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biffzinker
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Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:16 pm

RESEARCHERS AT the University of California at Irvine (UCI) have accidentally - yes, accidentally - discovered a nano-wire-based technology that could lead to batteries that can be charged hundreds of thousands of times.

Mya Le Thai, a PhD candidate at the university, explained in a paper published this week that she and her colleagues used nano-wires, a material that is several thousand times thinner than a human hair, extremely conductive and has a surface area large enough to support the storage and transfer of electrons.

Nano-wires are extremely fragile and don't usually hold up well to repeated discharging and recharging, or cycling. They expand and grow brittle in a typical lithium-ion battery, but Le Thai’s team fixed this by coating a gold nano-wire in a manganese dioxide shell and then placing it in a Plexiglas-like gel to improve its reliability. All by accident.

The breakthrough could lead to laptop, smartphone and tablet batteries that last forever.

Reginald Penner, chairman of UCI's chemistry department, said: "Mya was playing around and she coated this whole thing with a very thin gel layer and started to cycle it.

"She discovered that just by using this gel she could cycle it hundreds of thousands of times without losing any capacity. That was crazy, because these things typically die in dramatic fashion after 5,000 or 6,000 or 7,000 cycles at most."

The battery-like structure was tested more than 200,000 times over a three-month span, and the researchers reported no loss of capacity or power.

"The coated electrode holds its shape much better, making it a more reliable option," Thai said. "This research proves that a nano wire-based battery electrode can have a long lifetime and that we can make these kinds of batteries a reality."

The breakthrough also paves the way for commercial batteries that could last a lifetime in appliances, cars and spacecraft.

British fuel-cell maker Intelligent Energy Holdings announced earlier this year that it is working on a smartphone battery that will need to be charged only once a week.


Source: The Inquirer
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:26 pm

all I see is "could .. could .. could"

it seems like every day we hear something new and exciting that may change battery technology forever, but so far all we're seeing are slow incremental improvements with all the excitement of past discoveries with potential long forgotten
 
Redocbew
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:35 pm

Technically possible and commercially viable are often two different things.

LCD monitors were once technically possible but nose-bleed expensive to produce. It just took a couple decades to make that part work. :P
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biffzinker
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:53 pm

Maybe this has a higher probability of showing up though? :P

Probability is the measure of the likelihood that an event will occur. Probability is quantified as a number between 0 and 1.
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:57 pm

Every new tech claims they are close to "commercially viable" anyway. I will believe it when I can buy it from an e-tailer and use it.
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:20 pm

biffzinker wrote:
Maybe this has a higher probability of showing up though? :P

I see no reason to believe it is any more probable than any other "miracle" battery tech that has been announced over the past decade.

They also quite pointedly don't indicate how they think the energy density of these things will compare to traditional lithium-ion batteries. If you can recharge it a million times, but you only get 30 minutes of run time per charge, that's not particularly practical for a phone.
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localhostrulez
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:47 pm

Here's the thing with capacity degradation - if you actually bothered, couldn't you limit the voltage range a bit (ex. charge to 4.1V rather than 4.2V; discharge to 3.3V instead of 3.0V) and drastically increase lifespan, since that's where most of the wear is? It's literally a case of take existing batteries, change a few parameters, and bam - the battery lasts several times as long (but runs for 80% of the time). I think battery university has some good articles on this. Read: All these older, high mileage (200-300K) Priuses still on the road with their original ni-MH batteries, and no issues or significant wear whatsoever (Toyota engineered those well, and purposely limits the SoC range for this very reason).
 
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:27 pm

localhostrulez wrote:
Here's the thing with capacity degradation - if you actually bothered, couldn't you limit the voltage range a bit (ex. charge to 4.1V rather than 4.2V; discharge to 3.3V instead of 3.0V) and drastically increase lifespan, since that's where most of the wear is? It's literally a case of take existing batteries, change a few parameters, and bam - the battery lasts several times as long (but runs for 80% of the time). I think battery university has some good articles on this. Read: All these older, high mileage (200-300K) Priuses still on the road with their original ni-MH batteries, and no issues or significant wear whatsoever (Toyota engineered those well, and purposely limits the SoC range for this very reason).

That's a bit of an apples-oranges comparison. NiMH is a very different battery tech from lithium-ion. NiMH has much lower energy density, but is significantly more rugged, and doesn't have a tendency to catch fire and explode if mistreated.
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:16 pm

localhostrulez wrote:
Here's the thing with capacity degradation - if you actually bothered, couldn't you limit the voltage range a bit (ex. charge to 4.1V rather than 4.2V; discharge to 3.3V instead of 3.0V) and drastically increase lifespan, since that's where most of the wear is? It's literally a case of take existing batteries, change a few parameters, and bam - the battery lasts several times as long (but runs for 80% of the time). I think battery university has some good articles on this. Read: All these older, high mileage (200-300K) Priuses still on the road with their original ni-MH batteries, and no issues or significant wear whatsoever (Toyota engineered those well, and purposely limits the SoC range for this very reason).


