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FlamingSpaceJunk
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.NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:14 pm

Does anyone have any impressions of .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS?

I'm wondering about IDE/text editor experiences, toolchain maturity, or experiences porting applications. If it's worth it, I might spend sometime getting familiar with C#, and use .NET Core as a way to move web apps or do Windows automation using C# libs.
 
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:34 pm

I write C# for .NET on Mac every day, but not really in the ways that you want to. My experience with .NET on macOS is entirely based on Xamarin. I really like it but I don't know how it compares to whatever it is you're trying to replace. 90% of the app I'm porting is in shared code that "just works" on iOS, Android, and Windows 10 UWP. The other 10% is either writing custom renderers for Xamarin Forms (still in C# but using native controls) or implementing interfaces with C# talking to native functionality.

Trying to replicate a couple years' worth of work in four months was a sucky way to get introduced, and my code is not super sterile yet, but the way that MVVM apps are abstracted makes a ton of sense to me and feels natural. I really *like* coding the way Microsoft wants you to do it.
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:29 am

Well it looks like I'm going to learn both Visual Basic and C# for school wither I want to or not. Since I have to learn them anyway, I might as well learn how to use both of them for cross platform programming.
 
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:24 pm

FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
I'm wondering about IDE/text editor experiences

Visual Studio: Windows/Mac, most comprehensive, but perhaps a bit bloated if you use only like 5% of the functionality.
Visual Studio Code: all OS, the new fling if you are not satisfied with whatever text editor that you like.
Any good old text editor: as long as it has syntax highlighting for C#/HTML/TypeScript/JavaScript/CSS/XML/JSON, I think you should be golden.
Looks like

FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
toolchain maturity

Compilers are fairly matured since they are open sourced and work on all platforms. You get the best experience (in terms of hand-holding) if you use Visual Studio full IDE of course. For VS Code you can install the C# compiler extension right there and it can take care of things for you (there are probably other VS Code extensions to help with the development/test/debug experience). Of course, if you want to just call the compilers on the command line you sure can. Not too sure about other tools like profilers.

FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
If it's worth it, I might spend sometime getting familiar with C#, and use .NET Core as a way to move web apps

It may depend on where you are coming from. If you have say Python scripts, then why not just use a Python runtime on Windows and run the existing scripts anyway? If you are using Node.js for your web apps, I don't think you need to force yourself to go the roundabout way to rewrite a .NET Core web app just that it is portable.

FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
Windows automation using C# libs.

What sort of Windows automation? Just beware that "C# libs" targeting good old .NET Framework are different from libs targeting the .NET Core due to the different runtime layer. Perhaps your scripts on other platforms can already be run on Windows, either natively or via a Windows-based runtime engine? In reverse, PowerShell is now available on select Linux distros so people coming from the Windows side will not be completely helpless (some "porting" and adjustments may be needed).

whm1974 wrote:
Well it looks like I'm going to learn both Visual Basic and C# for school wither I want to or not. Since I have to learn them anyway, I might as well learn how to use both of them for cross platform programming.

Try not to spend too much energy on VB, it is going out of favour.
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:44 pm

Flying Fox wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Well it looks like I'm going to learn both Visual Basic and C# for school wither I want to or not. Since I have to learn them anyway, I might as well learn how to use both of them for cross platform programming.

Try not to spend too much energy on VB, it is going out of favour.

I do have to take one class of VB for the degree. I can however choose to take C++ for my electives, which I'm going to do.
 
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:25 am

whm1974 wrote:
Flying Fox wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Well it looks like I'm going to learn both Visual Basic and C# for school wither I want to or not. Since I have to learn them anyway, I might as well learn how to use both of them for cross platform programming.

Try not to spend too much energy on VB, it is going out of favour.

I do have to take one class of VB for the degree. I can however choose to take C++ for my electives, which I'm going to do.

