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maxxcool
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:01 am

Glorious wrote:
maxxcool wrote:
(1) Given my long history with AMD cpus in my lab,  'Seeing' with 80$+ coolers is indicative of the characteristics of a particular process and the ability to 'give up heat' .. and the past ratings were quite optimistic at best under sustained 100% load for weeks on end for my work.


The ratings are for wattage, not temperature: TDP specifies the maximal amount of power the chip will consume, not the temperature it is while doing it. The manufacturers do not "optimistically" rate the temperature these things will run at, no, they specify an operating temperature range the device must stay within in order to properly function. As it is range, it has a lower and higher bound, so if your ambient is Antarctica or Death Valley you're probably violating it either way before you even switch the power on.

Thus whatever it is you are saying is, at best, not even wrong.

maxxcool wrote:
(2) Not yet, that is why I said we have to 'wait and see'


If you were saying anything intelligible at all, you just said in 1) that the TDP is "optimistic". So that's contradictory.

And, if we ignore that, so what? They *might* eventually just make it up? Well, dude, they *might* sell me a two-decade old Cyrix chip in that Zen box, they *might* sell me cow chips (kinda like what you're trying to sell me on now!), etc...

maxxcool wrote:
(3) And we will have to wait and see..


I don't have to "wait and see" in order to understand that you are completely talking out of your posterior, and neither does anyone else. You're just running your mouth and spewing nonsense.

DPete27 wrote:
Let's not forget that historically AMD has had a tendency to underestimate their TDP.  Whereas Intel's TDP numbers typically track fairly close to power draw, it's difficult to explain why (for example) the FX8370 draws 61W more than the i7-6700K despite a TDP difference of 34W.  I have a hard time believing that the AM3+ platform power usage is responsible for ALL of that additional 27W power draw.


Not really difficult at all, actually: different chipsets (990FX is like 20W TDP, Z170 is 6w), different boards (most power is consumed by the VRM setup, so even minor differences in component choice there can add up, and that additional space between feeding 91w and 125w adds up, especially since it's always an efficency curve) plus speedy DDR3 at 1.5v versus normal-speed DDR4 at 1.2v (that can potentially be  5-10 watts at load, just right there). The differences add up.

AMD's TDP definition isn't exactly the same as Intel's. Yes, it's looser. But it's not THAT loose, and it really can't be: OEMs with real engineers who design stock systems rely on the same number to come up with adequate but cost-conscious cooling systems. The margins are razor thin, particularly on what are effectively "budgetish" parts, so they'd be screaming bloody murder if AMD was reliably under-estimating by a 25%.

And, on the other side, why would AMD publish those jokes at 220w a couple of years ago if the numbers were so flexible? Why not 200? or 175?

LOL ..
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:01 am

DrDominodog51 wrote:
Keep in mind the 9* W TDP of the 6700k includes the iGPU.

Keep in mind Intel CPUs can boost, so the additional headroom can be used by the CPU cores when the GPU is disabled or idle.

Either Intel is using the TDP as a maximum and staying below it for the most part, or AMD has weaker power-saving tech that keeps them closer to max draw all the time. Maybe a little of both.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:12 am

maxxcool wrote:
LOL ..


Why even bother posting if you're going to act like that?

TheRazorsEdge wrote:
Keep in mind Intel CPUs can boost, so the additional headroom can be used by the CPU cores when the GPU is disabled or idle.


It's not that simple and not in this case anyway: the i7-6700k only has 200mhz turbo boost with a single active core.

All cores at load (or even two), and you're still at stock.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:20 am

Glorious wrote:
maxxcool wrote:
LOL ..


Why even bother posting if you're going to act like that?

TheRazorsEdge wrote:
Keep in mind Intel CPUs can boost, so the additional headroom can be used by the CPU cores when the GPU is disabled or idle.


It's not that simple and not in this case anyway: the i7-6700k only has 200mhz turbo boost with a single active core.

All cores at load (or even two), and you're still at stock.

your sudden level of anger and attack amuses me..
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:40 am

maxxcool wrote:
your sudden level of anger and attack amuses me..


So this is the thing where you post some nonsense that gets torn apart and then you attempt to psychologically save face by pretending you are above it all?

Like, "I don't have any facts but I *do* have a facile mechanism for emotional displacement?"

I'd ask how old you were, but evidently you've been here for as long as I have. Ouch.

---

Let's get back to what you said: Do you have any actual basis for suggesting that AMD's processors routinely violate their TDP?
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:13 pm

Why on earth would you want to use a 16-thread low-clock CPU in a SFF gaming system?  Games love high IPC and high clocks while multithreading poorly, so many of those 16 threads are wasted die space and power budget.  4-Core Zen will likely be much better for gaming (higher clocks), and 4-Core Intel is sure to be the very best.
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:31 pm

Kretschmer wrote:
Why on earth would you want to use a 16-thread low-clock CPU in a SFF gaming system?

