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chuckula
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:08 am

Waco, considering you like to go around making cryptic statements about how you supposedly know all this magical "secret" stuff about unpublished roadmaps that you can't tell us about and yet you immediately assume that nobody else know anything is just a little disingenuous.

So a guy who not only bought a over a hundred petaflops of compute power in a single purchase
but who has also been making large scale purchases of HPC equipment for years should be completely ignored since he can't possibly know anything?

Fine.

Given that you personally have bought basically zero major systems from any major vendor at all... Why should we believe you about any of your supposedly "secret" knowledge either?

As for "public roadmaps", those are subject to change. Hell, literally a few weeks ago you were going on about how PCIe 5.0 is years and years from getting into products and then yesterday Intel was demoing PCIe 5.0 FPGA silicon that will be on sale next year. And if you think that there won't be any other products that can talk to these FPGAs over PCIe 5.0 then maybe you are the one who should be summarily ignored instead.
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:30 am

A recent push by power chip vendors (Like Analog Devices) suggests that Data-centers would prefer one large 48V redundant, shared, and backed-up bus where all other local supplies derive their power. Seems kind of strange as the amount of current said bus bar would need to carry would be rather large, and then the bus bar would be enormous. "Safe" voltages though.

Something like:
Power Lines -> Large Isolation Transformer -> AC to DC 48V converter(s) -> Unit(Local 12V bus per unit -> Motherboard (5V, 3.3V, Core volts, etc.))

The key selling point is the entire server room would be isolated from the main lines, and green energy sources could pump energy into the 48V bus when available. You no longer need each machine to have it's own isolation and AC to DC converter and the risks that come with running AC through the entire server room. Overall system efficiency goes up as the largest efficiency loss is the multiple AC to DC converters.
 
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:33 am

chuckula wrote:
Waco, considering you like to go around making cryptic statements about how you supposedly know all this magical "secret" stuff about unpublished roadmaps that you can't tell us about and yet you immediately assume that nobody else know anything is just a little disingenuous.

I think you missed my point earlier when I stated that *if* this guy had access to NDA information, that article would have been pulled and he'd be in deep trouble over posting anything like that. You'll note that I am very careful to make my arguments based on public information, it's the only way I can keep track of what is NDA and what is not. If I can't source it with publicly available information, I won't post about it.


liquidsquid wrote:
A recent push by power chip vendors (Like Analog Devices) suggests that Data-centers would prefer one large 48V redundant, shared, and backed-up bus where all other local supplies derive their power. Seems kind of strange as the amount of current said bus bar would need to carry would be rather large, and then the bus bar would be enormous. "Safe" voltages though.

Cloud vendors for sure want this (Open HPC rack design). The bus bars do indeed carry a ton of current, and there's also the side-issue that you have to have a LOT of capacitance for each rack to help with spiky power loads (CPUs are great at this). In the end, we're moving away from DC rack distribution. It's more of a pain than it's worth.
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:37 am

chuckula wrote:
Waco, considering you like to go around making cryptic statements about how you supposedly know all this magical "secret" stuff about unpublished roadmaps that you can't tell us about and yet you immediately assume that nobody else know anything is just a little disingenuous.


Well, people who are buyers of this sort of stuff *DO* sign NDAs and get various information that the public doesn't.

That definitely does happen.

chuckula wrote:
So a guy who not only bought a over a hundred petaflops of compute power in a single purchase
but who has also been making large scale purchases of HPC equipment for years should be completely ignored since he can't possibly know anything?


I mean, he clearly doesn't?

Article wrote:
“We decided to run at more typical Australian voltage – 240 volts – and we do it with a single transform. None of the sparkies wanted to deal with it here,” said Schwan. “We had to work very closely with Skybox and with the utility to make this happen but we were able to make it happen.”


Such a statement cannot be reconciled with the notion that this guy knows just about anything. And given that he is supposedly a CTO, I'm kinda concerned about a lot of things now?
 
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:53 am

Glorious wrote:
Well, people who are buyers of this sort of stuff *DO* sign NDAs and get various information that the public doesn't.

It's why I'm cagey many times about specifics - it's sometimes very difficult to reconcile what's in my head and what's available to the public, so I end up sounding either crazy or Krogothy at times.

I don't think that guy signed any NDAs though. Companies like Intel tend to not sign them with too many random consumers, even if they buy a lot of leftover stock in a failed product. :P
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:04 pm

Waco wrote:
I don't think that guy signed any NDAs though.


I'm concerned for the publication, at this point, because they don't seem to have any credibility either.

The line that "In the United States, nearly all datacenters run at 110 volts, of course." comes from the writer.

Yikes!

That's not all, there a lot of other eyebrow-raising things asserted and the article-writer questions none of them.

He's another statement from the writer, not even as a quoted statement from the subject.

