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SecretSquirrel
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In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:39 am

I've been searching for an amp for my office without much luck and I figured I'd toss it out to gerbildom to see if such a rare beast exists. First, the setup.

This is a amp for my home office. Currently I have a 1998 vintage JVC RX-884V driving a pair of Fluance XL7s speakers. Source is either from the computer by way of SPDIF optical, or good old FM radio. The JVC is still quite functional, though the power button on the remote is starting to get flaky.. It is, however, rather big and hot. So, I've been thinking that a nice little digital amp would be just the thing as a replacement. The problem, however, seems to be finding one with the following:

0) digital amp -- class D, class T, whatever you want to call it
1) two channels -- No point in paying for channels I'll never use
2) optical input -- no worries about hum or other noise
3) FM receiver -- yes, I still listen to the radio on occasion and online streams suck
4) AUX input -- the need to plug a random audio source in comes up enough that this is desirable.

Lepai has a few that have built in FM receivers, but I'd have to use an external DAC for the SPDIF connection, AND, they are ugly.

Does such a unicorn exist?

--SS

**edit: added requirement 0.
Last edited by SecretSquirrel on Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
The Egg
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:04 am

An amp with an FM receiver would then just be a "Receiver", would it not?  Yamaha still has a lineup of purely stereo receivers, but I suppose you could also do a separate amp and tuner for probably substantially more money. 
 
SecretSquirrel
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:13 am

The Egg wrote:
An amp with an FM receiver would then just be a "Receiver", would it not?  Yamaha still has a lineup of purely stereo receivers, but I suppose you could also do a separate amp and tuner for probably substantially more money. 


You missed the part about "small digital amp". I've got a receiver already. The point was to reclaim some space and get rid of some heat.

--SS
 
The Egg
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:21 am

SecretSquirrel wrote:
The Egg wrote:
An amp with an FM receiver would then just be a "Receiver", would it not?  Yamaha still has a lineup of purely stereo receivers, but I suppose you could also do a separate amp and tuner for probably substantially more money. 


You missed the part about "small digital amp".  I've got a receiver already.  The point was to reclaim some space and get rid of some heat.

--SS

I'm lost.  How are you going to reclaim space and get rid of heat while retaining the receiver and adding another device?
 
SecretSquirrel
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:24 am

The Egg wrote:
SecretSquirrel wrote:
The Egg wrote:
An amp with an FM receiver would then just be a "Receiver", would it not?  Yamaha still has a lineup of purely stereo receivers, but I suppose you could also do a separate amp and tuner for probably substantially more money. 


You missed the part about "small digital amp".  I've got a receiver already.  The point was to reclaim some space and get rid of some heat.

--SS

I'm lost.  How are you going to reclaim space and get rid of heat while retaining the receiver and adding another device?


Because I'd be getting rid of the existing JVC receiver?

--SS
 
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:40 am

The unicorn is getting a DAC with an integrated FM tuner.

Otherwise a USB soundcard and a digital AMP with mutliple analogue inputs may be a decent workaround. You can get soundcards with pre-amp volume controls (integrated headphone amp) and they'll take SPDIF at a push, but USB will likely give you the soundcard's superior DAC to what I assume is your motherboard's onboard Realtek?

Finding DACs with multiple analogue inputs is practically impossible. You've already eliminated most of the DAC market just asking for one analogue input (for the FM tuner).
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just brew it!
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:42 am

@The Egg -

Inconsistent use of the word "receiver" seems to be confusing you. He's referring to just the FM capability, you're using it in the traditional sense of am amp with a tuner built in.

He wants to downsize his receiver (traditional use of the word), replacing the existing unit with one that is physically smaller and more power efficient.
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morphine
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:40 am

SS, the problem with your question is the FM receiver capability. That's being dropped everywhere. Here's what I found after some Google searching:

These are the droids you're looking for, but they're expen$$ive:

Cambridge Audio One: https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products ... cinema/one
Harman Kardon MAS 102: http://www.harmankardon.com/stereo-ampl ... olor=Black

A little big:

Panasonic SA-XR50S: https://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-SA-XR5 ... op?ie=UTF8
Harman Kardon 3700: http://www.harmankardon.com/stereo-ampl ... ck#start=1
Marantz NR1504: https://www.amazon.com/Marantz-NR1504-C ... B00BLZDKX2
Emotiva TA-100: https://emotiva.com/products/amplifiers ... ros/ta-100
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yogibbear
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:20 am

There is no such thing.

Big = quiet and good airflow + low heat + options.