It's something interesting for OP and others to chat about?

The fact that no-one says that they have done it is telling, if it were a good idea many people would have been building 16T gaming systems and boasting about it for nearly 7 years...
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whm1974
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:52 pm

Topinio wrote:
Kretschmer wrote:
Why on earth would you want to use a 16-thread low-clock CPU in a SFF gaming system?

It's something interesting for OP and others to chat about?

The fact that no-one says that they have done it is telling, if it were a good idea many people would have been building 16T gaming systems and boasting about it for nearly 7 years...

How many people will be willing to spend $1000+ just on the CPU just for bragging rights?
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:54 pm

Glorious wrote:
maxxcool wrote:
your sudden level of anger and attack amuses me..


So this is the thing where you post some nonsense that gets torn apart and then you attempt to psychologically save face by pretending you are above it all?

Like, "I don't have any facts but I *do* have a facile mechanism for emotional displacement?"

I'd ask how old you were, but evidently you've been here for as long as I have. Ouch.

---

Let's get back to what you said: Do you have any actual basis for suggesting that AMD's processors routinely violate their TDP?

Maybe he's a Toys-R-Us kid?

Re: SFF PCs - My understanding is that SFFs are what water cooling was made for, since in many cases it doesn't outperform good air cooling except in size? 
Please correct me if I'm wrong on that; although I've read plenty of reviews I don't have anything water-cooled myself.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:03 pm

Glorious wrote:
maxxcool wrote:
your sudden level of anger and attack amuses me..


So this is the thing where you post some nonsense that gets torn apart and then you attempt to psychologically save face by pretending you are above it all?

Like, "I don't have any facts but I *do* have a facile mechanism for emotional displacement?"

I'd ask how old you were, but evidently you've been here for as long as I have. Ouch.

---

Let's get back to what you said: Do you have any actual basis for suggesting that AMD's processors routinely violate their TDP?

You sound exactly like Auxy ..
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:14 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
Re: SFF PCs - My understanding is that SFFs are what water cooling was made for, since in many cases it doesn't outperform good air cooling except in size? 
Please correct me if I'm wrong on that; although I've read plenty of reviews I don't have anything water-cooled myself.

The only thing you're really changing with watercooling is the medium for heat exchange.  You're using water to "carry" the heat away from the components instead of air.  Water is a better conductor, but if the cooling setup is inefficient for some reason and doesn't do a great job of releasing the heat it absorbs, then you're not going to see much of a difference.  The reason watercooling and SFF systems often go together is that it allows you to concentrate the surface area you need for heat exchange at the radiator.
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:14 pm

Gonna take that as a no...
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:14 pm

whm1974 wrote:
How many people will be willing to spend $1000+ just on the CPU just for bragging rights?

Some. Fact is, none of those would buy a 16T one for gaming. Could be done, but isn't.
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:18 pm

maxxcool wrote:
You sound exactly like Auxy ..

That's a bit harsh (and close to rule 2).

[I miss auxy.]
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Glorious
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:19 pm

Glorious wrote:
Let's get back to what you said: Do you have any actual basis for suggesting that AMD's processors routinely violate their TDP?

maxxcool wrote:
You sound exactly like Auxy ..


Funny. You sound like someone who obviously doesn't have an answer to my question.

Which is odd, right? Didn't you talk about your AMD CPU "lab" before? I would think you would have all sorts of data relating to the TDP of AMD's CPUs.

Or do you just run weird ad hominem tests to see which poster I sound like?

:roll:

---

Seriously. We're on posting round 3 now. Do you want to talk about processor/system power consumption, or do you want to just talk about me some more?

If the latter, let this be our final battle?
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:23 pm

Glorious wrote:
Glorious wrote:
Let's get back to what you said: Do you have any actual basis for suggesting that AMD's processors routinely violate their TDP?

maxxcool wrote:
You sound exactly like Auxy ..


Funny. You sound like someone who obviously doesn't have an answer to my question.

Which is odd, right? Didn't you talk about your AMD CPU "lab" before? I would think you would have all sorts of data relating to the TDP of AMD's CPUs.

Or do you just run weird ad hominem tests to see which poster I sound like?

:roll:

---

Seriously. We're on posting round 3 now. Do you want to talk about processor/system power consumption, or do you want to just talk about me some more?

If the latter, let this be our final battle?

Not really,  you decided to be personal about it and snide.  No point in any discussion.
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:24 pm

OK then I'll ask. What proof do you have that AMD CPUs go beyond their specified TDP?
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whm1974
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:28 pm

maxxcool wrote:
Glorious wrote:
Glorious wrote:
Let's get back to what you said: Do you have any actual basis for suggesting that AMD's processors routinely violate their TDP?

maxxcool wrote:
You sound exactly like Auxy ..


