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Glorious
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:24 am

maxxcool wrote:
recovering "samples", that's as close as I can word it ... yes we touched the files in many cases.


Forensics technicians don't do that. This is make-believe.

DancinJack wrote:
Why on Earth would you not be using Xeons for that type of work? Consumer level hardware for that kind of stuff is just foolish.


Because he's making it all up.

People involved in civil/criminal investigations don't do what he's describing, because it contravenes the Federal Rules of Evidence (and thus probably all/majority of the state jurisdictions too).

JBI wrote:
Sometimes in the real world there are cost constraints...


Perhaps, but I know about the kind of "job" that he only thinks he is describing, and he's still wrong.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:25 am

just brew it! wrote:
Sometimes in the real world there are cost constraints...

Damn bean counters...
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:25 am

DancinJack wrote:
Why on Earth would you not be using Xeons for that type of work?  Consumer level hardware for that kind of stuff is just foolish.

It was a work around to budget issues of that management era.   The ESXi farm we had then was overutlized,  So I cheated and bought my own hardware using my own bonuses and gave hardware ownership to the company and offloaded my work there.  

I reinvested into my job,  and was able to do it with less resource conflicts.. it was a win in my book. And once properly cooled it ran that way for I dunno,  4-5 years?  
Last edited by maxxcool on Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:26 am

Glorious wrote:
maxxcool wrote:
recovering "samples", that's as close as I can word it ... yes we touched the files in many cases.  


Forensics technicians don't do that. This is make-believe.

DancinJack wrote:
Why on Earth would you not be using Xeons for that type of work? Consumer level hardware for that kind of stuff is just foolish.


Because he's making it all up.

People involved in civil/criminal investigations don't do what he's describing, because it contravenes the Federal Rules of Evidence (and thus probably all/majority of the state jurisdictions too).

JBI wrote:
Sometimes in the real world there are cost constraints...


Perhaps, but I know about the kind of "job" that he only thinks he is describing, and he's still wrong.

LOL I did not say "forensics" we were not interested in where 'stuff came from' ... only if it was there and was it recoverable with effort to cost weighed.

edit: do to did :P
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:33 am

maxxcool wrote:
It was a work around to budget issues of that management era. The ESXi farm we had then was overutlized, So I cheated and bought my own hardware using my own bonuses and gave hardware ownership to the company and offloaded my work there.


Cool story, bro.

maxxcool wrote:
I reinvested into my job, and was able to do it with less resource conflicts.. it was a win in my book.


You spent your own money to buy tools you then donated to your company?

Do you decline raises too?

maxxcool wrote:
LOL I do not say "forensics" we were not interested in where 'stuff came from'


No, of course you didn't say. Like all BSers you keep your claims extremely vague and amorphous, because every time your firm up your claims even a little bit they just sound even more ridiculous.

maxxcool wrote:
only if it was there and was it recoverable with effort to cost weighed.


Oh, ok, so now you are CPU-bound doing data-recovery?

What "Try again" round are we on now? Four?
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:38 am

Glorious wrote:
maxxcool wrote:
It was a work around to budget issues of that management era.   The ESXi farm we had then was overutlized,  So I cheated and bought my own hardware using my own bonuses and gave hardware ownership to the company and offloaded my work there.  


Cool story, bro.

maxxcool wrote:
I reinvested into my job,  and was able to do it with less resource conflicts.. it was a win in my book.


You spent your own money to buy tools you then donated to your company?

Do you decline raises too?

maxxcool wrote:
LOL I do not say "forensics" we were not interested in where 'stuff came from'


No, of course you didn't say. Like all BSers you keep your claims extremely vague and amorphous, because every time your firm up your claims even a little bit they just sound even more ridiculous.

maxxcool wrote:
only if it was there and was it recoverable with effort to cost weighed.


Oh, ok, so now you are CPU-bound doing data-recovery?

What "Try again" round are we on now? Four?

Sigh.. Not much more I can say.  Your at the watering hole.. if you haven't guessed what we were collecting (not Pokemon!) I cant help you any further.  
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:43 am

maxxcool wrote:
Sigh.. Not much more I can say.  Your at the watering hole.. if you haven't guessed what we were collecting (not Pokemon!) I cant help you any further.  

Ah, Bitcoin back when one could still profitably mine it with consumer-grade hardware.

As for the TDP issue, Bitcoin mining would certainly result in continuous 100% CPU load. While the CPUs themselves were likely within their stated TDP limits, their stock HSFs weren't rated to shed 100% CPU load on a 100% duty cycle. That's where the bean counters' choices came into play.
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:45 am

Captain Ned wrote:
maxxcool wrote:
Sigh.. Not much more I can say.  Your at the watering hole.. if you haven't guessed what we were collecting (not Pokemon!) I cant help you any further.  