Small = tradeoffs on quality / heat / noise / lack of options / $$$ for form factor / non-standard inputs/compatibility.

Just buy the sexiest looking receiver you can and spend money on better furniture or wall fittings to cleanup your office. Chasing unicorns is correct otherwise.
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SecretSquirrel
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:39 am

morphine wrote:
SS, the problem with your question is the FM receiver capability. That's being dropped everywhere. Here's what I found after some Google searching:

These are the droids you're looking for, but they're expen$$ive:

Cambridge Audio One: https://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products ... cinema/one
Harman Kardon MAS 102: http://www.harmankardon.com/stereo-ampl ... olor=Black

A little big:

Panasonic SA-XR50S: https://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-SA-XR5 ... op?ie=UTF8
Harman Kardon 3700: http://www.harmankardon.com/stereo-ampl ... ck#start=1
Marantz NR1504: https://www.amazon.com/Marantz-NR1504-C ... B00BLZDKX2
Emotiva TA-100: https://emotiva.com/products/amplifiers ... ros/ta-100


If the Emotiva TA-100 had a digital amplifier section, as so had the smaller footprint that such affords, it would be just about perfect.

--SS
 
SecretSquirrel
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:51 am

yogibbear wrote:
There is no such thing.

Big = quiet and good airflow + low heat + options.

Small = tradeoffs on quality / heat / noise / lack of options / $$$ for form factor / non-standard inputs/compatibility.

Just buy the sexiest looking receiver you can and spend money on better furniture or wall fittings to cleanup your office. Chasing unicorns is correct otherwise.


Sure, it's all a set of trade offs. I'm trading the increase in THD that comes with a digital amp for size and efficiency. My office has pretty lousy acoustics, lots of echo, and there is nothing I can do about it. I've already got furniture and I expect my office looks quite a bit nicer than the average nerd office.

I've got the receiver already. It works fine. If the unicorn exists, I'd consider replacing it as it would be better, given the desired criteria. Otherwise, I'm perfectly happy to stay with what I've got. This was simply a "hey, has anybody stumbled across this thing?" question.

--SS
 
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:57 am

SecretSquirrel wrote:
yogibbear wrote:
There is no such thing.

Big = quiet and good airflow + low heat + options.

Small = tradeoffs on quality / heat / noise / lack of options / $$$ for form factor / non-standard inputs/compatibility.

Just buy the sexiest looking receiver you can and spend money on better furniture or wall fittings to cleanup your office. Chasing unicorns is correct otherwise.


Sure, it's all a set of trade offs. I'm trading the increase in THD that comes with a digital amp for size and efficiency. My office has pretty lousy acoustics, lots of echo, and there is nothing I can do about it. I've already got furniture and I expect my office looks quite a bit nicer than the average nerd office.

I've got the receiver already. It works fine. If the unicorn exists, I'd consider replacing it as it would be better, given the desired criteria. Otherwise, I'm perfectly happy to stay with what I've got. This was simply a "hey, has anybody stumbled across this thing?" question.

--SS


You said you want to replace the JVC. I'm saying buy the sexiest big receiver (Onkyo / Pioneer / Yamaha / whatever) as it'll have all the inputs you want, do exactly what you want, and not be ridiculously expensive or result in tradeoffs. I know your OP started with small, hence why I'm saying it doesn't exist.
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SecretSquirrel
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:22 pm

yogibbear wrote:
SecretSquirrel wrote:
yogibbear wrote:
There is no such thing.

Big = quiet and good airflow + low heat + options.

Small = tradeoffs on quality / heat / noise / lack of options / $$$ for form factor / non-standard inputs/compatibility.

Just buy the sexiest looking receiver you can and spend money on better furniture or wall fittings to cleanup your office. Chasing unicorns is correct otherwise.


Sure, it's all a set of trade offs. I'm trading the increase in THD that comes with a digital amp for size and efficiency. My office has pretty lousy acoustics, lots of echo, and there is nothing I can do about it. I've already got furniture and I expect my office looks quite a bit nicer than the average nerd office.

I've got the receiver already. It works fine. If the unicorn exists, I'd consider replacing it as it would be better, given the desired criteria. Otherwise, I'm perfectly happy to stay with what I've got. This was simply a "hey, has anybody stumbled across this thing?" question.

--SS


You said you want to replace the JVC. I'm saying buy the sexiest big receiver (Onkyo / Pioneer / Yamaha / whatever) as it'll have all the inputs you want, do exactly what you want, and not be ridiculously expensive or result in tradeoffs. I know your OP started with small, hence why I'm saying it doesn't exist.


