but, seriously, it would be easier to be a Physicist than go through those courses.


Haha! I took Circuits, Digital Logic, and Electromagnetics, which were all CompEng classes and did pretty well, but I love that stuff. I, oddly, ended up with a Physics degree.

My CS undergrad tenure started with C++, then Java, then you kinda got to pick based on electives which way you wanted to go. C++ and Java were both required based on which classes you had to take if you were CS or CoE (that's how they abbreviated Computer Engineering at my school).
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:25 pm

DancinJack wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
My CS undergrad started with Pascal, switched to C, and then switched again to C++, this was Penn State from 95-97. So maybe file handling got lost somewhere in the mixup. The program was generally sub-par (sad because the profs seemed good), and if degrees other than CS had existed back then I would have switched.

Well, there was CompEng, but, seriously, it would be easier to be a Physicist than go through those courses.


Haha! I took Circuits, Digital Logic, and Electromagnetics, which were all CompEng classes and did pretty well, but I love that stuff. I, oddly, ended up with a Physics degree.

My CS undergrad tenure started with C++, then Java, then you kinda got to pick based on electives which way you wanted to go. C++ and Java were both required based on which classes you had to take if you were CS or CoE (that's how they abbreviated Computer Engineering at my school).


More power to you!

My best friend in college was CompEng. Awesome subject, but there's not enough motivation in the world to get through those courses. I had some of them as electives because I had delusions of a dual major and wanted to share more classes with my friend.

I still remember some dedicated kids clearly less intelligent than the two of us grinding through that material in 300+ level courses, getting 2.0 all the way. I felt bad even at a remove. Nightmare fuel. The really sad part is that they were clearly learning the content but didn't have the GPA to show for it.
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:39 pm

My major was CS but I took some EE courses as well. First one was really rough because I jumped into the middle of the sequence with a 300-level course, not having had the proper prerequisites (I'd had the CS "equivalents", emphasis on the quotation marks there). I liked the course on transistor circuits though, which was apparently greatly despised by most of the EE students.
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:43 pm

Yeah, I wasn't trying to give you crap or anything Vhalidictes. I didn't think Circuits or Emag were easy. Just that we seemed to be in a similar situation during college. I'm sure a lot of people in CS/EE/CoE go through a similar situation.

Anyway, sorry for (sorta) thread-jacking.
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:58 pm

DancinJack wrote:
Yeah, I wasn't trying to give you crap or anything Vhalidictes. I didn't think Circuits or Emag were easy. Just that we seemed to be in a similar situation during college. I'm sure a lot of people in CS/EE/CoE go through a similar situation.

Anyway, sorry for (sorta) thread-jacking.

That's OK, I'm still reading this thread and you guy are still me keeping going. I just got sidetracked into looking at 4K Monitors and TVs. I did start over with the learning material again and begin taking notes this time using the CherryTree app. Granted I just started using it, but it does seem to be very suitable for what I'm doing.
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:05 pm

Don't forget your homework either. :wink:
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:08 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Don't forget your homework either. :wink:

If I do, I'm sure you will remind me. :D
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:30 pm

lol he's not your mom
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:42 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
lol he's not your mom

No but he is old enough to be my dad I think, he's what around 60?
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:01 am

Not quite old enough to be your dad. But as the forum admin I feel like I am sometimes...
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:12 am

just brew it! wrote:
Not quite old enough to be your dad. But as the forum admin I feel like I am sometimes...

Depend on how old you were when you started having children. One of my friends back in high school 11 y/o brother got some high school girl pregnant. :o Talk about starting young... :roll:
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:13 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
Probably a bigger concern is getting through multiple college programming classes (75% of the bachelor curriculum at least) without ever running into or reading about the FSTREAM class is probably an issue all of its own. I mean, seriously, how?!


Redirecting stdout and stderr in the shell perhaps? There is a lot of stuff that isn't covered in college.
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:30 pm

Rosettacode.org is another good place to see how to do things in various programming languages.

just brew it! wrote:
FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
What are you trying to do with Python? It's not particularly good at interfacing with the system, but aside from that Python is pretty good.

Depends what you mean by "interfacing with the system". If (as I assume) you mean making native system calls where there isn't already a Python wrapper or library, or effective use of native multi-threading, then yeah I agree, it kinda sucks at those things. OTOH, running shell commands as sub-processes is easy.


Yep, all those things. :D Staying within Python makes things much easier, and things get clunky when going outside the ecosystem.

I've come to terms with Python being an old school Unix program that favors forking over multi-threading. It makes sense for it's mission of simplicity, and the easiest way to not deal with locks and race conditions is to fork a process and make it communicate using IPC.

