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Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:34 am

OMG, can we just take all the audio engineers who apply massive dynamic range compression out back and shoot them?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:42 am

That's not the first time I've seen that wiki page. I went looking into myself a few years back wondering why certain songs had a noticeable increase in loudness. I think it was Metallica
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:58 am

I doesn't just make it seem louder, it crushes the life out of it (and in extreme cases results in severe clipping/distortion).

Compression/distortion is an essential component of rock music (especially electric guitar), but it needs to be applied judiciously. When you apply it to the vocals, acoustic instruments (e.g. percussion), or to the overall mix, it generally results in a sonic train wreck unless used sparingly for special effect.
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:12 am

@biffzinker: Even within the metal genre, compare that Metallica album (I assume you mean Death Magnetic...) to, say, Opeth's Blackwater Park. Heavily distorted guitars (and death growl vocals, in Opeth's case) doesn't mean the whole mix needs to be a distorted, muddy mess!
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:16 am

just brew it! wrote:
@biffzinker: Even within the metal genre, compare that Metallica album (I assume you mean Death Magnetic...) to, say, Opeth's Blackwater Park. Heavily distorted guitars (and death growl vocals, in Opeth's case) doesn't mean the whole mix needs to be a distorted, muddy mess!


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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:25 am

Why? Seriously, Why?

Audio engineers shouldn't have any business in altering the source material unless it was damaged or poorly recorded. Let the listener tweak the volume/loudness if they are so inclined.

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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:47 am

I used to buy into the idea that this was done solely to have the loudest record for when stuff is played on the radio, but after watching HTG's interview with Paul Barton (of PSB speakers fame) I realize that another reason for doing this is in order for details in the music to become audible when played on budget audio systems.

An audiophile recording played on an audiophile system may well be able to resolve that tiny triangle being rung from the back row of a stage, but played back on a cheap radio set those details more or less disappear into the background.

Image

Unfortunately for us, cheap radios and computer speakers are probably 99.9% of the market, so aside from a few select audiophile labels, the recording engineers master for that sort of system. The Loudness War then, is aside from a ploy to be louder on the radio, also the audio equivalent of bad console ports.
 
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:31 am

The linked article from IEEE is seminal and well worth reading (http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-future-of-music).

Jihadjoe has a point here - I'd say though that it's most valid when listening in a loud environment (car, kitchen, etc). Even on a low cost radio, the dynamic range is not so poor that it would make heavy compression necessary.
 
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:46 am

is this an issue anymore? it kinda hit its peak when the pop music was more of a rock bent. I mean granted I'm old enough now that I'm not really going after the hip new music. but I find this issue has cooled off some with the arrival of hip hop in place of mainstream popular music. the farther you get away from "alt rock" the less of it the current crop of rock stuff has. pop has basically turned into the same song or three songs, over and over, devoid of any much melody, usually comprised of different combinations of the same 5 building blocks. not much to compress besides the adele voice.

these days it seems variation in dynamic range is absent less because of heavy compression making everything flatly loud but because the original recording just didn't have a lot of variation in its creation. this is the voice, it's at this level. this is the whistle, it's at this level. this is the piano playing 4 notes in repetition, it's at this level. so on

whoa I had no idea they were altering recordings for re-release like that! ok let's shoot them!
 
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:03 am

Hell, back in the late '70s/early '80s one used to find dynamic range expander boxen (all from dbx in multiple flavors) in top-line home stereo rigs. And this was when mastering was so much more faithful to the natural dynamic range of the music.
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:30 am

DR compression does have its place when used wisely. I wish NPR would use it when they interview people, for instance - you can hear the host loud and clear, but often enough if the interviewee is on a phone or in a remote location, they're really quiet and hard to hear on my car stereo without risking blowing my ears out when the host responds.
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:32 am

Not only compression problems, ive mentioned before that a radio station I used to listen to always bothered me for some reason. I sat down and figured out they they sped up songs just slightly, maybe 1 or 2 percent faster. I could never really figure out why they would do this though.
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:39 am

Heiwashin wrote:
Not only compression problems, ive mentioned before that a radio station I used to listen to always bothered me for some reason. I sat down and figured out they they sped up songs just slightly, maybe 1 or 2 percent faster. I could never really figure out why they would do this though.


So they can get slightly more commercials in.
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:40 am

Heiwashin wrote:
Not only that ive mentioned before that a radio station I used to listen to always bothered me for some reason. I sat down and figured out they they sped up songs just slightly, maybe 1 or 2 percent faster. I could never really figure out why they would do this though.

Open House Party used to do (maybe still does) this, and it always drove me insane.
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:09 am

Yep, I mentioned this a while back - at some point, dynamic range (on most modern music) ends up ruining the audio quality more than mp3 compression. Finding the same album before and after the loudness wars (remasters)... man it's obvious.
 