But other than size, and the general heat output from just being one, the JVC does everything needed. I agree it's unlikely that what I am looking for exists at any reasonable price. I've spent a fair amount of time on Google, Amazon, and EBay and haven't found anything yet. But, given the gerbils capability to identify random stuff, I thought I'd ask a larger audience.

--SS
 
The Egg
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:23 pm

just brew it! wrote:
@The Egg -  Inconsistent use of the word "receiver" seems to be confusing you. He's referring to just the FM capability, you're using it in the traditional sense of am amp with a tuner built in.
He wants to downsize his receiver (traditional use of the word), replacing the existing unit with one that is physically smaller and more power efficient.

I followed the FM tuner vs full Receiver, I was just confused by the wording of the responses (already having his JVC receiver while simultaneously getting rid of it), in combination with being tired and not having any coffee yet.

SS - If your PC is the source, you could just use a USB FM tuner such as this, and then whatever combination of DAC+AMP you want.  I found this FX Audio combo unit which looks okay.  I use a Schiit Modi 2 Uber for my headphone amp, which should work just as well for whatever you use.
 
SecretSquirrel
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:41 pm

The Egg wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
@The Egg -  Inconsistent use of the word "receiver" seems to be confusing you. He's referring to just the FM capability, you're using it in the traditional sense of am amp with a tuner built in.
He wants to downsize his receiver (traditional use of the word), replacing the existing unit with one that is physically smaller and more power efficient.

I followed the FM tuner vs full Receiver, I was just confused by the wording of the responses (already having his JVC receiver while simultaneously getting rid of it), in combination with being tired and not having any coffee yet.

SS - If your PC is the source, you could just use a USB FM tuner such as this, and then whatever combination of DAC+AMP you want.  I found this FX Audio combo unit which looks okay.  I use a Schiit Modi 2 Uber for my headphone amp, which should work just as well for whatever you use.


Moving FM to the PC is a possibility. I'll have to consider that. I've actually already got an SDR receiver, though I mainly use it for 2.4GHz stuff. I'll have to pick up an F<->MCX converter and see if I can find an interface package that is decent...

That FX Audio unit and others similar to it are pretty much what I have been looking at.

Part of the goal would be to have standby power be low enough that I don't feel bad when I forget to turn the amp off when I'm not in my office. :)

--SS
 
Acidicheartburn
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:59 pm

The Emotiva TA-100 amp seems to have everything you're looking for except a small footprint.  It will sound MUCH better than that old JVC receiver, though.  It's $399, though you never mentioned price.
 
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:59 pm

So the first thing I thought of was something like this: http://www.crutchfield.com/p_033DM40S/Denon-D-M40.html if you could find it without the speakers, or find a new use/home for the speakers that come with it (maybe hooked up to your soon-to-be-unused receiver that still works just fine.)

There's this one too that looks like you only give up AM tuner and a 2nd optical input http://www.crutchfield.com/p_033DM39S/Denon-D-M39S.html?cc=07&tp=209
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SecretSquirrel
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:28 pm

Acidicheartburn wrote:
The Emotiva TA-100 amp seems to have everything you're looking for except a small footprint.  It will sound MUCH better than that old JVC receiver, though.  It's $399, though you never mentioned price.


My ears are decent, but I doubt I can hear the difference between 0.02%THD and 0.0015% THD. DACs are likely better, but the room is going to color the sound way more than the DACs/amp ever will (unless they just downright suck).

Price isn't really a factor. I make enough to afford the occasional toy. Value, however, is important. Starting from a working if somewhat slightly less than desired setup makes the value equation much harder to satisfy. $399 is not worth it at this point. I've got a bunch of other expensive things I'd rather get first. Canon XA20 or XA25 is high on that list, but that's another story.

--SS
 
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:33 pm

SecretSquirrel wrote:
Acidicheartburn wrote:
The Emotiva TA-100 amp seems to have everything you're looking for except a small footprint.  It will sound MUCH better than that old JVC receiver, though.  It's $399, though you never mentioned price.


My ears are decent, but I doubt I can hear the difference between 0.02%THD and 0.0015% THD.  DACs are likely better, but the room is going to color the sound way more than the DACs/amp ever will (unless they just downright suck).

Price isn't really a factor.  I make enough to afford the occasional toy.  Value, however, is important.  Starting from a working if somewhat slightly less than desired setup makes the value equation much harder to satisfy.  $399 is not worth it at this point.  I've got a bunch of other expensive things I'd rather get first.  Canon XA20 or XA25 is high on that list, but that's another story.