Having an introduction to VB may be useful for when encountering MS Office VBA code in the wild. That said, I'm surprised your school is not starting with Python and C# instead of VB and C#.

Edit: Depending on the sort of work you may wish to get into, getting comfortable with Powershell may be a wise investment.
 
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:48 am

DrCR wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Flying Fox wrote:

Try not to spend too much energy on VB, it is going out of favour.

I do have to take one class of VB for the degree. I can however choose to take C++ for my electives, which I'm going to do.

Having an introduction to VB may be useful for when encountering MS Office VBA code in the wild. That said, I'm surprised your school is not starting with Python and C# instead of VB and C#.

Edit: Depending on the sort of work you may wish to get into, getting comfortable with Powershell may be a wise investment.

I'll probably need to talk to an adviser about which courses to take, but I'm under the impression the both C and C++ are still very widely used. My two goals are to write applications for Linux and Linux gaming.
 
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:28 am

whm1974 wrote:
I'll probably need to talk to an adviser about which courses to take, but I'm under the impression the both C and C++ are still very widely used. My two goals are to write applications for Linux and Linux gaming.

I wouldn't say C is widely used any more; it is mostly limited to specific niches (real-time/embedded and OS kernels). C++ is more broadly applicable, but overall I'd guess that Java, Python, and JavaScript are more widely used than C++ these days.

I also would not count on an academic advisor knowing what's going on in the industry any better than the developers in this forum. :wink:
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:31 am

just brew it! wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
I'll probably need to talk to an adviser about which courses to take, but I'm under the impression the both C and C++ are still very widely used. My two goals are to write applications for Linux and Linux gaming.

I wouldn't say C is widely used any more; it is mostly limited to specific niches (real-time/embedded and OS kernels). C++ is more broadly applicable, but overall I'd guess that Java, Python, and JavaScript are more widely used than C++ these days.

I also would not count on an academic advisor knowing what's going on in the industry any better than the developers in this forum. :wink:

What about game development? Isn't that still mostly written in C++?
 
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:41 am

Yes, I am pretty sure that is still the case, at least for PC/console games that tend to push the performance of the hardware. "Casual" games may be a different story.

For mobile game development it's Objective-C or Swift (on iOS) or Java (on Android).
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:49 am

derFunkenstein wrote:
I write C# for .NET on Mac every day, but not really in the ways that you want to. My experience with .NET on macOS is entirely based on Xamarin. I really like it but I don't know how it compares to whatever it is you're trying to replace. 90% of the app I'm porting is in shared code that "just works" on iOS, Android, and Windows 10 UWP.


Ah, alright. That's good to know.

I'm focused on web and console apps. I'm curious about the experience of code collaboration between Windows users, MacOS users, and Linux users, and then deploying the app on Linux serves for production.

A specific use case would be to allow Windows admins to write a health check in C#, and they could then upload the check to a Linux based monitoring product for use. Or I never have to leave MacOS or Linux, but I can still use existing libs for Windows automation.
 
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:03 am

just brew it! wrote:
Java (on Android).


Google is pushing Kotlin for new Android applications. https://kotlinlang.org/

just brew it! wrote:
I also would not count on an academic advisor knowing what's going on in the industry any better than the developers in this forum. :wink:


I wouldn't count on academic advisers knowing much of anything. :) Students should definitely know their degree plan and know which version they're on just in case it changes.
 
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:27 am

FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Java (on Android).


Google is pushing Kotlin for new Android applications. https://kotlinlang.org/

just brew it! wrote:
I also would not count on an academic advisor knowing what's going on in the industry any better than the developers in this forum. :wink:


I wouldn't count on academic advisers knowing much of anything. :) Students should definitely know their degree plan and know which version they're on just in case it changes.

Now I'm wondering just how many languages I will end up learning by the time I'm done.
 