Ah, Bitcoin back when one could still profitably mine it with consumer-grade hardware.

As for the TDP issue, Bitcoin mining would certainly result in continuous 100% CPU load.  While the CPUs themselves were likely within their stated TDP limits, their stock HSFs weren't rated to shed 100% CPU load on a 100% duty cycle.  That's where the bean counters' choices came into play.

God I WISH it it was bitcoins.. back then CPU power was all you needed ... to be honest I did not think that whole thing would amount to anything and ignored it.  woops...
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:52 am

maxxcool wrote:
Not much more I can say


Sure. You work for the CIA too, right? And so it's top-secret or something?

maxxcool wrote:
Your at the watering hole.. if you haven't guessed what we were collecting (not Pokemon!) I cant help you any further.


If you were doing data recovery, this is ridiculous.

But that's such a huge secret & sensitive field ( :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: ) that I can understand why you can't talk about it.

Oh, it's not that? Something else, known only to you?

Yup. Sure. Enjoy being an international man of (made-up) mystery, but please refrain from making silly technical claims in the future then. If you can't say (LOL), fine, don't say.

Captain Ned wrote:
Ah, Bitcoin back when one could still profitably mine it with consumer-grade hardware.


Nah, too much file stuff.

Don't encourage him, he's already excited that he's turned his ignorant FUD about AMD's TDP into this new (and even MORE annoying) "I'm SO mysterious and cool and do stuff you don't know but I do!" schtick.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:02 pm

Glorious wrote:
maxxcool wrote:
Not much more I can say


Sure. You work for the CIA too, right? And so it's top-secret or something?

maxxcool wrote:
Your at the watering hole.. if you haven't guessed what we were collecting (not Pokemon!) I cant help you any further.


If you were doing data recovery, this is ridiculous.

But that's such a huge secret & sensitive field (  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll: ) that I can understand why you can't talk about it.

Oh, it's not that? Something else, known only to you?

Yup. Sure. Enjoy being an international man of (made-up) mystery, but please refrain from making silly technical claims in the future then. If you can't say (LOL), fine, don't say.

Captain Ned wrote:
Ah, Bitcoin back when one could still profitably mine it with consumer-grade hardware.


Nah, too much file stuff.

Don't encourage him, he's already excited that he's turned his ignorant FUD about AMD's TDP into this new (and even MORE annoying) "I'm SO mysterious and cool and do stuff you don't know but I do!" schtick.

If I was only a man of mystery, please. What I did was hours of boring..

Back on topic,  AMD 8c/16th cpu in a minimal space is still questionable,  we need to see the actual real deal in the future to know for sure but high end-gaming with a SFF rig, or folding is questionable.  It depends a ton on implementation and ability to remove heat from the case.. but I suspect throttling will still be a issue if one expects the cpu to maintain its highest turbo clock speed.. 

edit, spelling .. 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:08 pm

maxxcool wrote:
Glorious wrote:
maxxcool wrote:
Not much more I can say


Sure. You work for the CIA too, right? And so it's top-secret or something?

maxxcool wrote:
Your at the watering hole.. if you haven't guessed what we were collecting (not Pokemon!) I cant help you any further.


If you were doing data recovery, this is ridiculous.

But that's such a huge secret & sensitive field (  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll: ) that I can understand why you can't talk about it.

Oh, it's not that? Something else, known only to you?

Yup. Sure. Enjoy being an international man of (made-up) mystery, but please refrain from making silly technical claims in the future then. If you can't say (LOL), fine, don't say.

Captain Ned wrote:
Ah, Bitcoin back when one could still profitably mine it with consumer-grade hardware.


Nah, too much file stuff.

Don't encourage him, he's already excited that he's turned his ignorant FUD about AMD's TDP into this new (and even MORE annoying) "I'm SO mysterious and cool and do stuff you don't know but I do!" schtick.

If I was only a man of mystery, please. What I did was hours of boring..

Back on topic,  AMD 8c/16th cpu in a minimal space is still questionable,  we need to see the actual real deal in the future to know for sure but high end-gaming with a SFF rig, or folding is questionable.  It depends a ton on implementation and ability to remove heat from the case.. but I suspect throttling will still be a issue if one expects the cpu to maintain its highest turbo clock speed.. 

edit, spelling .. 

Yeah but the MIlo ML08B has better airflow then some other mITX cases I've seen.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:13 pm

whm1974 wrote:
maxxcool wrote:
Glorious wrote:

Sure. You work for the CIA too, right? And so it's top-secret or something?



If you were doing data recovery, this is ridiculous.

But that's such a huge secret & sensitive field (  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:  :roll: ) that I can understand why you can't talk about it.

Oh, it's not that? Something else, known only to you?