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:16 am

I've heard that a more recent reason for purposeful compression of dynamic range was to master toward cheaper headphones/earbuds that so many people wear these days. Every phone you buy these days is also a music player. The earbuds they come with, however, are usually not the best. How many people go out of their way to spend to upgrade to something decent?
 
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:33 am

just brew it! wrote:
@biffzinker: Even within the metal genre, compare that Metallica album (I assume you mean Death Magnetic...) to, say, Opeth's Blackwater Park. Heavily distorted guitars (and death growl vocals, in Opeth's case) doesn't mean the whole mix needs to be a distorted, muddy mess!


The issues you have with the Metallica recordings go beyond the dynamic range. And Blackwater Park is an example of how dispite there being minimal dynamic range you can still enjoy the recording and even think it has good dynamic range.

Death Magnetic: http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/111598
Blackwater Park: http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/99051

Opeth in general had terrible recording and master quality for ages. Their early albums really suffer because of it. A significant portion of the catalog has been remastered though.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/106225
 
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:43 am

I really hate this trend as well, it has ruined modern music. Worse, some albums/tracks even clip the hell out of things because "loud". Ugh. You can't hear it on crappy speakers, but dammit, I'm tired of music being catered towards crapass earbuds and HT-in-a-box type setups. :( Movies are the only thing that haven't been murdered, in general, by this trend (I assume because movie theaters would make it obvious).


However, on the other hand, I wish Windows 8/8.1/10 had the same dynamic compression ability that Windows 7 had (for most sound chipsets, no special sauce needed). It's annoying playing a game quietly and not hear anything except the occasional very loud explosion or whatever.
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:32 am

cynan wrote:
I've heard that a more recent reason for purposeful compression of dynamic range was to master toward cheaper headphones/earbuds that so many people wear these days. Every phone you buy these days is also a music player. The earbuds they come with, however, are usually not the best. How many people go out of their way to spend to upgrade to something decent?

I thought the original reason was the song stands out in comparison to others. Ex. a radio playing at a fixed volume. And then it got ridiculous.

As for earbuds... I've been using these for a while now. Super comfortable, and great sound quality for the price. (You can get the pink ones for $6, and slightly less obnoxious colors for a dollar or two more. Hard to complain for that price. Although I actually do have the pink ones because I thought they'd be harder to loose/easier to find - didn't really work, I misplace them anyway. :lol:) I carry them around everywhere, use them in the gym, and if they get lost I just buy another. So much more comfortable than the stock iPhone earbuds (and far better sound than the earbuds that came with my Galaxy Nexus - I shouldn't have put up with those for so long). Nowhere near as good as the SP-BS22LR's (and the sub), but come on, $6. For casual listening it's fine. I stopped carrying around the HD202's because these are smaller/more comfortable/I'm lazy.

Tailoring music to cheap earbuds seems silly though - it's going to be limited regardless. That's like calibrating the piece of crap Acer TN's I'm using at work (if I were a permanent employee, I'd probably buy more Ultrasharps off craigslist - I already have a few - and replace them at my own expense for the sake of my sanity). Nowhere near accurate; I had one a while back and got rid of it fast because I couldn't make it look decent.
 
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:38 am

slowriot wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
@biffzinker: Even within the metal genre, compare that Metallica album (I assume you mean Death Magnetic...) to, say, Opeth's Blackwater Park. Heavily distorted guitars (and death growl vocals, in Opeth's case) doesn't mean the whole mix needs to be a distorted, muddy mess!


The issues you have with the Metallica recordings go beyond the dynamic range. And Blackwater Park is an example of how dispite there being minimal dynamic range you can still enjoy the recording and even think it has good dynamic range.

Death Magnetic: http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/111598
Blackwater Park: http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/99051

Opeth in general had terrible recording and master quality for ages. Their early albums really suffer because of it. A significant portion of the catalog has been remastered though.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/106225


I've noticed from those dr loudness tests the vinyl versions of new albums seem to almost always have better dynamic range too. It almost makes me tempted to get a player and record them as FLAC/WAV, but I don't know if I can venture that far into hipster audiophile territory.
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Re: Loudness Wars

Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:46 am

travbrad wrote:
I've noticed from those dr loudness tests the vinyl versions of new albums seem to almost always have better dynamic range too. It almost makes me tempted to get a player and record them as FLAC/WAV, but I don't know if I can venture that far into hipster audiophile territory.


Vinyl releases are often mastered differently because its a safer assumption that they will be played on better equipment. Personally these days I keep a subscription to Tidal since their hi-res streaming is the best and also buy a lot of music on vinyl and rip to FLAC for archive/MP3 for my phone. Audio-Technica has a lot of good options for these purposes. I use a Audio-Technica AT-LP120-USB.
 
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Re: Loudness Wars

Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:03 pm

Also if you master stuff too hot for vinyl, it physically breaks things. :wink: (Typical modern masters for digital formats count as too hot for vinyl.)
 