Funny. You sound like someone who obviously doesn't have an answer to my question.

Which is odd, right? Didn't you talk about your AMD CPU "lab" before? I would think you would have all sorts of data relating to the TDP of AMD's CPUs.

Or do you just run weird ad hominem tests to see which poster I sound like?

:roll:

---

Seriously. We're on posting round 3 now. Do you want to talk about processor/system power consumption, or do you want to just talk about me some more?

If the latter, let this be our final battle?

Not really,  you decided to be personal about it and snide.  No point in any discussion.

GUYS!!! GUYS!!! Can we get back to the topic at hand please? I just think it will be really neat to even be able to put a 8c/16t CPU in a SFF slim case.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:31 pm

whm1974 wrote:
GUYS!!! GUYS!!! Can we get back to the topic at hand please? I just think it will be really neat to even be able to put a 8c/16t CPU in a SFF slim case.

Can't we find out right now? 

IIRC there's a 2011 Mini-ITX motherboard (two, actually) and a Intel Xeon E5-2660 on NewEgg right now. 8-core (16 with HT) and only 95 Watts, in theory it should be coolable. Interestingly, I've got a 4-core POS Sandy Bridge-E processor in my PC right now, I should be able to upgrade it... hmm..
Last edited by Vhalidictes on Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:32 pm

maxxcool wrote:
Not really, you decided to be personal about it and snide. No point in any discussion.


Oh, that's what *I* did?

The last 4 of your posts have consisted of nothing but of personal attacks on me. :roll:

Whereas I'm actually interested in the discussion about whether or not AMD's CPUs violate their TDPs, because, as I said, their definition of TDP is slightly looser than Intel's, and I'm wondering if there is any evidence as to whether or not there is a practical reason for that.

Indeed, that's why, in the midst of your incessant personally-based whining, I've actually discussed that matter with two other posters completely civilly.

You know, with evidence, citations, reasons, and arguments. :wink:

You should try it. It's much better than this pointless one-line sniping of yours.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:33 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
OK then I'll ask. What proof do you have that AMD CPUs go beyond their specified TDP?

Well, I REALLY don't want to continue this discussion any further as the point of it has been lost. But since your a forum admin I feel forced to comply.

As in post #1,  part#1.  TDP per wiki is a heat rating.  After 2006 it gets murky.  But AMD stuck to it.  Regardless point#1 is I ran,  as I have noted several times in the past, 5 Thuban systems that would throttle with the OEM heatsink immediately.  And would throttle with decent 'for the day' Cooler Master cooling towers under load here at the office.    

Is it scientific .. nope.  but it is reality I dealt with until I replace them all with DC silicon.  AMD throttled in a 72f office all day long with then 'better end' cooling solutions let alone the 'rated' cooler on hand in the box.

Edit formatting .. for some reason it blobbed my reply to DR-F
Last edited by maxxcool on Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cybert said: Capitlization and periods are hard for you, aren't they? I've given over $100 to techforums. I should have you banned for my money.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:34 pm

whm1974 wrote:
I just think it will be really neat to even be able to put a 8c/16t CPU in a SFF slim case.


http://techreport.com/news/28029/broadw ... itx-boards
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:35 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
GUYS!!! GUYS!!! Can we get back to the topic at hand please? I just think it will be really neat to even be able to put a 8c/16t CPU in a SFF slim case.

Can't we find out right now? 

IIRC there's a 2011 Mini-ITX motherboard (two, actually) and a Intel Xeon E5-2660 on NewEgg right now. 8-core (16 with HT) and only 95 Watts, in theory it should be coolable. Interestingly, I've got a 4-core POS Sandy Bridge-E processor in my PC right now, I should be able to upgrade it... hmm..

How much are the board and Xeon CPU?
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:37 pm

maxxcool wrote:
derFunkenstein wrote:
OK then I'll ask. What proof do you have that AMD CPUs go beyond their specified TDP?

Well, I REALLY don't want to continue this discussion any further as the point of it has been lost. But since your a forum admin I feel forced to comply.

As in post #1,  part#1.  TDP per wiki is a heat rating.  After 2006 it gets murky.  But AMD stuck to it.  Regardless point#1 is I ran,  as I have noted several times in the past, 5 Thuban systems that would throttle with the OEM heatsink immediately.  And would throttle with decent 'for the day' Cooler Master cooling towers under load here at the office.    

Is it scientific .. nope.  but it is reality I dealt with until I replace them all with DC silicon.  AMD throttled in a 72f office all day long with then 'better end' cooling solutions let alone the 'rated' cooler on hand in the box.

Edit formatting .. for some reason it blobbed my reply to DR-F

That's kind of odd in my personal experience. Were they 100% loaded? You mentioned something about that in a earlier post, and the TDP numbers might not make sense in a "power virus" situation. 