Yup. Sure. Enjoy being an international man of (made-up) mystery, but please refrain from making silly technical claims in the future then. If you can't say (LOL), fine, don't say.



Nah, too much file stuff.

Don't encourage him, he's already excited that he's turned his ignorant FUD about AMD's TDP into this new (and even MORE annoying) "I'm SO mysterious and cool and do stuff you don't know but I do!" schtick.

If I was only a man of mystery, please. What I did was hours of boring..

Back on topic,  AMD 8c/16th cpu in a minimal space is still questionable,  we need to see the actual real deal in the future to know for sure but high end-gaming with a SFF rig, or folding is questionable.  It depends a ton on implementation and ability to remove heat from the case.. but I suspect throttling will still be a issue if one expects the cpu to maintain its highest turbo clock speed.. 

edit, spelling .. 

Yeah but the MIlo ML08B has better airflow then some other mITX cases I've seen.

If it is quiet and can pull off the thermals that would be pretty ideal for a lan box. :)    
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:22 pm

The Node 202 is my pick.  I've been very happy with my Node 304.  The thermals of the Node 202 are middle of the road, but when I was at Micro Center it was the only compact ITX case that didn't make me cringe.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:39 pm

$109 at Newegg with a 450W SFX PSU included. Kinda hard to beat at that price.
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:44 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
$109 at Newegg with a 450W SFX PSU included. Kinda hard to beat at that price.

Darn, I already have my Christmas stuff purchased.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:26 pm

maxxcool wrote:
If I was only a man of mystery, please. What I did was hours of boring..

Back on topic,  AMD 8c/16th cpu in a minimal space is still questionable,  we need to see the actual real deal in the future to know for sure but high end-gaming with a SFF rig, or folding is questionable.  It depends a ton on implementation and ability to remove heat from the case.. but I suspect throttling will still be a issue if one expects the cpu to maintain its highest turbo clock speed.. 

edit, spelling .. 

Heh. If you were doing what I think you must have been doing, I'd not have said nearly as much...

Re: The Topic - I think that AMD will cheat, and cheat heinously. There's a easy way to do it, too - remove the iGPU. That frees up a ton of die space and power/heat that would normally be taken up. Even Intel has iGPUs on pretty much every SOHO die they make nowadays.

Is it a good idea for AMD to do this? No... but if they are still behind on heat, die-space, or power like I can only imagine they will be, it's an option.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:37 pm

So, you're saying Intel cheated on their Xenon and "high end" platform?  Current benchmarks that have been shown and "leaked" indicate that Zen is on par in the blender benchmark.  I'm ready to invest in mounds of salt at this point, but no current CPU that AMD produces could cheat to achieve that feat.  I remain cautiously optimistic. 

The point of this thread was to ask if we think Zen will fit in a SFF.  I think with proper cooling Zen will fit in a SFF build, even at the rumored 95W.  The Wraith cooler has proven it is sufficient enough to keep pace with the beloved Evo 212 in benchmarks that I have seen.  If Wraith fits in the chassis I think it will be fine.  People fit overclocked Intel stuff in them all the time, reaching over 100W in the process.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:44 pm

Losergamer04 wrote:
So, you're saying Intel cheated on their Xenon and "high end" platform?  Current benchmarks that have been shown and "leaked" indicate that Zen is on par in the blender benchmark.  I'm ready to invest in mounds of salt at this point, but no current CPU that AMD produces could cheat to achieve that feat.  I remain cautiously optimistic. 

The point of this thread was to ask if we think Zen will fit in a SFF.  I think with proper cooling Zen will fit in a SFF build, even at the rumored 95W.  The Wraith cooler has proven it is sufficient enough to keep pace with the beloved Evo 212 in benchmarks that I have seen.  If Wraith fits in the chassis I think it will be fine.  People fit overclocked Intel stuff in them all the time, reaching over 100W in the process.

I'm optimistic about performance too, but being competitive with Broadwell isn't helpful when Kaby Lake is almost here on the desktop. My point is that AMD might need to alter the design to get the best possible performance from whatever design they have, and removing the iGPU will allow for more heat/power tweaking that otherwise wouldn't be possible.

And, no, Intel business CPUs weren't ever APUs because they don't need to be; when I say "cheating" I mean "removing the iGPU from a APU design prior to production to free up power budget for a factory overclock".

I don't think that fitting Zen into a SFFis even in question. Of course we will be able to. AMD simply can't and won't release Zen above 125 watts. Well, unless they have no other option and are going to go out of business anyways.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:52 pm

Not sure why that would even be considered a "cheat". TBH I never expected the 8c/16t version to have an IGP; I figured it would be analogous to the APU/FX thing today -- lower core count devices with an IGP for budget-sensitive applications, and higher core count without IGP for performance desktops and workstations. The only difference this time around is that they both use the same socket.
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:19 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
Yeah, mATX will be much quieter but that's not always the point.