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Re: Loudness Wars

Mon Jul 18, 2016 4:45 pm

Thankfully, Youtube now normalizing video audio is doing wonders for ending the loudness war.

And for the record (pun intended), a certain album being loud and compressed doesn't mean it will be distorting or sound bad. Prodigy's Fat of the Land, Metallica's Load, and Opeth's Deliverance are three examples of heavy albums with a "full" sound with loads of judiciously-applied compression.

I see compression as playing with fire: you really need to know what you're doing.
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Re: Loudness Wars

Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:03 pm

Don't forget that vinyl also has compansion (compression/expansion) built in at the fundamental level through the RIAA curve.

As for heavy/thrash/metal, dynamic range isn't much of an issue (barring the occasional "Unforgiven"). You start remastering my Genesis & Yes LPs/CDs with an eye to the loudness wars and yea verily, you have sinned mightily.
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Re: Loudness Wars

Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:26 pm

RIAA curve did not mess with dynamics though. It was a lossless (in theory, at least) tweaking of the frequency response of the recording process, with an inverse response curve used during playback. So that's really an apples-oranges comparison.

And yeah, dynamic range compression, if done cleanly (without clipping) can be OK with certain types of music. But if pushed beyond the limit (into clipping) it is going to sound like crap. That's the crucial difference between Blackwater Park and Death Magnetic.
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Re: Loudness Wars

Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:34 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
As for heavy/thrash/metal, dynamic range isn't much of an issue (barring the occasional "Unforgiven").

You'd be surprised. I mean, it's not like dynamics are going to matter as much as with jazz or something, but the combination of "too much compression" + "heavy music" will wear out your ears pretty fast. I stopped listening to Disturbed because the albums just sounded terrible after the first.

Oh, right, and even though I'm a big Dream Theater fan, the latest couple albums also sound like s**t. Since it was usually John Petrucci calling the shots sound-wise, I wonder wtf's going on. Having 10+ minute songs that are prone to fatiguing ears is not a good recipe.
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Re: Loudness Wars

Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:45 pm

morphine wrote:
You'd be surprised. I mean, it's not like dynamics are going to matter as much as with jazz or something, but the combination of "too much compression" + "heavy music" will wear out your ears pretty fast. I stopped listening to Disturbed because the albums just sounded terrible after the first.

Oh, right, and even though I'm a big Dream Theater fan, the latest couple albums also sound like s**t. Since it was usually John Petrucci calling the shots sound-wise, I wonder wtf's going on. Having 10+ minute songs that are prone to fatiguing ears is not a good recipe.

No, I get it, on the rare occasions that I dip my toes in those waters. My guess is that the mastering standard for most music these days is the iPhone earbud and they've already cranked in an estimation of how much hearing loss said teenager has already accumulated.

I also think that today's mastering is done with MP3/AAC in mind, trying to "outguess" the data-reduction algorithms to retain as much of the original intent as possible. Data points? Zero. Just a random thought.
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Re: Loudness Wars

Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:02 pm

localhostrulez wrote:
Yep, I mentioned this a while back - at some point, dynamic range (on most modern music) ends up ruining the audio quality more than mp3 compression. Finding the same album before and after the loudness wars (remasters)... man it's obvious.


Yup. I've scoured the dark recesses of the internet in search of high dynamic range music to replace / augment my existing collection (much of it legitimately purchased.)
A punchy high bit rate MP3 will always get played before a compressed flac, etc. version.

Along similar lines, an older 16/44.1 recording usually sounds better than a compressed (AKA "Re-mastered" :roll: ) 'HD' audio recording with 24+ bits and a sampling rate only a bat could appreciate.
 
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Re: Loudness Wars

Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:09 pm

Analysis suggests that the loudness trend may have peaked around 2005 and subsequently reduced, with a pronounced increase in overall and minimum album DR (crest factor) for albums since 2005.


One of the biggest albums of 2013 was Daft Punk's Random Access Memories, with many reviews commenting on the album's great sound. Mixing engineer Mick Guzauski deliberately chose to use less compression on the project, commenting "We never tried to make it loud and I think it sounds better for it." In January 2014 the album won five Grammy Awards, including Best Engineered Album (Non-Classical).
 
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Re: Loudness Wars

Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:15 pm

I find that rock music gets terribly affected by this - multiple instruments at once, and the details get ruined. (I.e. I have some Tom Petty stuff as a loudness-ruined compilation album, as well as the original album. The original sounds SO much better, absolutely no contest, even on my crappy car speakers. Now, a high quality mp3 vs my physical CD, that's much harder to tell.) Classical would as well, except that loudness wars aren't much of a thing there.

Funny enough, a lot of rap music (and maybe pop) fares much better, because it's musically quite simple to begin with (although they tend to push some of the bass so it distorts noticeably).

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