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:49 am

Flying Fox wrote:
FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
I'm wondering about IDE/text editor experiences

Visual Studio: Windows/Mac, most comprehensive, but perhaps a bit bloated if you use only like 5% of the functionality.
Visual Studio Code: all OS, the new fling if you are not satisfied with whatever text editor that you like.
Any good old text editor: as long as it has syntax highlighting for C#/HTML/TypeScript/JavaScript/CSS/XML/JSON, I think you should be golden.


Visual Studio Code with the C# extension is probably what I'll try first. I was looking at the Spacemacs C# layer, and it seems a bit thin. I haven't looked at Vim plugins yet, so I'm not sure where that stands.

FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
toolchain maturity

Compilers are fairly matured since they are open sourced and work on all platforms. You get the best experience (in terms of hand-holding) if you use Visual Studio full IDE of course. For VS Code you can install the C# compiler extension right there and it can take care of things for you (there are probably other VS Code extensions to help with the development/test/debug experience). Of course, if you want to just call the compilers on the command line you sure can. Not too sure about other tools like profilers.


Profilers, linters, and debuggers are specifically what I'm curious about. The compiler is pretty much a known quantity, but the rest of the ecosystem isn't.

FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
If it's worth it, I might spend sometime getting familiar with C#, and use .NET Core as a way to move web apps

It may depend on where you are coming from. If you have say Python scripts, then why not just use a Python runtime on Windows and run the existing scripts anyway? If you are using Node.js for your web apps, I don't think you need to force yourself to go the roundabout way to rewrite a .NET Core web app just that it is portable.


I have a Python, Perl, C++, C background.

There are a few reasons for this.
* Python is pretty portable, but there are some features that don't translate to Windows.
* Some people just insist on C#. This came up a about a month ago. I do contracting work for an agency on the side, and they had a project to build an interim web app. I said I could do it in Python, and they said they wanted it in C#. :-?
* This is about replacing Windows serves with Linux servers. The area I live in is MS heavy. Some Serverless services support C#, and I have a small consulting and services business.
* Leverage existing C# resources a company has to run custom C# code on a Linux based product. (This is the day job part.)


FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
Windows automation using C# libs.

What sort of Windows automation? Just beware that "C# libs" targeting good old .NET Framework are different from libs targeting the .NET Core due to the different runtime layer. Perhaps your scripts on other platforms can already be run on Windows, either natively or via a Windows-based runtime engine? In reverse, PowerShell is now available on select Linux distros so people coming from the Windows side will not be completely helpless (some "porting" and adjustments may be needed).


Mainly dealing with AD. User creation, group assignment, that sort of thing. Stuff that can probably be done in Ansible with less hassle. :)

Good to know there is a difference between .NET Framework and .NET Core.

The idea is to not run anything on Windows. I don't want to leave MacOS or Linux. Other people can work on Windows, but I want to be able to work with the code on MacOS or Linux. :)

I've tried PowerShell a long time ago, and I didn't care for it. It's way too verbose, and it was actively hostile to user scripts. It's basically the second most user hostile program I've every encountered. The first is a ticketing system. :) An object oriented shell is an interesting idea, but the execution is lacking.
 
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:51 am

whm1974 wrote:
Now I'm wondering just how many languages I will end up learning by the time I'm done.

Define "done". I've been tinkering/studying/working in the field for ~4 decades, and I'm not "done". In approximate chronological order throughout the years: BASIC, FORTRAN, 8080/Z-80 assembly, Pascal, C, 68000 assembly, 6502 assembly, x86 assembly, bash shell, i860 assembly, C++, SQL, Python, Java (just enough to be dangerous), PHP, a touch of JavaScript, VHDL, C++11 (very different from "classic" C++, I consider it to be its own language), and (most recently) a bit of x86-64 assembly. I've probably forgotten a few.

I'd currently consider myself fluent in C/C++, Python, and bash shell, since that's what I use the most at the day job.