--SS

Sound quality isn't all about measurable specs.  I'm 100% certain that Emotiva will sound leagues better.
 
SecretSquirrel
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:07 pm

Acidicheartburn wrote:
SecretSquirrel wrote:
Acidicheartburn wrote:
The Emotiva TA-100 amp seems to have everything you're looking for except a small footprint.  It will sound MUCH better than that old JVC receiver, though.  It's $399, though you never mentioned price.


My ears are decent, but I doubt I can hear the difference between 0.02%THD and 0.0015% THD.  DACs are likely better, but the room is going to color the sound way more than the DACs/amp ever will (unless they just downright suck).

Price isn't really a factor.  I make enough to afford the occasional toy.  Value, however, is important.  Starting from a working if somewhat slightly less than desired setup makes the value equation much harder to satisfy.  $399 is not worth it at this point.  I've got a bunch of other expensive things I'd rather get first.  Canon XA20 or XA25 is high on that list, but that's another story.

--SS

Sound quality isn't all about measurable specs.  I'm 100% certain that Emotiva will sound leagues better.


Hmm.... I think there is another thread about that...

--SS
 
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:22 am

Once I saw frumper15's Crutchfield link, I got clued into the right search terms, which are (apparently) "micro receiver."  Lo and behold:

https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-CRX-332BL ... o+receiver
https://www.amazon.com/Sony-Bluetooth-S ... o+receiver
https://www.amazon.com/Theater-Receiver ... o+receiver
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SecretSquirrel
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:41 am

ludi wrote:
Once I saw frumper15's Crutchfield link, I got clued into the right search terms, which are (apparently) "micro receiver."  Lo and behold:

https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-CRX-332BL ... o+receiver
https://www.amazon.com/Sony-Bluetooth-S ... o+receiver
https://www.amazon.com/Theater-Receiver ... o+receiver


None of which accept any sort of digital in and only the Sony accepts analog in.
 
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:48 am

SecretSquirrel wrote:
ludi wrote:
Once I saw frumper15's Crutchfield link, I got clued into the right search terms, which are (apparently) "micro receiver."  Lo and behold:

https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-CRX-332BL ... o+receiver
https://www.amazon.com/Sony-Bluetooth-S ... o+receiver
https://www.amazon.com/Theater-Receiver ... o+receiver


None of which accept any sort of digital in and only the Sony accepts analog in.

Ah, you're right. However, that was the cheaper end of the range -- search those same terms and there are more options with more features (but higher prices).
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DPete27
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:18 am

SecretSquirrel wrote:
ludi wrote:
Once I saw frumper15's Crutchfield link, I got clued into the right search terms, which are (apparently) "micro receiver."  Lo and behold:

https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-CRX-332BL ... o+receiver
https://www.amazon.com/Sony-Bluetooth-S ... o+receiver
https://www.amazon.com/Theater-Receiver ... o+receiver


None of which accept any sort of digital in and only the Sony accepts analog in.

All 3 accept USB inputs.  That's digital.  
Other than that, I'm staying out of this bc I'm still confused what you want in a product and what you're intending to keep/get rid of in your existing setup.  Most recievers these days have an AM/FM tuner built in.  So it makes sense to me to get rid of your amp AND your FM radio and replace them with a single unit.  Surely that saves space.
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SecretSquirrel
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:21 am

ludi wrote:
SecretSquirrel wrote:
ludi wrote:
Once I saw frumper15's Crutchfield link, I got clued into the right search terms, which are (apparently) "micro receiver."  Lo and behold:

https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-CRX-332BL ... o+receiver
https://www.amazon.com/Sony-Bluetooth-S ... o+receiver
https://www.amazon.com/Theater-Receiver ... o+receiver


None of which accept any sort of digital in and only the Sony accepts analog in.

Ah, you're right. However, that was the cheaper end of the range -- search those same terms and there are more options with more features (but higher prices).


Yep. This thread does make me feel a bit better though. I'm ok if my unicorn doesn't exist, but I always have this feeling that it is just my Google foo that is failing. So far, everyone has hit on the same things I found. Right now, The Egg's suggestion of moving the FM receiver to the computer and removing that requirement from the amplifier has some promise. I have the equipment in house to try that out. I ordered the MCX to F adaper which should be here Friday. Now I just have to see if anyone has put together a decent "FM radio" gui front end for and of the Linux SDR packages.

