Personal computing discussed

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SecretSquirrel
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New (old) toy...

Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:46 pm

New to me...
Image

Yamaha AW4416. 16 channel digital recorder with 44 mixing channels and 8 analog+2 digital input channels. Need to take the case off and give it a good cleaning, but other than missing one knob, its in great shape.

--SS
 
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Re: New (old) toy...

Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:52 pm

But it takes up sooo much space! :D
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SecretSquirrel
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Re: New (old) toy...

Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:03 pm

yogibbear wrote:
But it takes up sooo much space! :D


It's not light either, but I couldn't justify three times as much for an SD card version. I don't do enough audio work. But I do need at least 8 analog channels in. I was looking at getting a broken Tascam DP32SD and fixing it, but it ended up going for more than I was willing to drop on a broken piece of equipment. Nearly what I paid for this one.

--SS
 
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Re: New (old) toy...

Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:05 am

This is the the kind of stuff that makes me wanna say old school is cool!
 
SecretSquirrel
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Re: New (old) toy...

Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:07 am

seankay wrote:
This is the the kind of stuff that makes me wanna say old school is cool!


Didn't have a lot of time to play with it this weekend. My niece was visiting, and we got a new dog,

It may be "old school", but the core technology isn't really out of date. It's got 24bit ADCs in it. It's biggest limitation is you have to use CD-RWs to get recordings onto a computer. No removable media and no USB interface. Once I get it cleaned up, I'm going to replace the fan with a newer quieter one and the HDD with something solid state. It uses a 2.5" IDE drive and there are SSDs that are known to work with it. Might also try an IDE to CF adapter.

Now, I just need to get a video of the faders doing "the wave".... :lol:
--SS
 
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Re: New (old) toy...

Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:50 am

Okay, I just GIS'd some pics of that beastie and I see "digital stereo In/Out" jacks on the rear. Is that only a passthrough for a digital source, or you can you take a mix output from there?
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SecretSquirrel
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Re: New (old) toy...

Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:18 am

ludi wrote:
Okay, I just GIS'd some pics of that beastie and I see "digital stereo In/Out" jacks on the rear. Is that only a passthrough for a digital source, or you can you take a mix output from there?


I believe that you can route the digital in to the recording mix and any of the busses, including the master mix, to the digital outputs. But, I'm just starting to learn where everything is hidden in the myriad of control screens. Unfortunately I am traveling this week so I won't get to play with it more until next weekend. :cry:

--SS
 
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Re: New (old) toy...

Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:31 am

SecretSquirrel wrote:
seankay wrote:
This is the the kind of stuff that makes me wanna say old school is cool!


Didn't have a lot of time to play with it this weekend.  My niece was visiting, and we got a new dog,

It may be "old school", but the core technology isn't really out of date.  It's got 24bit ADCs in it.  It's biggest limitation is you have to use CD-RWs to get recordings onto a computer.  No removable media and no USB interface.  Once I get it cleaned up, I'm going to replace the fan with a newer quieter one and the HDD with something solid state.  It uses a 2.5" IDE drive and there are SSDs that are known to work with it.  Might also try an IDE to CF adapter.  

Now, I just need to get a video of the faders doing "the wave"....   :lol:
--SS

That's sound even better to me. It only looks classic which is fantastic :D
 
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Re: New (old) toy...

Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:34 am

A great bit of kit, as you say mate in fantastic shape. Is it the 4416 or the 4416A? 

I know the A was for ATAPI, where they replaced the 50pin SCSI CD writer with an ATAPI one, and I think you could use a modular rack after you cut the fascia a bit to replace it with a HDD caddy. Not sure if this works on the SCSI model?

I've got a few hours on these, they are still capable of producing a great recording and are as reliable as an old boot - if you don't mind a bit of a whir :)

Enjoy!
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SecretSquirrel
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Re: New (old) toy...

Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:08 am

juzz86 wrote:
A great bit of kit, as you say mate in fantastic shape. Is it the 4416 or the 4416A? 

I know the A was for ATAPI, where they replaced the 50pin SCSI CD writer with an ATAPI one, and I think you could use a modular rack after you cut the fascia a bit to replace it with a HDD caddy. Not sure if this works on the SCSI model?

I've got a few hours on these, they are still capable of producing a great recording and are as reliable as an old boot - if you don't mind a bit of a whir :)

Enjoy!


I believe it is the SCSI version.
 
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Re: New (old) toy...

Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:09 am

Looks like there are some SCSI external HDD caddies that might work anyway? Interesting.
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SecretSquirrel
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Re: New (old) toy...

Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:35 am

juzz86 wrote:
Looks like there are some SCSI external HDD caddies that might work anyway? Interesting.