Article wrote:
With all of these combined efficiencies, DUG’s datacenter achieves a power usage effectiveness (PUE) under 1.05.


There isn't a single google facility that's under 1.08, and Google has been doing this for decades:

https://www.google.com/about/datacenter ... al/#tab0=0

AWS is more cagey, but they stick to the story of "under 1.2".

I don't think anyone has ever even seriously claimed less than 1.07

"under 1.05" is an utterly incredible claim.

Especially since "achieved" literally isn't even true: the thing isn't built yet!

Yikes! Yikes! Yikes!


-----


I'm not going to pretend that I know what either AMD or Intel is doing in this space, I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the subject.

However, I have actually talked to an electrician and I have actually plugged things into a wall (in which -every- outlet was labeled according to voltage) in a server room that didn't even have fifty computers in it.

And I'm alarmed. :wink:
 
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:35 pm

liquidsquid wrote:
Data-centers would prefer one large 48V redundant, shared, and backed-up bus where all other local supplies derive their power. Seems kind of strange as the amount of current said bus bar would need to carry would be rather large, and then the bus bar would be enormous. "Safe" voltages though.
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:16 pm

While the article isn't that well written by the author, I'm somewhat concerned by the sentiment here that it's some huge heresy to state that many data centers use 110V (actually 120V) power in the U.S.

I know what you're about to say: YOU CAN'T RUN A WHOLE DATA CENTER OFF A 120V PLUG YOU IDIOT!!

Yeah, of course not and the the article never said that data centers run on a single 120V circuit. Of course there's a big trunk coming in, potentially some transformers (at a safe distance), power conditioning equipment, and a whole bunch of wiring to get 120V circuits, but the majority of U.S. data centers out there plug servers into a 120V AC socket just like your PC does. Of course the really big servers might use 2 or more sockets and there are redundant power supplies, but it's still mostly an ordinary wall outlet delivering the power to an individual node. If you don't believe me, then please tell me why practically every rack server in existence comes with a supposedly useless and pointless "power supply" that takes a boring ordinary AC voltage from a wall outlet and turns it into various levels of DC to run your server. If data centers didn't use it, why put it in?

For those of your saying "BUT 48V DC EXISTS!" Yes it does. So do blades. That doesn't mean saying "most data centers use 1/2/4/etc/U form factors in their racks" is incorrect either simply because an alternative exists. Frankly, when you go beyond just the computer hardware when considering a data center, it's also pretty wrong to say that your specially configured system runs on "DC" because I can guarantee that the compressors pumps in whatever AC or even liquid chilling system you use ain't running on 48V DC power (or even single-phase AC in many instances).

What the article is saying is that the guy setting up the system -- who is from Australia, and that's important -- specced his data center to supply 240V circuits instead of 120V circuits. These are NOT the split-phase 240V circuits used in the US for things like your dryer. They are ordinary single-phase circuits. That is unusual in the US but not unusual in Australia or in many other parts of the world outside of the US. In some cases since there is less current required on the line to deliver the same amount of power, this can lead to a small increase in efficiency. The PSUs in a standard computer system can handle either 120V or 240V, although some do require a manual switch to be thrown while others auto-sense. So I can certainly see why this guy with his background sets that up in his datacenter, and I can see why a standard electrician in the US who sets up 120V circuits for a living would look at it as being funny since it's not the US standard (but still a standard in large parts of the world).

As for the PUE, I don't necessarily trust the number since lots of fudging can go into how that factor is calculated.
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:31 pm

chuckula wrote:
Yeah, of course not and the the article never said that data centers run on a single 120V circuit. Of course there's a big trunk coming in, potentially some transformers (at a safe distance), power conditioning equipment, and a whole bunch of wiring to get 120V circuits, but the majority of U.S. data centers out there plug servers into a 120V AC socket just like your PC does. Of course the really big servers might use 2 or more sockets and there are redundant power supplies, but it's still mostly an ordinary wall outlet delivering the power to an individual node. If you don't believe me, then please tell me why practically every rack server in existence comes with a supposedly useless and pointless "power supply" that takes a boring ordinary AC voltage from a wall outlet and turns it into various levels of DC to run your server. If data centers didn't use it, why put it in?

I don't know what datacenters you've been in, but every single one I've been in (that doesn't have DC power) is generally powered by 208V single phase. I would be shocked if the percentage of datacenters using 120V as primary power even hits double digits. It's a rarity far more than a commonality from everyone I've ever spoken to.
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:14 pm

Waco wrote:
I don't know what datacenters you've been in, but every single one I've been in (that doesn't have DC power) is generally powered by 208V single phase. I would be shocked if the percentage of datacenters using 120V as primary power even hits double digits. It's a rarity far more than a commonality from everyone I've ever spoken to.


Uh yeah, those datacenters are running 120V to the servers and frankly you just proved my point about how of course they split smaller 120V circuits out of a higher voltage (where 208V is already stepped-down of course).

