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Hello, all,

I'm in the planning stages of a build for an HTPC that can also completely demolish a PS4 or XB One at gaming, and am looking for some advice on what components would be best. I have quite a bit of experience building my own systems, but to date all of that experience has been in mid-towers, so I'm not that familiar with SFF components or the gotchas of working in a small case.

Budget: Canadian dollars $800 - $1200 (could go higher if necessary, but prefer not to). Also, since I'm in Canada, sadly there aren't any Microcenters nearby (just to pre-empt those suggestions...)

Time Frame: between now and mid-April (so can wait for sales before buying)

Usage: Gaming at 1080 rez on my existing HDTV, predominantly racing games (Assetto Corsa at first, probably iRacing at some point and Project CARS when it comes out). Want to be able to turn all the eye candy on while maintaining good frame rates. Not looking to over-clock this particular system. Will also be used for Netflix, Youtube, etc. but those are secondary. I also want to include an optical drive for the (increasingly rare) times that I need to play one of those. (Yes, they are becoming obsolete, but would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it....)

Other Considerations: Size wise, the smaller the better, but doesn't have to be super tiny. A little extra volume in the interests of airflow and being able to fit decent components isn't a problem. I am also looking for something quiet, both in terms of the case itself and of the components inside.

Additionally, any advice about working in a smaller volume case appreciated.

Thanks.

I like the Ca$120 21.6-liter Silverstone Grandia GD05. It's the same size as a home theater receiver, making it larger than a console but still able to fit into your AV component stack. It can accommodate a micro-ATX motherboard (see the list that I posted in another thread), a full-size 5¼" Blu-ray drive, two 3½" hard-drives, a 2½" SSD, a regular ATX power supply, a full-height dual-slot graphics card up to 11" long and two more PCIe cards (e.g.: TV tuner, or even a second graphics card, which would be a terrible idea in an HTPC). No compromises are necessary, other than to stick to a CPU cooler that is no more than 70 mm tall (Scythe Big Shuriken 2.b, Cooler Master GeminII M4, Silverstone AR06, etc.) if you want to use the full-size optical drive. I recommend using HDMI audio through the graphics card to your home theater system or television rather than installing a sound card in your HTPC.

If you really want something closer in size to a console, the Ca$99 14-liter Silverstone RVZ01 uses a mini-ITX motherboard with a 90° PCIe riser card to accommodate a single 13" long dual-slot graphics card, but you cannot have any other expansion cards. This chassis also requires an SFX power supply and a notebook-style slim slot-loading Blu-ray drive.

Thanks - that gives me a lot of homework to do

Watch tonight's pod cast and something like the NUC featured

If it were me, I'd go with the Silverstone ML07. mITX mobo, but orients the GPU sideways to reduce vertical clearance.

***Also, the GD05 has clearance problems with the PCIe power connections for many high-end GPUs***

XBone Dimensions: 3.1" x 10.8" x 13.1"
ML07 Dimensions: 4.3" x 15.04" x 13.78"
GD05 Dimensions: 5.94" x 17.32" x 12.8"

Also, this SWEET(!!) Phanteks cooler will fit in the ML07 according to Silverstone's stated 83mm of clearance.

I'm using a nMedia HTPC7000B mATX case that supports full-height cards. It's solid, and reasonably inexpensive, and looks good in a home theater environment. I also bought the exterior LCD as it looks cool, like real stereo gear, and can be set up to report things like CPU usage and temperature.

http://www.nmediapc.com/htpc7000b.htm

From there, I'd choose a high-efficiency (gold or better) modular power supply in the 350-500w range. You don't need more than this, 350 would be plenty. Focus on cool and quiet, and modular cabling to make it easy.

I believe Gigabyte has a gaming microATX mainboard that's a lot less expensive than the ASUS GENE models, I'd probably look to them. Ah, here it is. I'd stick with onboard audio. You may not even use it, as you're using HDMI audio out.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... -_-Product

8GB of RAM will be enough for pretty much anything you'll do. I'd choose a stock Haswell Core i5, I wouldn't overclock it, so I wouldn't get the K version. The i5-4590 hits right about $200, but you could easily go with a lesser i5 and be fine. Scythe's Big Shuriken 2 Rev. B is the perfect cooler for this; low height, and quiet. I also know it fits in the nMedia case.