Shame I disposed of all my old SCSI drives when I moved last year... :-?
 
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Re: New (old) toy...

Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:10 pm

Always the way. Sit in the shed for 10 years untouched and then one clean-up you look at them and say 'I'm never going to use these, they can go'. Within weeks you need them. Old man Murphy strikes again.
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SecretSquirrel
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Re: New (old) toy...

Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:31 pm

I ordered the missing pan knob. A whopping $2.50 shipped. Since it's a long weekend and the electronics workspace upstairs is starting be look like a usable space, I might take it apart for cleaning this weekend. It is rather sticky in several places. Some of it looks like tape or some other adhesive residue and some of it is just the aged rubberized plastic around the faders.

Or, I may take some time to play with it. Midi cables should be waiting for me when I get home. I picked up a Creative EMU xMidi right before I left and a MOTU Midi Express at the same time I got the 4416.

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Re: New (old) toy...

Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:57 pm

SecretSquirrel wrote:
ludi wrote:
Okay, I just GIS'd some pics of that beastie and I see "digital stereo In/Out" jacks on the rear. Is that only a passthrough for a digital source, or you can you take a mix output from there?


I believe that you can route the digital in to the recording mix and any of the busses, including the master mix, to the digital outputs. But, I'm just starting to learn where everything is hidden in the myriad of control screens. Unfortunately I am traveling this week so I won't get to play with it more until next weekend. :cry:

--SS


Got a bit of time playing with it today and confirmed you can patch just about any signal you want to the digital out: any input, any mix bus, the stereo mix, any recorded track. It's rather flexible actually.

Embarrassingly, it did take me a while to figure out why it wouldn't start recording... Clock doesn't start rolling when you're set as an MTC slave with no master. :oops:

--SS
 
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Re: New (old) toy...

Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:16 am

For the hard drive, it maybe wiser to go the solid state route. There are several SCSI-to-CF adapters out there but CF cards are starting to become harder to find. There are 50 pin SCSI to SD card adapters that can provide 10 MB/s while emulating a SCSI-2 drive. SD cards aren't going away anytime soon.
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SecretSquirrel
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Re: New (old) toy...

Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:40 pm

the wrote:
For the hard drive, it maybe wiser to go the solid state route. There are several SCSI-to-CF adapters out there but CF cards are starting to become harder to find. There are 50 pin SCSI to SD card adapters that can provide 10 MB/s while emulating a SCSI-2 drive. SD cards aren't going away anytime soon.


That's actually pretty cool. The internal drive is IDE. I've got an IDE to CF adapter, but it's a 40 pin, 3.5" adapter. I don't think I have a 44 pin mail to 40 pin female adapter though. I'll have to check. Being able to export to an external solid state device would be nice. Especially if I can coax my Linux box into reading it.

--SS
 
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Re: New (old) toy...

Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:31 am

SecretSquirrel wrote:
Being able to export to an external solid state device would be nice. Especially if I can coax my Linux box into reading it.

Linux can read practically anything; as long as they are not using some weird proprietary format it should be possible?
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Re: New (old) toy...

Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:11 pm

I spent some more time this weekend "goofing off" with the 4416. Midi connectivity works. I can control Audacity with the 4416 and vice versa, at least for transport actions. I haven't gone to the trouble of getting the faders setup. I did, however, do something totally useless with it today...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gs9YkXEA38o

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Re: New (old) toy...

Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:29 pm

Uh oh, #16 is sticking...
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SecretSquirrel
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Re: New (old) toy...

Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:20 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Uh oh, #16 is sticking...


Several of them are slightly sticky, but 16 is the worst when really exercised. None of them feel particularly sticky when moved manually, though they aren't the smoothest either. I'm wondering if 16 is more slip in the drive than it is sticky. Either way, they we all get a good cleaning when I get around to taking the thing apart.

I did replace the internal hard drive today. That reduced the noise levels significantly. It had an old 12GB IBM Travelstar in it that was quire noisy.

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Re: New (old) toy...

Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:18 pm

Today has been a "that's good.... but that's bad..." day.

Good: A CF card in a CF to IDE adapter works great for the internal drive. Identified and formatted at power up.
Bad: Internal drive is not a standard files system. Looking at the image from the CF card, it appears to Compact File Set archive format laid out on the bare disk.
Good: I've got a utility that will extract the tracks from the CFS.
Bad: I haven't figured out the offsets+incantation to get it to read the image from the internal drive.

So, it's a start. Getting data off this thing in a rapid manner will determine whether I keep it or just refurb and sell it. Pulled all the fader caps and various knobs off and ran them through the washing machine today. They look much better now. Started the tear down as well. Faders are definitely dirty. Several families of dust bunnies appear to have taken up residence....