208V is 120V... just measured between two hot wires out of phase by 120 degrees instead of the 120V that is measured between one hot wire and neutral. They can say that the line is 208V with two hot conductors, but each breakout from the line that goes to an individual plug is only 120V just like what you expect because each breakout only uses one of the legs relative to neutral instead of the other leg.

Here's a Wye diagram: Image

How does 120V + 120V come out to 208V you ask? Trigonometry since we are adding the vertical leg of that diagram: sin (120deg) * 120V ~= 104V, and two of them added together for each phase is 104V + 104V = 208V.

While I'm not a fully certified power engineer, the first of degrees from an Elite 8 school was in Electrical Engineering and I had to learn the basics of AC power before I was doing pipelined CPU designs in VHDL.





Your hardware does not run directly on 208V btw, and 240V hardware, including PSUs, generally does not accept 208V either.
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:33 pm

chuckula wrote:
Waco wrote:
chuckula wrote:
A very big launch even if the HBM equipped Icelake Xeons will make more headlines when they launch next year.

Got a roadmap for that?


This guy who bought 125 Petaflops [that's double precision petaflops, or as I call them: The awesome kind] worth of Knights Landing hardware does: https://www.hpcwire.com/2019/03/13/oil- ... 00-wafers/

That completely jibes with all the other rumors I've heard too, although I'll note that in those rumors nobody says that a single die solution will have 60 cores, although a 2-die connected solution can hit 60 - 70 cores easily.

And it makes sense. The only problem with a 56 core Cascade Lake is that 12 channels of RAM is frankly not enough in many situations. Augment that with HBM and an 8-channel DDR 5 platform becomes workable.
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:43 pm

chuckula wrote:
Your hardware does not run directly on 208V btw, and 240V hardware, including PSUs, generally does not accept 208V either.

Dude, you really shouldn't speak out of ignorance like this. Googling random crap is not going to negate the fact that you don't do this daily.

I buy a lot of datacenter equipment. I work with the facilities guys on speccing out the correct PDUs and breakers upstream to handle the equipment load (varies from 5 KW to 120 KW per rack). It all runs on 208V, directly (or 480v for big stuff, or 48v DC for weird OCP stuff). You can even run one PSU on 120v with the other running off of 208v if you wish, it's completely supported by essentially every server available today with N+1 capacity.

Please give up while you're only slightly tarnishing your reputation.
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:07 pm

Waco wrote:
chuckula wrote:
Your hardware does not run directly on 208V btw, and 240V hardware, including PSUs, generally does not accept 208V either.

Dude, you really shouldn't speak out of ignorance like this. Googling random crap is not going to negate the fact that you don't do this daily.

I buy a lot of datacenter equipment. I work with the facilities guys on speccing out the correct PDUs and breakers upstream to handle the equipment load (varies from 5 KW to 120 KW per rack). It all runs on 208V, directly (or 480v for big stuff, or 48v DC for weird OCP stuff). You can even run one PSU on 120v with the other running off of 208v if you wish, it's completely supported by essentially every server available today with N+1 capacity.

Please give up while you're only slightly tarnishing your reputation.


Instead of hurling insults maybe you should read what I actually posted, which was in the context of what 208V actually means.
The context of this article was about what most systems are using. It's great that your hardware is setup for 208V directly.. never said that couldn't be done. However, 240V is not simply 208V "plus a little bit". A 240V single-phase circuit is setup with one hot leg and a neutral just like standard 120V but with the voltage being doubled per a different standard. You were confusing the issue with 208V because... as I said and proved with math instead of hurling insults... 208V is effectively the 120V standard just using 2 hot wires instead of a single one. Of course you can make 480V if you start with 277V phases and obviously the standards are not inherent laws of physics and for that matter you can go with a delta configuration instead of wye if you feel like it too.



As for tarnishing things, I've
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:09 pm

chuckula wrote:
Waco wrote:
chuckula wrote:
Your hardware does not run directly on 208V btw, and 240V hardware, including PSUs, generally does not accept 208V either.

Dude, you really shouldn't speak out of ignorance like this. Googling random crap is not going to negate the fact that you don't do this daily.

I buy a lot of datacenter equipment. I work with the facilities guys on speccing out the correct PDUs and breakers upstream to handle the equipment load (varies from 5 KW to 120 KW per rack). It all runs on 208V, directly (or 480v for big stuff, or 48v DC for weird OCP stuff). You can even run one PSU on 120v with the other running off of 208v if you wish, it's completely supported by essentially every server available today with N+1 capacity.

Please give up while you're only slightly tarnishing your reputation.


Instead of hurling insults maybe you should read what I actually posted, which was in the context of what 208V actually means. Incidentally, conflating kilowatt ratings with voltages doesn't exactly make me want to fall down and worship your superior intellect either.