Finally, graphics. You're gaming at 1080p --I'd say the Geforce 750Ti 2GB would be inexpensive, and plenty fast, as well as running cool and quiet. ASUS and EVGA make some nice looking cards in that department.

If you need wireless, go with Intel's desktop wireless, they make several PCIe cards that work well.

Keyboards and controllers, I'll leave up to personal preference.

if it was me i'd go higher than a 750ti. you said max graphics and solid fps. I'd say 960 at the minimum

K-L-Waster wrote:

I want to completely demolish a PS4 or XB One gaming at 1080p on my existing HDTV and be able to turn all the eye candy on while maintaining good frame rates.

While I consider a GeForce GTX750Ti to be adequate for gaming at 1080p with some compromises, if you want excellent gaming performance with the eye candy at maximum and your budgets for watts and dollars both permit it, you probably want a better GPU.

Although the pace of improvement has slowed significantly in recent years. GPUs still improve faster than CPUs, motherboards, memory, cases and power supplies. Thus, you will probably replace your graphics card at least once during the life of your gaming PC. TSMC's current 28 nm fabrication process for GPUs has nearly reached the end of its run. When GPUs produced on newer chip fabrication processes arrive, there will be a step change in performance, power consumption and/or manufacturing cost.


How about some of these components for a micro-ATX build?
Ca$ 307 Intel Core i5 4690 quad-core 3.5 GHz (3.9 "turbo") Haswell LGA1150 processor with HSF
$ 0 included Intel heatsink and fan
Ca$ 110 -52 combo MSI H97M-G43 micro-ATX LGA1150 motherboard
Ca$ 95 2x4 GiB PC3-14900 Mushkin FrostByte-G3-R (DDR3-1866, CAS 9, 1.5 V) memory
Ca$ 240 Gigabyte GeForce GTX960 2GB
or Ca$ 270 -20MIR Gigabyte Radeon R9-285 2GB
or Ca$ 220 -20MIR Asus Radeon R9-270X 2GB
Ca$ 110 0.24 TB Kingston SSDNow V300 SSD
Ca$ 125 3.0 TB Toshiba DT01ACA300 7200 rpm hard drive
Ca$ 65 LG CH12NS3012X BD-ROM/DVD-RW
Ca$ 120 Silverstone Grandia GD05B micro-ATX case
Ca$ 73 SeaSonic M12II-520 (40 A @ +12 V, 80+ Bronze, Modular) ATX power supply
Ca$ 120 Microsoft Windows 8.1 64-bit OEM
That totals to under $1300, Canadian. It should provide a starting point from which to compromise to reduce the budget.

If you're set on the smaller mini-ITX form factor, you might substitute these parts:
Ca$ 139 Asus H97I-Plus mini-ITX LGA1150 motherboard
Ca$ 330 -30MIR XFX Radeon R9-290 4GB graphics card (11.6" long)
or Ca$ 240 -20MIR XFX Radeon R9-280 3GB (11.6" long)
or Ca$ 240 -30MIR XFX Radeon R9-280 3GB (11.6" long)
Ca$ 170 Silverstone slot-load slim Blu-ray burner
Ca$ 99 Silverstone Raven RVZ01 or Fortress FTZ01 or Ca$ 90 ML07 mini-ITX case with 90° PCIe riser
Ca$ 80 Silverstone ST45SF (36 A, 80+ Bronze) SFX power supply

The plus here is that you can install 13" long graphics cards in this case, including the very powerful Radeon R9-290 4GB, which seriously outclasses the GeForce GTX960 2GB that I suggested in the micro-ATX build to fit within the 11" limitation of the GD05 case. The first negative is that there is no room for an internal TV tuner card if you want your HTPC to double as a DVR. The second negative is that slim slot-load Blu-ray drives are rare and expensive. You may find a cheaper drive on Amazon, but you may need a slimline to desktop adapter for your SATA power and data connections.

Check TR review. The r9-285 is a better option then the GTX 960 at the moment.

