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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:08 am

End User wrote:
Frugal wrote:
And how is the 3.5mm stereo plug a poor connector design? I'm not saying it's perfect, but please enlighten us about what is wrong with it.

It is redundant. Everything can be done with either Type-C or Lightning.

And with that, the thread has been rebooted, with no lessons learned from the prior discussion.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:22 am

just brew it! wrote:
Buy a phone that gives you the connectivity you want

I use Bluetooth headphones so I don't share your obsession with the 3.5mm port.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:26 am

End User wrote:
strangerguy wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
And besides, why replace a perfect set headphones?

Sure will do, once all headphones sound the same and money falls from the sky.

My bad. I just looked into a bunch of unboxing videos and was shocked to find out that the bulk of the Android phones I checked did not ship with headphones. The only one I found in my brief search was the Galaxy S7. Interesting. Price sensitivity is definitely a thing on the Android side with, and this is a guess, low end phones such as whm1974's being the majority of phones sold. Removal of the 3.5mm port on Android devices is not going to happen anytime soon.

It is crazy how cheap Android phones can get. My Jaybird X2 Bluetooth headphones are more than whm1974's phone.

The 3.5mm is definitely redundant on Apple products. Apple can kill the 3.5 mm port because a) they ship decent headphones with every iPhone b) their customer base can afford to buy Lightning or Bluetooth headphones.

All I'm seeing is somebody who can't win technical arguments on actual merits and proceed to engage in irrelevant personal attacks based on personal wealth.

And I'm speaking as an iPhone user.

It's even more funnier considering a large part of people who cares about audio quality choose iPhones for best overall in class DAC + 3.5mm implementation.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:47 am

End User wrote:
My bad. I just looked into a bunch of unboxing videos and was shocked to find out that the bulk of the Android phones I checked did not ship with headphones. The only one I found in my brief search was the Galaxy S7. Interesting. Price sensitivity is definitely a thing on the Android side with, and this is a guess, low end phones such as whm1974's being the majority of phones sold. Removal of the 3.5mm port on Android devices is not going to happen anytime soon.

It is crazy how cheap Android phones can get. My Jaybird X2 Bluetooth headphones are more than whm1974's phone.

The 3.5mm is definitely redundant on Apple products. Apple can kill the 3.5 mm port because a) they ship decent headphones with every iPhone b) their customer base can afford to buy Lightning or Bluetooth headphones.

Compose this with the rest of the thread and you get a thinly veiled "anyone poor enough to care about the disappearance of the 3.5mm port is irrelevant."

There are so many things wrong with this that I genuinely have no idea where to start.

End User wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Buy a phone that gives you the connectivity you want

I use Bluetooth headphones so I don't share your obsession with the 3.5mm port.

That's not how this works. *You* are the one still saying it needs to die despite lots of legit logic brought against you. *You* have to back up that position well enough that we can sympathize with it if you want to get anywhere. If you'd already won the argument or something, you'd have a point. Acting like you already won when you haven't even bothered to bring logic just makes you look like an ass if everyone else is paying even the barest minimum of attention.
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Tue Sep 06, 2016 5:28 am

End User wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Buy a phone that gives you the connectivity you want

I use Bluetooth headphones so I don't share your obsession with the 3.5mm port.

This just flips the whole problem on its head. It's another interface that adds cost and/or reduces fidelity, limits your selection, and doesn't work with devices that have a 3.5mm port unless you buy an active adapter.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:01 am

End User wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Buy a phone that gives you the connectivity you want

I use Bluetooth headphones so I don't share your obsession with the 3.5mm port.

Good for you! Enjoy your laggy, battery-powered, overpriced sound.
I do have a handful of questions for you though:
  • How do you connect to those external speakers, third-part audio docks etc?
  • How do you connect to a line-in on any vehicle that doesn't have bluetooth?
  • How do you use your $400 audiophile headphones?
  • Do you now have to carry another set of non-bluetooth headphones for you laptop/tablet/other?
  • What do you do when your bluetooth headphones run out of juice?
  • Do your bluetooth headphones sound as nice as analogue headphones using your phone's DAC?
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:54 am

synthtel2 wrote:
End User wrote:
My bad. I just looked into a bunch of unboxing videos and was shocked to find out that the bulk of the Android phones I checked did not ship with headphones. The only one I found in my brief search was the Galaxy S7. Interesting. Price sensitivity is definitely a thing on the Android side with, and this is a guess, low end phones such as whm1974's being the majority of phones sold. Removal of the 3.5mm port on Android devices is not going to happen anytime soon.

