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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:23 am

End User wrote:
Apple may have been the first to eliminate the 3.5mm jack but USB Type-C will kill it:

Device manufacturers can eliminate the need for multiple ports and efficiently deliver data, power and video over a single connector with USB Type-C and USB Power Delivery.

http://www.usb.org/press/USB-IF_Press_R ... _FINAL.pdf

Delivering audio and power over USB has been a standard for years already, and video over USB is a niche use case. I don't see how this materially changes things unless you're dealing with a VR headset.

The 3.5mm jack will be around for a long time yet, because it "just works".
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:09 am

LostCat wrote:
Replacing a single purpose jack that a lot of people don't use with a multipurpose connector that everyone does.


That's utterly false, and this small chart will show you exactly why they are doing it:
Image

See, wired headphones still account for the vast majority of headphone sales, but wireless is obviously much more profitable, with their 17% share making more money than the 83% that wired does.. Apple, owning a headphone company stands to make big profit by killing off the 3.5mm jack and forcing people to buy lightning or wireless.

So rather than "replacing a single purpose jack that a lot of people don't use", it's "replacing a standard jack that a lot of people use with your own proprietary/more profitable connector". (Proprietary being lightning, more profitable being lightning and/or bluetooth).

Source
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:20 am

Not to mention, you get the "charging the phone while listening" conundrum if you're using wired headphones, and the fact that wireless headphones/earbuds have built-in planned obsolescence since the batteries will eventually stop holding a charge. More expensive *and* I have to replace them (or have them serviced) in 3 years? No thanks!
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:22 am

jihadjoe wrote:
LostCat wrote:
Replacing a single purpose jack that a lot of people don't use with a multipurpose connector that everyone does.


That's utterly false, and this small chart will show you exactly why they are doing it:
Image

See, wired headphones still account for the vast majority of headphone sales, but wireless is obviously much more profitable, with their 17% share making more money than the 83% that wired does.. Apple, owning a headphone company stands to make big profit by killing off the 3.5mm jack and forcing people to buy lightning or wireless.

So rather than "replacing a single purpose jack that a lot of people don't use", it's "replacing a standard jack that a lot of people use with your own proprietary/more profitable connector". (Proprietary being lightning, more profitable being lightning and/or bluetooth).

Source

While I agree with this analysis, there is more to the story.
The Verge wrote:
As pictured above, you can see a piece of plastic sits behind the ingress protection (waterproofing!), right where the headphone jack would have been. And ([size=120][font=Helvetica, sans-serif]update!) according to Apple it's a "barometric vent." Apparently adding all the waterproofing to the iPhone 7 and 7 Plus meant that it was more of a sealed box, and so to be able to have an accurate and working barometer, Apple used that space. The barometer is the thing that allows a phone to measure altitude, and Apple points out that on the iPhone 7 it can measure even minor changes like climbing a flight of stairs.[/font][/size]

Apple has also been pretty consistent in arguing that the removal of the headphone jack isn't just about the precise physical space that's right there on the bottom-left of the phone. As [color=#fa4b2a][size=120][font=Helvetica, sans-serif]BuzzFeed reported, Apple says it's more about the entire thing — the Taptic engine, the larger battery, easier waterproofing, the top speaker, the antennas, etc.[/font][/size][/color]


http://www.theverge.com/2016/9/16/12941040/iphone-7-teardown-plastic-behind-where-headphone-jack-used-to-be
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:31 am

Do you REALLY believe they had no choice but to put the barometric vent where the headphone jack was because they couldn't figure out any other way? I call BS on that.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:37 am

just brew it! wrote:
Do you REALLY believe they had no choice but to put the barometric vent where the headphone jack was because they couldn't figure out any other way? I call BS on that.

Are you an engineer?  Do you *know* that?  

If you'll notice I also said I agree with the analysis that the change was made at least in part due to monetary reasons.  No doubt Apple stands to make more money as a result of this move.  
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:49 am

techguy wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Do you REALLY believe they had no choice but to put the barometric vent where the headphone jack was because they couldn't figure out any other way? I call BS on that.

Are you an engineer?  Do you *know* that?

Well of course I don't know for sure, I don't work for Apple. But it strains credulity to near the breaking point. Apple has a lot of smart engineers working for them, and if they were told to fit the new sensor in without removing the 3.5mm they would've almost certainly have figured it out.

More likely it was something along the lines of: "Hey we need this new sensor, and we've been wanting to get rid of the 3.5mm jack anyway to encourage people to buy more of our Beats Bluetooth headsets. If we just swap the 3.5mm for the barometric sensor it requires less rearrangement of the other innards, and when people complain we can claim we had to do it because waterproofing. People like waterproof phones. Sounds like a winning strategy!"
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:32 pm

techguy wrote:
Are you an engineer?  Do you *know* that?  