Better idle power, usually faster, and about $40 cheaper. (~$170 nowdays on newegg)

While we in the U.S. can buy the Radeon R9-285 for US$30 less than the GeForce GTX960, our neighbors to the north appear to have a different price structure. I was trying to stick with the prices at NCIX.ca for consistency.

Wow - thanks for all the replies, folks. Especially to JustAnEngineer who by my count has put together 3 shopping lists already Definitely going above and beyond the call of duty on that score.

Since there is alot to take in here and I do have some questions, I'm going to try and organize this by component category so that the thread doesn't get too spaghettified.

Cases

1) A number of people have recommended mITX cases such as the Silverstone ML07, Silverstone Raven RVZ01 or Fortress FTZ01 or ML07 mini-ITX case with 90° PCIe riser. All of them look like cool cases, and in principle I think putting the graphics card on its side and saving a few centimeters of head room is a great idea. The one thing I feel cautious about is the riser card, since it seems like an additional point of failure. Anyone built a system using one of these? Are they reliable, or flaky? If they work well, this is an attractive layout as it saves some height.

2) In a related question, with slim cases like those above, how is the cooling? Do I need to restrict myself to low TDP graphics cards for example?

3) On the subject of larger cases:

DPete27 wrote:

...
***Also, the GD05 has clearance problems with the PCIe power connections for many high-end GPUs***
...

LoneWolf15 wrote:

I'm using a nMedia HTPC7000B mATX case that supports full-height cards. It's solid, and reasonably inexpensive, and looks good in a home theater environment. I also bought the exterior LCD as it looks cool, like real stereo gear, and can be set up to report things like CPU usage and temperature.

http://www.nmediapc.com/htpc7000b.htm
...

How problematic is the GD05 with tall cards? Are we talking "look for slim-line cards only"? Or just avoid cards that are taller than average? Also, a quick comparison of the GD05 with the HTPC7000B shows that the GD05 is a bit taller (by about 1 cm or thereabouts). Can anyone who has used the HTPC7000B comment on how well cards fit into it?

CPU Coolers

Various people have recommended the Scythe Big Shuriken 2.b, Cooler Master GeminII M4, Silverstone AR06, Phanteks cooler. However, I have seen in Newegg reviews that some users have had trouble getting these low profile coolers to fit in mITX builds with RAM that has tall spreaders.

This may be a concern in my case as one option I am looking at is cannibalizing some Corsair 1600 RAM from my existing desktop (I have 16GB in a 4x4GB configuration, and in retrospect it looks like that much RAM has been unneccessary - so splitting half of it to the HTPC would be a good idea overall, allowing me to leverage some sunk cost). You guessed it, though, the RAM has some of those unnecessary spreaders (my only defense is the price was good when I got them....)

So, for anyone who has used the coolers above in a mITX build, how is the clearance with the RAM? This is less of a problem if I go mATX because there are the 2 extra RAM slots, so if I only use one pair the clearance won't be a problem but with mITX they either fit or they don't in the 2 slots available.

K-L-Waster wrote:

A number of people have recommended mITX cases such as the Silverstone Raven RVZ01 mini-ITX case with 90° PCIe riser. Anyone built a system using one of these?

At least one forum gerbil has tried out this case design:
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=93447&hilit=rvz01&start=30#p1201717

Graphics Cards

This one is more of an existential dilemma than a question per se. Normally I tend to gravitate to NVidia cards... but OTOH, there are some positively screaming deals on R9 290 and 290X cards out there. (Seriously, AMD must be selling them at a loss at those price points - how can selling your flagship as a loss leader be good business? ) Sure, it's complete and utter overkill for 1080 gaming, but the value proposition is looking pretty good.

Of course, then there's the question of keeping a 290 fed with juice in an HTPC - seems it would need more power than an SFX power supply could deliver.

Hmmm.

K-L-Waster wrote:

There's the question of keeping a Radeon R9-290 fed with juice in an HTPC - seems it would need more power than an SFX power supply could deliver.

The Ca$ 175 Silverstone SX600-G is the most powerful SFX PSU that I have seen. 50 amperes on the +12 V rail is enough for all but the most power-hungry dual-GPU systems. Even with the 36 ampere rating on the reasonably-priced ST45SF, you should be okay for a single GPU unless you seriously overclock a Radeon R9-290, R9-290X or GeForce GTX780Ti.