I don't particularly like using sub-processing. There's no guarantee the output is going to be machine parsable, and making CLI output human readable is en vogue these days.
 
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:38 pm

whm1974 wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Not quite old enough to be your dad. But as the forum admin I feel like I am sometimes...

Depend on how old you were when you started having children. One of my friends back in high school 11 y/o brother got some high school girl pregnant. :o Talk about starting young... :roll:

Well this thread has certainly taken a weird turn. While I did start a family fairly young, I wasn't that young. So while I'm old enough to be your parent technically/biologically, it would be... *ahem*... "very strange". :lol:

FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
Probably a bigger concern is getting through multiple college programming classes (75% of the bachelor curriculum at least) without ever running into or reading about the FSTREAM class is probably an issue all of its own. I mean, seriously, how?!

Redirecting stdout and stderr in the shell perhaps? There is a lot of stuff that isn't covered in college.

College courses can indeed be very light on "how to actually apply this in the real world" type topics. On the one hand, that's a problem if you're trying to best prepare people to enter the job market upon graduation. On the other hand, you really do want to teach general principles instead of specific details, so that graduates have a context within which to learn as technology changes. When I was in college, UNIX was still relatively new; teaching specific details of the UNIX ecosystem would've been a bit of a gamble, since there was no guarantee that UNIX would catch on.

FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
Yep, all those things. :D Staying within Python makes things much easier, and things get clunky when going outside the ecosystem.

Yeah, it's a bit of a "walled garden" approach, but the garden is really huge, and there's that dark corner at the far end where you can crawl through the bushes growing across the gap in the wall, and write Python-callable modules in C/C++ if absolutely necessary. :wink:

FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
I've come to terms with Python being an old school Unix program that favors forking over multi-threading. It makes sense for it's mission of simplicity, and the easiest way to not deal with locks and race conditions is to fork a process and make it communicate using IPC.

Yup. The GIL (Global Interpreter Lock) issue has kind of forced that mentality on the Python community. A few years back Google had a project to make multi-threading in Python more effective by getting rid of the CPython GIL, but I haven't heard anything in a while so I suspect they've given up.

Python threading works reasonably well for I/O-bound workloads, since you're not waiting while holding on to the GIL. So server workloads that aren't CPU-limited can be coded in Python fairly effectively.

FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
I don't particularly like using sub-processing. There's no guarantee the output is going to be machine parsable, and making CLI output human readable is en vogue these days.

Yeah, tell me about it... one of the defects I'm currently involved with (peripherally) at the day job looks like it may be a result of a Python program incorrectly parsing the output of a CLI command it launched. It happened in a production environment and most of the evidence got burned up in the resulting dumpster fire, so we're still in the "try to reproduce in an environment where we can capture the evidence" stage on that one.
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:58 pm

just brew it! wrote:
FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
Vhalidictes wrote:
Probably a bigger concern is getting through multiple college programming classes (75% of the bachelor curriculum at least) without ever running into or reading about the FSTREAM class is probably an issue all of its own. I mean, seriously, how?!

Redirecting stdout and stderr in the shell perhaps? There is a lot of stuff that isn't covered in college.

College courses can indeed be very light on "how to actually apply this in the real world" type topics. On the one hand, that's a problem if you're trying to best prepare people to enter the job market upon graduation. On the other hand, you really do want to teach general principles instead of specific details, so that graduates have a context within which to learn as technology changes. When I was in college, UNIX was still relatively new; teaching specific details of the UNIX ecosystem would've been a bit of a gamble, since there was no guarantee that UNIX would catch on.

I dunno if it's the specific curriculum selected for the classes or what, but it feels like 90-95% of what I'm doing is applicable in the real world in different ways. It started very early as teaching things like do loops and breaking up things into methods using real-world items like CLI menus and has progressed steadily towards segmenting business logic from the UI by creating two UIs that use the same "backend" stuff.

The problem is time. In two or four years you can't possibly learn every single real-world application or cover every single scenario you're going to run into. Reading and writing text files in the file system (like Vhalidictes' situation) might be a pretty extreme example, but I've run into stuff at work quite often that wasn't covered in a course, and my guess is that every person in this thread has, too.
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Re: GCC errors with compiling C code.

Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:20 pm

The stuff that doesn't seem to fit comes later, like the courses on Theory of Computation. Also, I would say that if you're looking at specific things like loops and object orientation and applying those to a problem in general, then you've already trained yourself to think in concepts instead of approaching each problem mechanically as if the ways to solve it were all set in stone.
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