I would never use one myself (I'm a quiet > performance sort of person) but I had a lot of fun building into a FTZ01 with a GTX970 and Haswell i5 for someone's couch gaming build. Out of the box it was a bit noisy but some silicone sealant to mount different fans with and a bit of dremeling to remove airflow obstructions made a huge difference to the noise. The fun was in trying to make it quiet when 250W in a tiny space is not going to be by default. I was pleased enough with the results that I'd recommend that case for anyone willing to experiment (and presumably the Milo and Raven equivalents based on the same chassis and internal layout).

I don't think you can build an mITX case and just expect a quiet system without some careful component choice. You should also stick to mATX if you're not expecting to do some light modding.

Quiet ITX can be done with the right components and a little less overclocking.   The video card is the biggest issue, fortunately no longer a problem for me.
It's about quality fans, rubber fan mounts, very quiet CPU cooler and careful PSU selection - finally a good case.  
Eliminating the HDD helps too.    
I intend to make a pretty darn quiet ITX one mid next year which should be fairly high performance, but no GPU
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:22 pm

Isn't the possibility of a small form factor Zen system decided by the motherboard vendors, and not by AMD?  Having 8+ cores in a mini-ITX form factor isn't anything new, so it's not like Zen would be breaking new ground here.  I would agree having a small but obnoxiously loud PC is kind of missing the point, but that's not really up to AMD to decide if it makes sense to do that.
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:25 pm

Integrated GPU or not, I'm more interested in a quad-core, eight-thread APU with higher clock speeds. 8C/16T looks firmly aimed at very-threaded stuff which doesn't really describe my PC use. It doesn't really describe any PC gamer's use, either.
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Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:32 pm

SFF is a loosely defined term, how about volume?

You can put a X99 itx board in a cube with a good cooler. The asrock consumer X99 itx only has 2 dimms, but server itx one has all 4 channels to sodimms, they make big ECC modules for Xeon Ds that work fine for E5 as well:

http://www.asrockrack.com/general/produ ... ifications

That is up to 22 cores (or 10 unlocked), a big enough cpu air cooler for at least 150W TDP, a monster GPU and a couple SSDs with a regular ATX powersupply in something like a core V1: a ton of power in roughly a cubic foot.
Last edited by Bauxite on Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:33 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Not sure why that would even be considered a "cheat". TBH I never expected the 8c/16t version to have an IGP; I figured it would be analogous to the APU/FX thing today -- lower core count devices with an IGP for budget-sensitive applications, and higher core count without IGP for performance desktops and workstations. The only difference this time around is that they both use the same socket.

Why would anyone even put an iGPU on a high performance CPU anyway?
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:58 pm

whm1974 wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Not sure why that would even be considered a "cheat". TBH I never expected the 8c/16t version to have an IGP; I figured it would be analogous to the APU/FX thing today -- lower core count devices with an IGP for budget-sensitive applications, and higher core count without IGP for performance desktops and workstations. The only difference this time around is that they both use the same socket.

Why would anyone even put an iGPU on a high performance CPU anyway?


They wouldn't, but they would on an APU :P. AMD is still betting on HSA.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:18 pm

If you think an APU is something different than a CPU with integrated graphics, then AMDs marketing department loves you.  Creating the "APU" was an exercise in rebranding when they knew couldn't compete on performance.
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:22 pm

whm1974 wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Not sure why that would even be considered a "cheat". TBH I never expected the 8c/16t version to have an IGP; I figured it would be analogous to the APU/FX thing today -- lower core count devices with an IGP for budget-sensitive applications, and higher core count without IGP for performance desktops and workstations. The only difference this time around is that they both use the same socket.

Why would anyone even put an iGPU on a high performance CPU anyway?

I think we all want the answer to that question. I guess it's nice to have if a video card fails; at least the PC would still be usable for non-gaming tasks, but... that's kind of an edge case.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:58 pm

Redocbew wrote:
If you think an APU is something different than a CPU with integrated graphics, then AMDs marketing department loves you.  Creating the "APU" was an exercise in rebranding when they knew couldn't compete on performance.

AFAIK nobody here is implying that they are different. It's a convenient shorthand, basically.
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:05 pm

My two previous comments were tongue in cheek.

HSA really could be a big deal, but until Intel buys into it I don't think it will really matter.
 
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Re: SFF Zen 8c/16t system.

Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:26 pm

Actually 1U servers benefit from decent IGPs. Some of the onboard graphics chips for server boards are so bad that it makes KVM sessions unbearable. Most of the time it's irrelevant since the server is running a remote session but occasionally you need to physically interact with a server and you want more than a standard VGA adapter these days.
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