Note that when TR reports power consumption in their graphics card reviews, they report power draw from the wall for the complete system. The power supply is rated by the amount of power that it provides. The draw from the wall includes the inefficiency of the power supply, so an example draw of 400 watts from the wall x 0.92 efficiency = 368 watts = 30.7 amperes on the +12 V rail.

K-L-Waster wrote:

Graphics Cards

This one is more of an existential dilemma than a question per se. Normally I tend to gravitate to NVidia cards... but OTOH, there are some positively screaming deals on R9 290 and 290X cards out there. (Seriously, AMD must be selling them at a loss at those price points - how can selling your flagship as a loss leader be good business? ) Sure, it's complete and utter overkill for 1080 gaming, but the value proposition is looking pretty good.

Of course, then there's the question of keeping a 290 fed with juice in an HTPC - seems it would need more power than an SFX power supply could deliver.

Hmmm.

I'm not sure what you can find up there in Canada, but a GTX 770 would be a good alternative to the 290 if you can find one at a good price.

DrDominodog51 wrote:

I'm not sure what you can find up there in Canada, but a GTX 770 would be a good alternative to the 290 if you can find one at a good price.

I disagree.
http://techreport.com/review/27702/nvid ... eviewed/12
http://techreport.com/review/27067/nvid ... eviewed/13
http://techreport.com/review/25611/nvid ... eviewed/12

JustAnEngineer wrote:

DrDominodog51 wrote:

I'm not sure what you can find up there in Canada, but a GTX 770 would be a good alternative to the 290 if you can find one at a good price.

I disagree.
http://techreport.com/review/27702/nvid ... eviewed/12
http://techreport.com/review/27067/nvid ... eviewed/13
http://techreport.com/review/25611/nvid ... eviewed/12

Yeah, basically where I am at is either a 290 / 290X for the raw power or a GTX 960 for the efficiency and peace and quiet (this is going in the living room, not a gamer cave, so noise levels matter).

JustAnEngineer wrote:

DrDominodog51 wrote:

I'm not sure what you can find up there in Canada, but a GTX 770 would be a good alternative to the 290 if you can find one at a good price.

I disagree.
http://techreport.com/review/27702/nvid ... eviewed/12
http://techreport.com/review/27067/nvid ... eviewed/13
http://techreport.com/review/25611/nvid ... eviewed/12

Fair enough. I was thinking more of the desire for a Nvidia, power consumption (in comparison to the 290), the fact that a 290 is way overkill for 1080, and a possibility of someone selling a refurbished or Open-Box 770. Your probably (most definitely, but my ego won't let me admit it ) correct about the GTX 960 or R9-290 being a better choice.

K-L-Waster wrote:

CPU Coolers

Various people have recommended the Scythe Big Shuriken 2.b, Cooler Master GeminII M4, Silverstone AR06, Phanteks cooler. However, I have seen in Newegg reviews that some users have had trouble getting these low profile coolers to fit in mITX builds with RAM that has tall spreaders.

This may be a concern in my case as one option I am looking at is cannibalizing some Corsair 1600 RAM from my existing desktop (I have 16GB in a 4x4GB configuration, and in retrospect it looks like that much RAM has been unneccessary - so splitting half of it to the HTPC would be a good idea overall, allowing me to leverage some sunk cost). You guessed it, though, the RAM has some of those unnecessary spreaders (my only defense is the price was good when I got them....)

So, for anyone who has used the coolers above in a mITX build, how is the clearance with the RAM? This is less of a problem if I go mATX because there are the 2 extra RAM slots, so if I only use one pair the clearance won't be a problem but with mITX they either fit or they don't in the 2 slots available.

I actually own the Big Shuriken 2 rev.B for my HTPC. I have used it in an mATX setup. It has clearance for all four memory sockets, provided you don't use RAM with massive heatsinks like G.Skill RipJaws or Corsair Dominators. That said, mounting it with RAM installed is a painstaking process that takes a fair amount of patience. I'm currently using two standard-height (not low-profile, but no large heatsinks) 2GB DDR3 modules right now because it's enough for a media center, but I could load all four sockets if I wanted to.