It is crazy how cheap Android phones can get. My Jaybird X2 Bluetooth headphones are more than whm1974's phone.

The 3.5mm is definitely redundant on Apple products. Apple can kill the 3.5 mm port because a) they ship decent headphones with every iPhone b) their customer base can afford to buy Lightning or Bluetooth headphones.

Compose this with the rest of the thread and you get a thinly veiled "anyone poor enough to care about the disappearance of the 3.5mm port is irrelevant."


I'm not poor myself, but I do live on a fixed income and there is no way I am going to buy new headphone(or for that matter Apple products) just because a few people are demanding that the just fine 3.5mm jack be ditched.
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:08 am

whm1974 wrote:
I'm not poor myself, but I do live on a fixed income and there is no way I am going to buy new headphone(or for that matter Apple products) just because a few people are demanding that the just fine 3.5mm jack be ditched.


You don't understand.

Bluetooth has a "richer, warmer" sound only when played by devices that don't have their aural profile contaminated by other icky holes in the device, a phenomenon which is only worsened when filthy peasants can be seen walking around using multi-port devices with archaic listening devices, disrupting auric harmony for everyone who actually matters.
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:33 am

Glorious wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
I'm not poor myself, but I do live on a fixed income and there is no way I am going to buy new headphone(or for that matter Apple products) just because a few people are demanding that the just fine 3.5mm jack be ditched.


You don't understand.

Bluetooth has a "richer, warmer" sound only when played by devices that don't have their aural profile contaminated by other icky holes in the device, a phenomenon which is only worsened when filthy peasants can be seen walking around using multi-port devices with archaic listening devices, disrupting auric harmony for everyone who actually matters.


I needed a good chuckle on a "virtual" Monday morning. :lol:

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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:11 pm

So in summary, and back to the active vs passive discussion.

It is theoretically possible, but not currently in spec to send pure modulated audio signals over USB C. You cannot do this over lightning because of the pinout. Which means by definition that you need a DAC either in the cable or in the headphones. Which means it's just one more part that you have less control over. People who spend good money on headphones don't want to buy integrated **** DACs that are built into their headphones, and Bluetooth has some serious and objectively measurable problems with sound quality.

As an additional issue, it increases the BOM for headphones drastically, which will have knock on effects. Which means $2 specials that I buy because I forgot my set and need some for the trip are gone.

At the end of the day, I strongly suspect that there is a not insignificant segment of the population that will actually have a problem with this. This is like the Mac Pro fiasco all over again.

ETA: Basically if you are the kind of person who likes Bluetooth headphones, you aren't the kind of person this will affect, so I would recommend you have some empathy for people whose needs and wants are different than your own. It's like saying that because you only drive pickup trucks, that getting rid of manual transmissions in sports cars is a great idea because you never use manual transmission in your pickups and what are those sports car drivers complaining about.
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:16 pm

The Apple faithful will buy it anyway. I suspect it will push quite a few people who are on the fence over to the Android camp though, or at least cause them to postpone upgrading their phone.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:20 pm

just brew it! wrote:
The Apple faithful will buy it anyway. I suspect it will push quite a few people who are on the fence over to the Android camp though, or at least cause them to postpone upgrading their phone.


While Apple has a stronger base of core customers than most, I know for a fact it's due to executives that a lot of companies have contracts for Iphones. And if lack of a 3.5mm jack causes their headphones or headsets that they like to use for conference calls to not work, I suspect strongly it'll create a knock on effect. A little bit of friction compounded over lots of people in an organization that has to spend money to change can very quickly become an obstacle
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:37 pm

just brew it! wrote:
The Apple faithful will buy it anyway. I suspect it will push quite a few people who are on the fence over to the Android camp though, or at least cause them to postpone upgrading their phone.

I've never considered myself "faithful" to Apple, but I have been happy with the iPhones I had. With yesterday's announcement, I decided to pick up an 6s and wait ~2 years. If the 3.5mm returns, good deal. If not, I'll be out.

My hope is that sales of the 7 tank compared to the 6s, and the 8 will return to sensibility.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:24 am

This  makes sense to me. Even I'm waiting for the results and will analyse how it is turning out to be!
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:24 pm

Oh, jeez... it didn't even occur to me that Apple would use the SAME Lightning jack as both the wired headphone port and the charging port.