(1) Yes; (2) No; but also (3) I've enough experience with both mobile devices and corporate marketing strategies to reasonably separate a technical argument from a red herring.  The only two subsystems I know of that are absolutely constraining to the overall device design, are the radio antennas, and presence or absence of a user-replaceable battery.   The rest can and is regularly juggled around the logic board layout and chassis perimeter to support other design goals.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:45 pm

just brew it! wrote:
End User wrote:
Apple may have been the first to eliminate the 3.5mm jack but USB Type-C will kill it:

Device manufacturers can eliminate the need for multiple ports and efficiently deliver data, power and video over a single connector with USB Type-C and USB Power Delivery.

http://www.usb.org/press/USB-IF_Press_R ... _FINAL.pdf

Delivering audio and power over USB has been a standard for years already, and video over USB is a niche use case. I don't see how this materially changes things unless you're dealing with a VR headset.

The 3.5mm jack will be around for a long time yet, because it "just works".

Nope:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Mot ... 587.0.html

Type-C marks the end of the 3.5mm jack.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:11 pm

End User wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
End User wrote:
Apple may have been the first to eliminate the 3.5mm jack but USB Type-C will kill it:


http://www.usb.org/press/USB-IF_Press_R ... _FINAL.pdf

Delivering audio and power over USB has been a standard for years already, and video over USB is a niche use case. I don't see how this materially changes things unless you're dealing with a VR headset.

The 3.5mm jack will be around for a long time yet, because it "just works".

Nope:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Mot ... 587.0.html

Type-C marks the end of the 3.5mm jack.

Nope, we will see phones with both the 3.5mm jack and USB Type-C ports.
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:18 pm

whm1974 wrote:
End User wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Delivering audio and power over USB has been a standard for years already, and video over USB is a niche use case. I don't see how this materially changes things unless you're dealing with a VR headset.

The 3.5mm jack will be around for a long time yet, because it "just works".

Nope:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-Mot ... 587.0.html

Type-C marks the end of the 3.5mm jack.

Nope, we will see phones with both the 3.5mm jack and USB Type-C ports.

I don't see that on the Lenovo.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:33 pm

Oh, great... so Apple and Lenovo have both opted to ditch the 3.5mm, but have gone with DIFFERENT standards for their digital audio jack?

Looks like the Lenovo also suffers from the "can't use the headphone jack and charge the phone at the same time" issue.

Idiotic.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:40 am

Apple can probably get away with it, since Apple customers have a longstanding fetish for obscure, generally-incompatible accessories and cables. Lenovo, not so much.
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:49 am

I agree with the fact that Lenovo certainly can't get away with it like Apple can!
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:55 am

just brew it! wrote:
Oh, great... so Apple and Lenovo have both opted to ditch the 3.5mm, but have gone with DIFFERENT standards for their digital audio jack?

Looks like the Lenovo also suffers from the "can't use the headphone jack and charge the phone at the same time" issue.

Idiotic.

Haven't been following very closely, does the USB-IF's proposal allow audio and charging at the same time?
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:55 am

whm1974 wrote:
Nope, we will see phones with both the 3.5mm jack and USB Type-C ports.

It's called a Nexus 6P.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:47 am

Captain Ned wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Nope, we will see phones with both the 3.5mm jack and USB Type-C ports.

It's called a Nexus 6P.

Or a Google Pixel/Pixel XL. :)

The shift to USB Type-C as the only port will happen over the next few years. iPhone 7 sales alone show that consumers are not put off by the lack the 3.5mm jack. Apple will take the heat for the switchover. Other manufactures will quietly kill the 3.5mm jack a year or two from now.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:53 am

just brew it! wrote:
and the fact that wireless headphones/earbuds have built-in planned obsolescence since the batteries will eventually stop holding a charge. More expensive *and* I have to replace them (or have them serviced) in 3 years? No thanks!

So true yet I will never go back to wired headphones as far as my mobile needs are concerned. Bluetooth all the way.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:55 am

End User wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Nope, we will see phones with both the 3.5mm jack and USB Type-C ports.

It's called a Nexus 6P.

Or a Google Pixel/Pixel XL. :)

The shift to USB Type-C as the only port will happen over the next few years. iPhone 7 sales alone show that consumers are not put off by the lack the 3.5mm jack. Apple will take the heat for the switchover. Other manufactures will quietly kill the 3.5mm jack a year or two from now.