Hopefully the information that it will work with four memory sockets in mATX will be an indicator that it should work with two in an mITX setup.

LoneWolf15 wrote:

K-L-Waster wrote:

CPU Coolers

Various people have recommended the Scythe Big Shuriken 2.b, Cooler Master GeminII M4, Silverstone AR06, Phanteks cooler. However, I have seen in Newegg reviews that some users have had trouble getting these low profile coolers to fit in mITX builds with RAM that has tall spreaders.

This may be a concern in my case as one option I am looking at is cannibalizing some Corsair 1600 RAM from my existing desktop (I have 16GB in a 4x4GB configuration, and in retrospect it looks like that much RAM has been unneccessary - so splitting half of it to the HTPC would be a good idea overall, allowing me to leverage some sunk cost). You guessed it, though, the RAM has some of those unnecessary spreaders (my only defense is the price was good when I got them....)

So, for anyone who has used the coolers above in a mITX build, how is the clearance with the RAM? This is less of a problem if I go mATX because there are the 2 extra RAM slots, so if I only use one pair the clearance won't be a problem but with mITX they either fit or they don't in the 2 slots available.

I actually own the Big Shuriken 2 rev.B for my HTPC. I have used it in an mATX setup. It has clearance for all four memory sockets, provided you don't use RAM with massive heatsinks like G.Skill RipJaws or Corsair Dominators. That said, mounting it with RAM installed is a painstaking process that takes a fair amount of patience. I'm currently using two standard-height (not low-profile, but no large heatsinks) 2GB DDR3 modules right now because it's enough for a media center, but I could load all four sockets if I wanted to.

Hopefully the information that it will work with four memory sockets in mATX will be an indicator that it should work with two in an mITX setup.

Thanks - useful to know.

if you grab a quality 290 noise won't be a problem. I literally can't hear mine.
I don't think it's overkill for 1080p either. Lots of games can still punish it, and it'll only get older.

sweatshopking wrote:

if you grab a quality 290 noise won't be a problem. I literally can't hear mine.
I don't think it's overkill for 1080p either. Lots of games can still punish it, and it'll only get older.

Which brand and model did you end up getting, if you don't mind my asking?

the GD05: it appears Chrispy is having problems with almost any medium-high end card that has PCIe power on the "top" side (which is common location). As stated, he's already using "low-profile" PCIe power cables. I did however list a few med-high end GPUs that have PCIe power out the back. A sideways GPU orientation like the Raven or ML07 would seem to give you more flexibility with high-end cards though.

CPU coolers: RAM with tall heat spreaders always have the potential to cause problems. I always recommend buying either low-profile DIMMs or ones with heatspreaders that don't stick up [too far] past the top of the PCB. All heatsinks are at least designed to accommodate "standard height" RAM. Do you have Corsair Vengeance RAM?

GPU choice/case cooling: For SFF systems, lower power components is always a good idea. This may mean you need to focus more on performance/watt than performance/$. Some even say that a blower-style cooler is best for SFF cases because it exhausts hot air directly outside the case. The lower power (hence lower heat generation) GTX 960 would be a smart choice for a SFF case. Not saying the Raven or ML07 can't handle a 290/290x, thermal capabilities of cases is NOT solely dependent on volume. Also, the 290/290x are overkill for 1080p gaming.

DPete27 wrote:

the GD05: it appears Chrispy is having problems with almost any medium-high end card that has PCIe power on the "top" side (which is common location). As stated, he's already using "low-profile" PCIe power cables. I did however list a few med-high end GPUs that have PCIe power out the back. A sideways GPU orientation like the Raven or ML07 would seem to give you more flexibility with high-end cards though.

Yeah, I've been seeing the same when comparing the height of the GD05 and the various cards out there. There are a handful of cards with backward facing power inputs as you say, but they aren't usually the best-in-class cards.

DPete27 wrote:

CPU coolers: RAM with tall heat spreaders always have the potential to cause problems. I always recommend buying either low-profile DIMMs or ones with heatspreaders that don't stick up [too far] past the top of the PCB. All heatsinks are at least designed to accommodate "standard height" RAM. Do you have Corsair Vengeance RAM?