--SS
 
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:34 am

DPete27 wrote:
SecretSquirrel wrote:
ludi wrote:
Once I saw frumper15's Crutchfield link, I got clued into the right search terms, which are (apparently) "micro receiver."  Lo and behold:

https://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-CRX-332BL ... o+receiver
https://www.amazon.com/Sony-Bluetooth-S ... o+receiver
https://www.amazon.com/Theater-Receiver ... o+receiver


None of which accept any sort of digital in and only the Sony accepts analog in.

All 3 accept USB inputs.  That's digital.  
Other than that, I'm staying out of this bc I'm still confused what you want in a product and what you're intending to keep/get rid of in your existing setup.  Most recievers these days have an AM/FM tuner built in.  So it makes sense to me to get rid of your amp AND your FM radio and replace them with a single unit.  Surely that saves space.


The JVC RX-884V is a 5.1 A/V receiver from the late 90s. Get rid of it. Replace with a "class-T" amplifier with a built in FM tuner, DAC with optical SPDIF input, and Aux analog in. You can find class-T amps with FM tuners (that look like the bastard child of a 1985 CB radio and an cheap WalMart car audio amp) and ones that have DACs w/ optical SPDIF in, but not both apparently. The reason for going class-T was for size and increased efficiency as compared to class-AB.

--SS
 
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:43 am

Is this a winner?
Yamaha CRX-N560BL Network CD Receiver (Black) B&H # YACRXN560BL MFR # CRX-N560BL - In stock for $450
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... eiver.html



SecretSquirrel wrote:
0) digital amp -- class D, class T, whatever you want to call it
YES - 64W Digital Stereo Amplifier
1) two channels -- No point in paying for channels I'll never use
YES
2) optical input -- no worries about hum or other noise
YES-
1x Digital Coaxial In
1x Digital Optical In

3) FM receiver -- yes, I still listen to the radio on occasion and online streams suck
YES - Tuner -FM with 30 presets
4) AUX input -- the need to plug a random audio source in comes up enough that this is desirable.
YES - 1x RCA Stereo Audio In
1x 3.5 mm Stereo Audio In




Did you give a budget, cause if not, this looks like everything you want, and then some.
Even the size is small, and I found a review.
http://www.hifi-review.net/103-yamaha-crx-n560d.html
 
Captain Ned
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:52 am

That unicorn has been well and truly bagged.

Good on 'ya, mate.
What we have today is way too much pluribus and not enough unum.
 
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Re: In search of a unicorn...

Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:09 pm

Dposcorp wrote:
Is this a winner?
Yamaha CRX-N560BL Network CD Receiver (Black) B&H # YACRXN560BL MFR # CRX-N560BL - In stock for $450
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/ ... eiver.html



SecretSquirrel wrote:
0) digital amp -- class D, class T, whatever you want to call it
YES - 64W Digital Stereo Amplifier
1) two channels -- No point in paying for channels I'll never use
YES
2) optical input -- no worries about hum or other noise
YES-
1x Digital Coaxial In
1x Digital Optical In

3) FM receiver -- yes, I still listen to the radio on occasion and online streams suck
YES - Tuner -FM with 30 presets
4) AUX input -- the need to plug a random audio source in comes up enough that this is desirable.
YES - 1x RCA Stereo Audio In
1x 3.5 mm Stereo Audio In




Did you give a budget, cause if not, this looks like everything you want, and then some.
Even the size is small, and I found a review.
http://www.hifi-review.net/103-yamaha-crx-n560d.html


Never underestimate the power of gerbildom. :) Congrats on finding something that actually meets all the requirements.

Can't say it's a decent value unfortunately. But, at least there is something out there. <rant>I really hate it when marketers get ahold of the specs. 32W+32W when it AC power draw is is 44W. Does not compute. In reality its more like a 15W+15W amplifier, especially give that their 0.05% THD number is at 12.5W output power, and only at 1kHz at that. *sigh*</rant>.

-SS
 
Dposcorp
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2771
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2001 7:00 pm
Location: Detroit, Michigan

Re: In search of a unicorn...

Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:40 pm

Just send me your old set up when u upgrade, and we will be even :)

By the way, Best Buy near me has it in stock with speakers, so you could at least play with it in person.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/yamaha-64w- ... AkYn8P8HAQ


Edit to say I just saved you money and found a you tube review :)

http://www.sears.com/yamaha-crx-n560bl- ... lsrc=aw.ds

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing ... ition=used

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YulRrCxiRPY

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