Heck, Intel CPUs sometimes blow out their TDP during my stability tests, although my room is typically 26C/80F baseline.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:38 pm

Glorious wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
I just think it will be really neat to even be able to put a 8c/16t CPU in a SFF slim case.


http://techreport.com/news/28029/broadw ... itx-boards

Yeah but the 8c/16t Zen is going to be a lot cheaper.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:39 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
maxxcool wrote:
derFunkenstein wrote:
OK then I'll ask. What proof do you have that AMD CPUs go beyond their specified TDP?

Well, I REALLY don't want to continue this discussion any further as the point of it has been lost. But since your a forum admin I feel forced to comply.

As in post #1,  part#1.  TDP per wiki is a heat rating.  After 2006 it gets murky.  But AMD stuck to it.  Regardless point#1 is I ran,  as I have noted several times in the past, 5 Thuban systems that would throttle with the OEM heatsink immediately.  And would throttle with decent 'for the day' Cooler Master cooling towers under load here at the office.    

Is it scientific .. nope.  but it is reality I dealt with until I replace them all with DC silicon.  AMD throttled in a 72f office all day long with then 'better end' cooling solutions let alone the 'rated' cooler on hand in the box.

Edit formatting .. for some reason it blobbed my reply to DR-F

That's kind of odd in my personal experience. Were they 100% loaded? You mentioned something about that in a earlier post, and the TDP numbers might not make sense in a "power virus" situation. 

Heck, Intel CPUs sometimes blow out their TDP during my stability tests, although my room is typically 26C/80F baseline.

Large scale hashing.  All six cores would be performing hashing on drive array's for days at a time on each device.  
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:40 pm

whm1974 wrote:
Glorious wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
I just think it will be really neat to even be able to put a 8c/16t CPU in a SFF slim case.


http://techreport.com/news/28029/broadw ... itx-boards

Yeah but the 8c/16t Zen is going to be a lot cheaper.

I know it sounds strange to put it this way, but I kind of hope that the performance is good enough that it isn't cheaper.

Then again, pretty much no matter what it will be worth getting if it's comparable to Ivy Bridge-E.

I'm not buying Intel CPUs because I want to; I'm buying Intel CPUs because the performance gulf can't be bridged.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:46 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Glorious wrote:

Yeah but the 8c/16t Zen is going to be a lot cheaper.

I know it sounds strange to put it this way, but I kind of hope that the performance is good enough that it isn't cheaper.

Then again, pretty much no matter what it will be worth getting if it's comparable to Ivy Bridge-E.

I'm not buying Intel CPUs because I want to; I'm buying Intel CPUs because the performance gulf can't be bridged.

Yeah that does make sense.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:48 pm

maxxcool wrote:
As in post #1, part#1. TDP per wiki is a heat rating.


No.

Wikipedia wrote:
The thermal design power (TDP), sometimes called thermal design point, is the maximum amount of heat generated by a computer chip or component (often the CPU or GPU) that the cooling system in a computer is designed to dissipate in typical operation


A "heat rating" would imply it's how much heat the device could sustain. Not that "heat rating" is any sort of commonly understood term, though.

maxxcool wrote:
After 2006 it gets murky. But AMD stuck to it.


"Murky" as in you didn't read the footnote to that one line in the wikipedia article, nor do you understand the overall context?

maxxcool wrote:
Regardless point#1 is I ran, as I have noted several times in the past, 5 Thuban systems that would throttle with the OEM heatsink immediately. And would throttle with decent 'for the day' Cooler Master cooling towers under load here at the office.


Yes. Regardless indeed.

Not only is this not any sort of anything, it's also about a processor released by AMD over 6 years ago.

maxxcool wrote:
Is it scientific .. nope. but it is reality I dealt with until I replace them all with DC silicon. AMD throttled in a 72f office all day long with then 'better end' cooling solutions let alone the 'rated' cooler on hand in the box.


You're not even pretending to have measured or even considered the power consumption, are you?

maxxcool wrote:
Large scale hashing. All six cores would be performing hashing on drive array's for days at a time on each device.


....what? And you're telling me you were actually CPU-bound? Or that this scenario makes some sort of sense? What on earth where you hashing, why/what/huh?

Try again?
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:53 pm

Semi-Relevant Story Time: 

So, a year ago I doubled my Skyrim framerate with the same video card (a AMD 6870) and memory (2*Mushkin 8GB 1333MHz modules, I believe). I "upgraded" from a AMD Athlon X4 860K running at 4.2GHz to a Intel Celeron G550 (dual-core 2.6GHz).

A processor with almost no cache, running at almost half the speed, and without either half the cores or HT (depending on how you look at modules), doubled my performance in single-threaded gaming. I still can't believe that and I saw it myself.
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