So if you want to use headphones while charging your iPhone 7 you either must use Bluetooth headphones, or a splitter dongle. If your wired headphones are 3.5mm you also need a Lightning to 3.5mm dongle, in addition to the splitter dongle.

This is truly moronic.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:47 pm

Are we approaching "hockey puck" status yet?  I guess time will tell.

The biggest difference is that the iphone7 actually has some pretty good hardware.  It just seems like this deal about the headphone port was a fight with the designers and bean counters on one side, and the engineers on the other.  Clearly, the engineers lost.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:50 pm

superjawes wrote:
I've never considered myself "faithful" to Apple, but I have been happy with the iPhones I had.  With yesterday's announcement, I decided to pick up an 6s and wait ~2 years.  If the 3.5mm returns, good deal.  If not, I'll be out.

I plan to use mine until the bitter end (hopefully 5+ years like with the 4S). When the battery starts to go, I'll get it replaced.

I think we've rapidly hit the point of diminishing returns for smartphones, and I'm not sure if anyone in the industry has noticed. Unless another use-case is created (something with virtual reality?), I can't imagine why more processing power would be needed.
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:29 am

End User wrote:

It is crazy how cheap Android phones can get. My Jaybird X2 Bluetooth headphones are more than whm1974's phone.

Replacing cracked glass on a iphone costs more than whm1974's phone.
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:34 am

HERETIC wrote:
End User wrote:

It is crazy how cheap Android phones can get. My Jaybird X2 Bluetooth headphones are more than whm1974's phone.

Replacing cracked glass on a iphone costs more than whm1974's phone.

Which is a good reason by itself not to have an iPhone.
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:18 am

There is literally no value argument for having an expensive phone anymore; $150 will get you a phone that would have been considered flagship 3 years ago, and there are few, if any apps that genuinely need the CPU and GPU power of anything over $150 these days.

The only reason to spend more than that these days is:
1) Irrational desire to have the best, latest, regardless of need
2) A more expensive phone has a unique feature that you can't get on budget phones.

The iPhone7 has no USP. Removing the headphone port is literally the only change of note, and that's not exactly a feature.
The Samsung S7 Edge has no USP. The curved screen is quantifiably inferior to the flatter, higher-dpi screen in the normal S7

Phones have stopped evolving in huge leaps and bounds. We're now squarely in the era of tinkering and fettling with the same unchanged design. The reason there are differences now are because the manufacturers have run out of sensible ideas. Now they're just trying crazy ones to try and differentiate themselves from everything else on the market.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:26 am

The Egg wrote:
superjawes wrote:
I've never considered myself "faithful" to Apple, but I have been happy with the iPhones I had.  With yesterday's announcement, I decided to pick up an 6s and wait ~2 years.  If the 3.5mm returns, good deal.  If not, I'll be out.

I plan to use mine until the bitter end (hopefully 5+ years like with the 4S).  When the battery starts to go, I'll get it replaced.

I think we've rapidly hit the point of diminishing returns for smartphones, and I'm not sure if anyone in the industry has noticed.  Unless another use-case is created (something with virtual reality?), I can't imagine why more processing power would be needed.

The 1GB RAM on pre-6S devices will cripple performance much much earlier before hitting A7 and later SoC bottlenecks.

To me the most baffling thing about Apple is they have a world class SoC design team and an exclusive mobile OS yet they have never bothered to like develop first-party games to flex their SoC power and iOS exclusivity despite tens of billions of cash at hand. Speak about a huge missed opportunity.


Chrispy_ wrote:
There is literally no value argument for having an expensive phone anymore; $150 will get you a phone that would have been considered flagship 3 years ago, and there are few, if any apps that genuinely need the CPU and GPU power of anything over $150 these days.

The only reason to spend more than that these days is:
1) Irrational desire to have the best, latest, regardless of need
2) A more expensive phone has a unique feature that you can't get on budget phones.

The iPhone7 has no USP. Removing the headphone port is literally the only change of note, and that's not exactly a feature.
The Samsung S7 Edge has no USP. The curved screen is quantifiably inferior to the flatter, higher-dpi screen in the normal S7

Phones have stopped evolving in huge leaps and bounds. We're now squarely in the era of tinkering and fettling with the same unchanged design. The reason there are differences now are because the manufacturers have run out of sensible ideas. Now they're just trying crazy ones to try and differentiate themselves from everything else on the market.