The voltage measured at the terminal of a battery depends on the load. You can think of a battery as an ideal voltage source in series with a resistor. But as far as how much of a capacity to use and how deep to charge these are already parameters engineers understand and control. It then becomes a case of marketing where they decide to trade off battery lifespan (number of charges), battery usage length, recharge time, expected lifespan of device, enforced obsolescence etc
 
localhostrulez
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:47 am

just brew it! wrote:
That's a bit of an apples-oranges comparison. NiMH is a very different battery tech from lithium-ion. NiMH has much lower energy density, but is significantly more rugged, and doesn't have a tendency to catch fire and explode if mistreated.

True, BUT - the max charging voltage vs wear thing is still true for li-ion: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... _batteries

Pancake wrote:
But as far as how much of a capacity to use and how deep to charge these are already parameters engineers understand and control. It then becomes a case of marketing where they decide to trade off battery lifespan (number of charges), battery usage length, recharge time, expected lifespan of device, enforced obsolescence etc

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about - if they'd stop charging the batteries quite as hard, they'd last a whole lot longer. (And the voltage is still used as a guide for where 0% and 100% is; 0V and 4.2V; it slows down as it nears full.)

Kinda reminds me of people who regularly run their gas tanks low... you basically save a little money one-time, in exchange for worrying about running out of gas, and risking burning out the pump that much faster. Like not lowering battery thresholds just a little, it seems like a dumb idea for little gain.
 
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:15 am

Redocbew wrote:
LCD monitors were once technically possible but nose-bleed expensive to produce. It just took a couple decades to make that part work. :P
If you call what we have "work". :)
 
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:18 am

meerkt wrote:
Redocbew wrote:
LCD monitors were once technically possible but nose-bleed expensive to produce. It just took a couple decades to make that part work. :P

If you call what we have "work". :)

Well, they "work" well enough that they have all but completely replaced CRTs.
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:18 am

Flying Fox wrote:
I will believe it when I can buy it from an e-tailer and use it.

Have you looked into a career as a Grant Administrator? I think with this attitude, you'd be able to reject proposals with superhuman efficiency.

I love reading about discoveries like this. It's something we didn't know previously, that now we do know. We can go replicate the results she got with the gel if we like, and carry the torch further. It's always interesting to read about a novel lab technique.

I agree that the tone of these Inquirer articles tends to be a bit goofy. That's why I particularly like when TR covers the science/engineering angle of the technology world. I find it classy, it nicely cuts the acridity and ultimate pointlessness of consumer product branding/marketing, and balances the feel of the site. I remember when Colton did shortbread there was a "Science, Technology, Hacks, Makers and Gadgets" section, which was cool.
 
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:33 pm

localhostrulez wrote:
Pancake wrote:
But as far as how much of a capacity to use and how deep to charge these are already parameters engineers understand and control. It then becomes a case of marketing where they decide to trade off battery lifespan (number of charges), battery usage length, recharge time, expected lifespan of device, enforced obsolescence etc

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about - if they'd stop charging the batteries quite as hard, they'd last a whole lot longer. (And the voltage is still used as a guide for where 0% and 100% is; 0V and 4.2V; it slows down as it nears full.)

They already do. I have a Kia Soul EV which is rated as a 27kWh battery but when various testers have measured it they have determined it is somewhere around 31kWh. On top of that when I charge it I can choose to charge to either 80% or 100% of the 27kWh. This should all help it last the 8-10 years that I plan on keeping the car.
 
localhostrulez
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:40 am

Ooh, good to know. Come to think of it, I thought there were a few other EVs that have an 80% option as well.

I still don't see much of that with consumer electronics though...
 
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:33 am

Mya Le Thai (possibly) wrote:
So, I accidentally coated a gold nano-wire in a manganese dioxide shell because that's the sort of thing I do all the time without paying attention.

Anyway, funny story - These manganese dioxide-coated gold nano-wires just accidentally "fell" into a jar of a Plexiglas-like gel because I always leave my microscope samples lying precariously-balanced on the edge of the table and store open vats of other substances all over the lab next to tables.


Sounds about as believable as the "This isn't what it looks like; I just tripped and stuck in your wife" excuse.
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:22 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
Mya Le Thai (possibly) wrote:
So, I accidentally coated a gold nano-wire in a manganese dioxide shell because that's the sort of thing I do all the time without paying attention.