Specific programming languages are tools. If the problem you're trying to solve is best suited to a language you don't know, you learn the language. The general problem solving skills and algorithms you need are broadly applicable across all of the languages I've listed above (OK, VHDL excepted, that's just mind-bending alien craziness, and SQL isn't really a programming language per se).
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:58 am

FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
Flying Fox wrote:
FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
I'm wondering about IDE/text editor experiences

Visual Studio: Windows/Mac, most comprehensive, but perhaps a bit bloated if you use only like 5% of the functionality.
Visual Studio Code: all OS, the new fling if you are not satisfied with whatever text editor that you like.
Any good old text editor: as long as it has syntax highlighting for C#/HTML/TypeScript/JavaScript/CSS/XML/JSON, I think you should be golden.


Visual Studio Code with the C# extension is probably what I'll try first. I was looking at the Spacemacs C# layer, and it seems a bit thin. I haven't looked at Vim plugins yet, so I'm not sure where that stands.

FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
toolchain maturity

Compilers are fairly matured since they are open sourced and work on all platforms. You get the best experience (in terms of hand-holding) if you use Visual Studio full IDE of course. For VS Code you can install the C# compiler extension right there and it can take care of things for you (there are probably other VS Code extensions to help with the development/test/debug experience). Of course, if you want to just call the compilers on the command line you sure can. Not too sure about other tools like profilers.


Profilers, linters, and debuggers are specifically what I'm curious about. The compiler is pretty much a known quantity, but the rest of the ecosystem isn't.

FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
If it's worth it, I might spend sometime getting familiar with C#, and use .NET Core as a way to move web apps

It may depend on where you are coming from. If you have say Python scripts, then why not just use a Python runtime on Windows and run the existing scripts anyway? If you are using Node.js for your web apps, I don't think you need to force yourself to go the roundabout way to rewrite a .NET Core web app just that it is portable.


I have a Python, Perl, C++, C background.

There are a few reasons for this.
* Python is pretty portable, but there are some features that don't translate to Windows.
* Some people just insist on C#. This came up a about a month ago. I do contracting work for an agency on the side, and they had a project to build an interim web app. I said I could do it in Python, and they said they wanted it in C#. :-?
* This is about replacing Windows serves with Linux servers. The area I live in is MS heavy. Some Serverless services support C#, and I have a small consulting and services business.
* Leverage existing C# resources a company has to run custom C# code on a Linux based product. (This is the day job part.)


FlamingSpaceJunk wrote:
Windows automation using C# libs.

What sort of Windows automation? Just beware that "C# libs" targeting good old .NET Framework are different from libs targeting the .NET Core due to the different runtime layer. Perhaps your scripts on other platforms can already be run on Windows, either natively or via a Windows-based runtime engine? In reverse, PowerShell is now available on select Linux distros so people coming from the Windows side will not be completely helpless (some "porting" and adjustments may be needed).


Mainly dealing with AD. User creation, group assignment, that sort of thing. Stuff that can probably be done in Ansible with less hassle. :)

Good to know there is a difference between .NET Framework and .NET Core.

The idea is to not run anything on Windows. I don't want to leave MacOS or Linux. Other people can work on Windows, but I want to be able to work with the code on MacOS or Linux. :)

I've tried PowerShell a long time ago, and I didn't care for it. It's way too verbose, and it was actively hostile to user scripts. It's basically the second most user hostile program I've every encountered. The first is a ticketing system. :) An object oriented shell is an interesting idea, but the execution is lacking.

From reading this, I'm getting the impression that I could well by learning C# and getting good at it. I'm thinking that knowing C++, C#, Java, Perl, and Python will go a long way.
 
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:00 am

whm1974 wrote:
From reading this, I'm getting the impression that I could well by learning C# and getting good at it. I'm thinking that knowing C++, C#, Java, Perl, and Python will go a long way.

While there's a lot of Perl code out there, my impression is that its popularity is declining, as Python fits into much the same niche and is a more "modern" language. Of the languages you just listed, I'd put Perl last in terms of priority.
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:03 am

just brew it! wrote:
Yes, I am pretty sure that is still the case, at least for PC/console games that tend to push the performance of the hardware. "Casual" games may be a different story.