--SS
 
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Re: New (old) toy...

Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:10 am

Disassembled one of the faders today, as a test. Unfortunately I can't take the housing apart with the fader on the circuit board. I don't have a tool that can get in between them to release the clips holding the housing together.

Image

This is the master stereo mix fader.

Image

This one wasn't really sticking and it's not horribly gunked up inside, but you can certainly see grime on the inside of the top of the housing.

Image

There is also a dust bunny riding along on the wipers.

Image

Tonight I get to unsolder and disassemble 16 more. :o The housing top and slider will get a bath in Simple Green, followed by a good rinse in denatured alcohol. The board, belt, and housing bottom will just be wiped down well with denatured alcohol. After that, the housing top, belt, and slider will get lubricated with a "dry" teflon lubricating spray, and the whole thing re-assembled. Things I do for "fun"... :P

I did learn something else today. The hot-air station sets off the smoke alarms in the house. They went off about 20 seconds after the first picture was taken. Don't know if it is because the hot-air station hasn't been used much and the heating element is still cooking off some of it's coating, or what. Man they are loud though.

--SS
 
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Re: New (old) toy...

Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:10 am

Got everything torn down and cleaned this weekend. With the exception of the fader board, everything is back together. The faders are all clean, but I still need to lube them and re-assemble. Takes a surprising long time when there are 17 of everything.

Image

The wipers on the faders are definitely showing wear. The end of the wiper has a little V shape in the metal fingers that rides against the resistive trace on the board. Several of them have worn through the point of the V. Unfortunately, finding replacement faders is damn near impossible, at least for these. When I put it back together, I'm going to mark the worn ones so that if I come across spare parts, replacement will be easy.

Still up in the air as to whether I will keep this thing. It's only real down side is the inability to easily get recordings onto the computer. Still working on solving that.

--SS
 
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Re: New (old) toy...

Mon Sep 12, 2016 11:18 am

SecretSquirrel wrote:
The wipers on the faders are definitely showing wear.  The end of the wiper has a little V shape in the metal fingers that rides against the resistive trace on the board.  Several of them have worn through the point of the V.

Got a close-up picture of one of those?  Maybe with a coin for size reference?  I'm curious what you're up against.
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SecretSquirrel
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Re: New (old) toy...

Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:02 pm

ludi wrote:
SecretSquirrel wrote:
The wipers on the faders are definitely showing wear.  The end of the wiper has a little V shape in the metal fingers that rides against the resistive trace on the board.  Several of them have worn through the point of the V.

Got a close-up picture of one of those?  Maybe with a coin for size reference?  I'm curious what you're up against.


Image

You can kind of see the metal fingers attaches to the black body of the wiper assembly. The whole assembly is probably 15-20mm across. Each of the metal fingers is maybe 0.5mm or so. Tiny and fragile. While not hard to take apart, these faders are really designed to be rebuilt, best I can tell. So it's not like I can just buy the wiper assembly by itself and the closest match I have found for a replacement fader is about $20 a pop. Not gonna spend that x17.

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Re: New (old) toy...

Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:20 pm

Yeah, that would be tricky thing to re-fabricate. I'm trying to think of any alternate switch or assembly where I've seen a wiper like that which could be cannibalized, but not coming up with much.
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Re: New (old) toy...

Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:49 pm

Got everything back together. Only a few extra screws too! :o :wink: Hit the power button and up it boots. All the lights come on and it's ready to go. And.... several faders still stick on occasion and one, used to be #16 sticks all the time. Bah! All the mixing channels work though, so it's just the automation that will remain problematic. Probably will end us putting in back on the market as I don't feel like sinking the money into it to fix all the faders since it falls short in the "getting recordings onto the computer" section.

In the mean time, it will get some use this weekend, just using the mixing section. I've got the sound system for a big party running through it. Two separate music sources are routed in as stereo channels and duplicated. Input 1 is sent to channels 1+2 and 9+10. Input 2 is sent to channels 3+4 and 11+12. A mic input is routed to channels 5 and 14. Channels 1-4,7 are mixed onto busses 1+2 an channels 9-12,15 are mixed onto busses 3+4. Busses 1-4 are then sent out on aux send ports and looped back to inputs: bus 1+2=>channels 5+6 and bus 3+4=>channels 13+14. Channel 5+6 are then sent to the digital output and channels 13+14 are sent to the analog out. This gives me two stereo and one mono input with independent selection and volume for two different outputs. One output will feed inside and one the deck outside.

--SS

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