The context of this article was about what most systems are using. It's great that your hardware is setup for 208V directly.. never said that couldn't be done. However, 240V is not simply 208V "plus a little bit". A 240V single-phase circuit is setup with one hot leg and a neutral just like standard 120V but with the voltage being doubled per a different standard. You were confusing the issue with 208V because... as I said and proved with math instead of hurling insults... 208V is effectively the 120V standard just using 2 hot wires instead of a single one. Of course you can make 480V if you start with 277V phases and obviously the standards are not inherent laws of physics and for that matter you can go with a delta configuration instead of wye if you feel like it too.



As for tarnishing things, if you don't like a rumor then stop playing the game of "OH I KNOW EVERYTHING BECAUSE I'M UNDER SOME MAGIC NDA" business. Your magic NDA obviously didn't extend to Intel's FPGA announcement since you were clearly blindsided by PCIe 5.0 or else you're just trolling by lying in your posts and hiding behind "I have an NDA so I must be right but I also don't have to support anything I say because of the NDA!"
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:16 pm

Yeah, this is NOT what I had in mind for this thread when I created it.

Shut this crap down if you feel like it, mods.
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:21 pm

chuckula wrote:
Instead of hurling insults maybe you should read what I actually posted, which was in the context of what 208V actually means.

The sound of goalposts flying by is fun. 208V direct feed into racks is not even remotely rare. Playing pedantic that it's just "two feeds of 120v" to backup the claim of 120v is cute.


Dancin - sorry for the hijack. Back to Intel announcement day banter!
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:43 pm

I don't run anything here, but between the Glorious/Goty and chucky/waco squabbles it really got out of hand IMO.

o.O hurry up Sunny Cove.
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:32 pm

Maybe we need an Internet Fight Club thread or subforum for resolving that sort of thing. I've avoided R&P because y'all can't handle my truth but I'd be down for some maximum trolling.
 
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Wed Apr 03, 2019 10:06 pm

NovusBogus wrote:
Maybe we need an Internet Fight Club thread or subforum for resolving that sort of thing. I've avoided R&P because y'all can't handle my truth but I'd be down for some maximum trolling.

All obnoxious arguments booted to a subforum is a good idea. It'll keep me from being a pain in the ass when I have a crappy work week and take it out on ignorance. :P
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:00 am

Good Lord. I came here to read about big, important developments in Intel's roadmap, and instead get grown people screaming "no, YOU'RE ignorant" in a round robin. Please make a subforum for internet slap fights if the people here can't be civil. This is not the kind of discussion that's going to make anybody want to stick around.
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:34 pm

NovusBogus wrote:
Maybe we need an Internet Fight Club thread or subforum for resolving that sort of thing. I've avoided R&P because y'all can't handle my truth but I'd be down for some maximum trolling.


May I suggest a $4.99 voltmeter instead.
 
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:32 pm

Concupiscence wrote:
Good Lord. I came here to read about big, important developments in Intel's roadmap, and instead get grown people screaming "no, YOU'RE ignorant" in a round robin. Please make a subforum for internet slap fights if the people here can't be civil. This is not the kind of discussion that's going to make anybody want to stick around.


If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:52 pm

chuckula wrote:
Concupiscence wrote:
Good Lord. I came here to read about big, important developments in Intel's roadmap, and instead get grown people screaming "no, YOU'RE ignorant" in a round robin. Please make a subforum for internet slap fights if the people here can't be civil. This is not the kind of discussion that's going to make anybody want to stick around.


If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

Some here seem to be doing it during the spare time though.
 
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Re: Big release day for Intel

Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:41 pm

Well a lot of us are engineers, just sayin'
 
chuckula
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Minister of Gerbil Affairs
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Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:18 pm
Location: Probably where I don't belong.

Re: Big release day for Intel

Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:56 pm

Hey Waco, you know that HBM2-equipped Ice Lake Xeon that can't possibly exist because you don't want it to?

Yeah, here's a picture of it from an official Intel Event:

Image

Except that it's a multi-die configuration so EACH DIE gets 4-channels of HBM2 there.

So much for your silly little NDAs. Don't apologize to me for being arrogant and wrong, I can take it. Apologize to the people on here whom you intentionally misled because you either 1. Knew damn well these parts were coming under your precious "NDA" and lied about it; or 2. Didn't know jack and intentionally misled people around here with your promises of "secret knowledge" under your little NDA.
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--Many thanks to the TR Forum for advice in getting it built.
 
Waco
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Posts: 3045
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Los Alamos, NM

Re: Big release day for Intel

Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:25 pm

chuckula wrote:
Hey Waco, you know that HBM2-equipped Ice Lake Xeon that can't possibly exist because you don't want it to?

I think you're funneling your own feelings here somehow. I want HBM on everything.
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