For mobile game development it's Objective-C or Swift (on iOS) or Java (on Android).

For more casual games, it's most likely engine-determined. Want to use Unity? C# all the way, baby (and that includes both desktop and mobile)
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:29 am

derFunkenstein wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Yes, I am pretty sure that is still the case, at least for PC/console games that tend to push the performance of the hardware. "Casual" games may be a different story.

For mobile game development it's Objective-C or Swift (on iOS) or Java (on Android).

For more casual games, it's most likely engine-determined. Want to use Unity? C# all the way, baby (and that includes both desktop and mobile)

I guess I ought to add C# to my own "to do" list. :wink:

I moved away from the Windows development world right around the time it started to catch on, so I never had any significant exposure to projects that used it. Most of my Windows development experience was back in the days when MFC was the framework most people used.
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:47 am

just brew it! wrote:
derFunkenstein wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Yes, I am pretty sure that is still the case, at least for PC/console games that tend to push the performance of the hardware. "Casual" games may be a different story.

For mobile game development it's Objective-C or Swift (on iOS) or Java (on Android).

For more casual games, it's most likely engine-determined. Want to use Unity? C# all the way, baby (and that includes both desktop and mobile)

I guess I ought to add C# to my own "to do" list. :wink:

I moved away from the Windows development world right around the time it started to catch on, so I never had any significant exposure to projects that used it. Most of my Windows development experience was back in the days when MFC was the framework most people used.

While I would perfectly happy only doing Linux game development, I guess I would have to deal with Windows development for school and pay bills since games are pretty much cross platform these days. So C#, C++, Java, and Python I will be busy learning and trying to get good at.
 
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:23 pm

just brew it! wrote:
While there's a lot of Perl code out there, my impression is that its popularity is declining, as Python fits into much the same niche and is a more "modern" language. Of the languages you just listed, I'd put Perl last in terms of priority.


Indeed. C# --> C/C++ --> Python --> Perl is probably the way to go.

Perl is declining, but there is still opportunity there. Large Perl codebases still need to be maintained, and with declining, popularity comes a shrinking talent pool.

I find Perl to be a good step up from just Shell Scripting, and a good intermediate between Shell and Python. Perl isn't as limited as sh or bash, and Perl is good at text processing which replaces lots sub-shells. Python is kind of heavy, and I find it best when things are infrequently called or long running.

whm1974 wrote:
From reading this, I'm getting the impression that I could well by learning C# and getting good at it. I'm thinking that knowing C++, C#, Java, Perl, and Python will go a long way.


For game development, I would talk with some game devs in the industry to see what they use day to day and scan job openings at various game studios to get an idea about what they are looking for. Game development isn't something I do. I'm on the Linux system design, administration, business side of things. :)

Also, keep in mind there are lots of different facets to game design. There is the game itself which people sit down in front of, and then there are parts like game servers which are network and server heavy. If you're proficient at Linux, that might be a good area to keep an eye on.

Anyway, this is off topic.
 
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:35 pm

Sorry I didn't mean to derail this thread. Any tips on using .NET Core to make life easier with writing programs for Linux and Windows?
 
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:58 pm

whm1974 wrote:
Sorry I didn't mean to derail this thread. Any tips on using .NET Core to make life easier with writing programs for Linux and Windows?


No worries. From me, not yet. I just started playing with it.
 
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Re: .NET Core on Linux and/or MacOS

Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:11 pm

After some initial playing around... C# on .NET Core is more like Java then Go, Rust, or C/C++. I built a self-contained executable using the default "Hello World" boilerplate, and it requires 178 files to run on a clean Linux install. That pretty much kills it for everything that isn't long running (web apps, network services).

Aside from that, the dotnet tool has some quirks, but it works once the documentation has been read.

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