I think it will take longer then that, and that a few manufacturers at least will produce phones with both features for a long time.
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:20 am

End User wrote:
The shift to USB Type-C as the only port will happen over the next few years. iPhone 7 sales alone show that consumers are not put off by the lack the 3.5mm jack. Apple will take the heat for the switchover. Other manufactures will quietly kill the 3.5mm jack a year or two from now.

It might start the ball rolling, but I imagine at least a few competitors will use the inclusion of 3.5mm as an anti-Apple selling point.  Others also don't have as much an incentive as Apple, unless they also have large headphone divisions.
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 11:31 am

At the end of the day the question is simply will the 3.5mm jack exist on cellphones or not. I think it will, but whether it is internally or through an adapter, I don't know. I honestly will wait and see. The truth is that sales of the iPhone 7 really aren't indicative of anything WRT 3.5mm simply because of the way Apple's customers buy products. The real test will be long term and if the wireless earpods sell well, and if there's a backlash against Apple after they've had to live without the port. There never was any chance that backlash would affect sales ahead of experiencing lack of a port.

There's virtually no chance of other industries pulling out of the game though. Plus, I just don't see wireless audio taking off and completely leaving wired headphones behind for engineering reasons relating to how HARD it is to make damn good headphones even without dealing with the additional issues that wireless introduces. Same with how I don't see S/PDIF disappearing anytime soon.
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:02 pm

End User wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
and the fact that wireless headphones/earbuds have built-in planned obsolescence since the batteries will eventually stop holding a charge. More expensive *and* I have to replace them (or have them serviced) in 3 years? No thanks!

So true yet I will never go back to wired headphones as far as my mobile needs are concerned. Bluetooth all the way.

I still fail to understand how your (perfectly reasonable) decision to switch to wireless means that every device in the world needs to ditch 3.5mm and it can't happen soon enough? Why this overwhelming need to remove options?
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sat Oct 08, 2016 6:43 pm

whm1974 wrote:
I think it will take longer then that, and that a few manufacturers at least will produce phones with both features for a long time.

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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sat Oct 08, 2016 6:50 pm

K-L-Waster wrote:
End User wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
and the fact that wireless headphones/earbuds have built-in planned obsolescence since the batteries will eventually stop holding a charge. More expensive *and* I have to replace them (or have them serviced) in 3 years? No thanks!

So true yet I will never go back to wired headphones as far as my mobile needs are concerned. Bluetooth all the way.

I still fail to understand how your (perfectly reasonable) decision to switch to wireless means that every device in the world needs to ditch 3.5mm and it can't happen soon enough? Why this overwhelming need to remove options?

I was really hammering on wired headphones in that post.

As far as cabled headphones go both USB and Lightning have us covered. Time to move on.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:04 pm

Ikepuska wrote:
At the end of the day the question is simply will the 3.5mm jack exist on cellphones or not. I think it will, but whether it is internally or through an adapter, I don't know.

The mobile phone industry will quickly abandon the on device 3.5mm port. The USB Audio Device Class 3.0 specification, which standardizes audio over USB Type-C interface, was the final nail in coffin for the 3.5 mm jack in the smartphone market. The change has already begun.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:17 pm

End User wrote:
Ikepuska wrote:
At the end of the day the question is simply will the 3.5mm jack exist on cellphones or not. I think it will, but whether it is internally or through an adapter, I don't know.

The mobile phone industry will quickly abandon the on device 3.5mm port. The USB Audio Device Class 3.0 specification, which standardizes audio over USB Type-C interface, was the final nail in coffin for the 3.5 mm jack in the smartphone market. The change has already begun.

And the Pixel has both a 3.4mm jack and USB Type-C audio support.
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:54 pm

I think the Pixel is a bit overpriced, but damn if Google didn't nail it with the press material.

Image
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:39 am

End User wrote:
Ikepuska wrote:
At the end of the day the question is simply will the 3.5mm jack exist on cellphones or not. I think it will, but whether it is internally or through an adapter, I don't know.

The mobile phone industry will quickly abandon the on device 3.5mm port. 

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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:25 am

End User wrote:
As far as cabled headphones go both USB and Lightning have us covered. Time to move on.

It adds cost, limits consumer choice, and given there are two different standards, it ties the headphones to being used with only a subset of the devices out there. What if I have one device that uses Lightning and one that uses USB? Do I need two sets of headphones? Extra adapters? Yuck.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:36 am

just brew it! wrote:
End User wrote:
As far as cabled headphones go both USB and Lightning have us covered. Time to move on.

It adds cost, limits consumer choice, and given there are two different standards, it ties the headphones to being used with only a subset of the devices out there. What if I have one device that uses Lightning and one that uses USB? Do I need two sets of headphones? Extra adapters? Yuck.

And the 3.5" audio jack does the job just fine, no need to replace it.
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