Yep, Corsair Vengeance -- and not the Low Profile model either . I'll probably end up getting some standard height ram for the system - I was looking at this http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231645.

DPete27 wrote:

GPU choice/case cooling: For SFF systems, lower power components is always a good idea. This may mean you need to focus more on performance/watt than performance/$. Some even say that a blower-style cooler is best for SFF cases because it exhausts hot air directly outside the case. The lower power (hence lower heat generation) GTX 960 would be a smart choice for a SFF case. Not saying the Raven or ML07 can't handle a 290/290x, thermal capabilities of cases is NOT solely dependent on volume. Also, the 290/290x are overkill for 1080p gaming.

Thanks. I'm edging towards a Silverstone ML07 build - it does end up a little more expensive, so still considering where to shave some pennies.

DPete27 wrote:

RAM with tall heat spreaders {is goofy.}

K-L-Waster wrote:

I'll probably end up getting some standard height ram for the system - I was looking at this
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231645

The timing on that memory is quite slow (11 cycles). Let's find you some better memory from this list.
Ca$ 91 2x4 GiB PC3-12800 Mushkin 996995S (DDR3-1600, CAS 9, 1.5 V)
Ca$ 91 2x4 GiB PC3-12800 G.Skill F3-1600C9D-8GAO (DDR3-1600, CAS 9, 1.5 V)
Ca$ 91 2x4 GiB PC3-12800 Mushkin 997002 (DDR3-1600, CAS 9, 1.5 V)
Ca$ 91 2x4 GiB PC3-12800 GEiL GEL38GB1600C9DC (DDR3-1600, CAS 9, 1.5 V)
Ca$ 96 2x4 GiB PC3-12800 Corsair CML8GX3M2A1600C9 (DDR3-1600, CAS 9, 1.5 V)
Ca$ 96 2x4 GiB PC3-12800 Crucial BLS2KIT4G3D1609DS1S00 (DDR3-1600, CAS 9, 1.5 V)

Ca$ 99 2x4 GiB PC3-14900 G.Skill F3-1866C9D-8GAB (DDR3-1866, CAS 9, 1.5 V)

JustAnEngineer wrote:

DPete27 wrote:

RAM with tall heat spreaders {is goofy.}

K-L-Waster wrote:

I'll probably end up getting some standard height ram for the system - I was looking at this
http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231645

The timing on that memory is quite slow (11 cycles). Let's find you some better memory from this list.
Ca$ 91 2x4 GiB PC3-12800 Mushkin 996995S (DDR3-1600, CAS 9, 1.5 V)
Ca$ 91 2x4 GiB PC3-12800 G.Skill F3-1600C9D-8GAO (DDR3-1600, CAS 9, 1.5 V)
Ca$ 91 2x4 GiB PC3-12800 Mushkin 997002 (DDR3-1600, CAS 9, 1.5 V)
Ca$ 91 2x4 GiB PC3-12800 GEiL GEL38GB1600C9DC (DDR3-1600, CAS 9, 1.5 V)
Ca$ 96 2x4 GiB PC3-12800 Corsair CML8GX3M2A1600C9 (DDR3-1600, CAS 9, 1.5 V)
Ca$ 96 2x4 GiB PC3-12800 Crucial BLS2KIT4G3D1609DS1S00 (DDR3-1600, CAS 9, 1.5 V)

Ca$ 99 2x4 GiB PC3-14900 G.Skill F3-1866C9D-8GAB (DDR3-1866, CAS 9, 1.5 V)

Awesome - thanks once again. The Mushkin Silverlines look like a good fit.

8GB Kingston 1866 CL10 = $88
Gigabyte mITX GTX 960 = $240 (The ML07 will take GPUs up to 13" long, this was just the cheapest.)
SIlverstone ML07 = $90 + S&H or $95 w/ shipping at newegg.
AsRock H97M miTX w/ AC Wifi = $114
i5-4460 = $227
Silverstone 450W modular SFX = $105

That's $860 for a pretty gnarly system.