Every smartphone vendor is trying out every crazy ideas because their margins per device are pure crap unless they are Apple. They vastly underestimated the rate of hardware commoditization of smartphones, where it went much, much faster than PCs did.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:35 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
There is literally no value argument for having an expensive phone anymore; $150 will get you a phone that would have been considered flagship 3 years ago, and there are few, if any apps that genuinely need the CPU and GPU power of anything over $150 these days.

Indeed. I picked up an LG G4 earlier this year, and it does everything I need and then some. Granted it's more than $150... but aside from unforeseen mishaps that result in its destruction, or lack of carrier support, I see no reason why I couldn't still be using this phone 4-5 years from now. It's even got a user-replaceable battery, so it doesn't have that all-too-common path to planned obsolescence.

I looked at the G5, and there was no compelling reason to get that over the G4. So I guess just like my PCs, I've settled into a mode of buying last year's tech, because it offers better bang-for-the-buck.

Chrispy_ wrote:
The iPhone7 has no USP.

Frikkin' TLAs. Had to look that one up. I initially thought the 'P' stood for "port", and was all like, "WTF?!?? They left something else off in addition to the headphone port?" :lol:
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:35 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Oh, jeez... it didn't even occur to me that Apple would use the SAME Lightning jack as both the wired headphone port and the charging port.

So if you want to use headphones while charging your iPhone 7 you either must use Bluetooth headphones, or a splitter dongle. If your wired headphones are 3.5mm you also need a Lightning to 3.5mm dongle, in addition to the splitter dongle.

This is truly moronic.

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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Sun Sep 11, 2016 9:29 pm

travbrad wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Oh, jeez... it didn't even occur to me that Apple would use the SAME Lightning jack as both the wired headphone port and the charging port.

So if you want to use headphones while charging your iPhone 7 you either must use Bluetooth headphones, or a splitter dongle. If your wired headphones are 3.5mm you also need a Lightning to 3.5mm dongle, in addition to the splitter dongle.

This is truly moronic.

Image

"It just works"*

*Provided you buy our $160 wireless headphones, after shelling out $650 for the phone itself.

Or maybe:

"It just works"*

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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:46 am

As much as I have analyzed it, they just want to bring the wireless culture in already and definitely they would love to be called the pioneers!
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:55 am

seankay wrote:
As much as I have analyzed it, they just want to bring the wireless culture in already and definitely they would love to be called the pioneers!


That's great in principle, but the other pioneer moves, like moving away from floppies or DVD drives happened because there were measurably, objectively BETTER technologies, and they were the first to accept that technology had moved on. Wireless audio tech is NOT in that bucket by any conceivable stretch of the word. It has a different set of trade-offs. Contrast with DVDs and later thumb drives there were, for all intents and purposes, no trade-offs that came off as worse than the technology it replaced.
 
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:11 am

just brew it! wrote:
I suspect it will push quite a few people who are on the fence over to the Android camp though, or at least cause them to postpone upgrading their phone.


The only reason that the majority of people are kept away from Android is fragmentation.
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:17 am

tanker27 wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
I suspect it will push quite a few people who are on the fence over to the Android camp though, or at least cause them to postpone upgrading their phone.

The only reason that the majority of people are kept away from Android is fragmentation.

Why would the average user care?
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:21 am

Because they always want the latest update. Even the average user cares about this. Maybe not 100% but yes the majority does care.

Just look at what people say about carriers when it comes to updates. Some carriers don't even push them until months after they are released. Then they also have to deal with the hardware manufacturers who want to put their touches on said release.

Say what you will about Apple you cannot deny that when iOS10 drops the majority of its users will have it that day without delay. (barring over saturation of servers.)
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Re: Why hasn't the 3.5mm jack/port been shrunk?

Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:31 am

Ikepuska wrote:
It is theoretically possible, but not currently in spec to send pure modulated audio signals over USB C. You cannot do this over lightning because of the pinout. Which means by definition that you need a DAC either in the cable or in the headphones.


It's this aspect that takes the cake for me. Then throws that cake on the ground and treads all over it. This alone is highly suggestive that it's not about the asthetics (ie, having one centered do-everything port). It is about selling expensive DAC-laden accessories. And this after the sale of a phone that already arguably costs more than it should. Apple smart phone innovation has been reduced to a barely camouflage fleecing of their loyal customers.

Hope that works out well for 'em.

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