Anyway, funny story - These manganese dioxide-coated gold nano-wires just accidentally "fell" into a jar of a Plexiglas-like gel because I always leave my microscope samples lying precariously-balanced on the edge of the table and store open vats of other substances all over the lab next to tables.


Sounds about as believable as the "This isn't what it looks like; I just tripped and stuck in your wife" excuse.

:lol: My thoughts exactly. Some quality journalism there --- Open the article with over-the-top heavy emphasis on "accidentally" (about a ridiculously specific set of materials and circumstances), and then never bother to explain why/how it was accidental.

I'm thinking maybe this is a very coy attempt at "The Onion" type humor, and none of this actually happened.
 
Captain Ned
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:28 am

Bloody 'ell. Does no one here honor the Laws of Thermodynamics?

There will never be any such thing as a completely reversible process that has no loss.

And yes, my car gets 40 rods to the hogshead and that's the way I like it. 8)
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:54 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
Mya Le Thai (possibly) wrote:
So, I accidentally coated a gold nano-wire in a manganese dioxide shell because that's the sort of thing I do all the time without paying attention.

Anyway, funny story - These manganese dioxide-coated gold nano-wires just accidentally "fell" into a jar of a Plexiglas-like gel because I always leave my microscope samples lying precariously-balanced on the edge of the table and store open vats of other substances all over the lab next to tables.

Sounds about as believable as the "This isn't what it looks like; I just tripped and stuck in your wife" excuse.

It's entirely possible they were trying to make something else, and the material described in the article was a side effect or the result of a mistake.

The guy who invented aspartame was actually trying to invent an anti-ulcer medication, FWIW.

Captain Ned wrote:
Bloody 'ell. Does no one here honor the Laws of Thermodynamics?

There will never be any such thing as a completely reversible process that has no loss.

The article didn't say anything about there not being any *energy* loss in the process. It just claims there's negligible degradation of the electrode material.
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:04 pm

just brew it! wrote:
The article didn't say anything about there not being any *energy* loss in the process. It just claims there's negligible degradation of the electrode material.

Entropy always wins.
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:07 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
The article didn't say anything about there not being any *energy* loss in the process. It just claims there's negligible degradation of the electrode material.

Entropy always wins.

Of course. But the point is you can make the degradation of the electrodes negligible from a practical standpoint, without violating the laws of thermodynamics. If the battery degrades slowly enough that it lasts longer than the expected useful life of the device it is powering, then the issue ceases to matter.
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Captain Ned
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:10 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Of course. But the point is you can make the degradation of the electrodes negligible from a practical standpoint, without violating the laws of thermodynamics. If the battery degrades slowly enough that it lasts longer than the expected useful life of the device it is powering, then the issue ceases to matter.

I'm in full agreement; I'm just the one throwing the physical laws in front of those who would proclaim miracles.

Shades of Asimov's "The Last Question" in thermodynamics-speak.

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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:50 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
Bloody 'ell. Does no one here honor the Laws of Thermodynamics?

There will never be any such thing as a completely reversible process that has no loss.

And yes, my car gets 40 rods to the hogshead and that's the way I like it. 8)
Wait, you're going to quote Grandpa Simpson's "40s to the hogshead" quip and then not accurately quote Homer on the Laws of Thermodynamics?
 
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:17 pm

Flying Fox wrote:
Every new tech claims they are close to "commercially viable" anyway. I will believe it when I can buy it from an e-tailer and use it.

"EUV will be viable in 2-3 years" 2005-present.

This sounds cool as a possible future technology.
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:29 pm

IMO the really big one is practical nuclear fusion power generation.

AI finally seems to be getting there, at least for specific niche applications.

Both have been hyped as "the next big thing" for as long as I've been interested in science and technology... IOW at least since the 1970s. There are a lot of people who have spent their entire careers pursuing them, without seeing them go mainstream.
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Captain Ned
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:47 pm

]just brew it! wrote:
IMO the really big one is practical nuclear fusion power generation.

When I walked into University in September 1981, this was generally assumed to be imminent. I've now come to understand that the optimism I once expressed in a Fall 1981 paper (after a visit to the University of Rochester laser lab) may have have been exuberant (as my professor duly noted).
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just brew it!
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:51 pm

I want my flying car! :D
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Captain Ned
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:52 pm

just brew it! wrote:
I want my flying car! :D

Would you rather deal with the local constabulary or the FAA?
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:43 pm

localhostrulez wrote:
Ooh, good to know. Come to think of it, I thought there were a few other EVs that have an 80% option as well.

I still don't see much of that with consumer electronics though...

"Everyone who wants to lose 40% of their cell phone's battery capacity in order to extend its lifespan, show of hands?"
*crickets.wav*
*hand slowly goes up in the back*
"You there, sir -- root and Cyanogenmod, then hack the settings. Everyone else, back to your regularly scheduled Candy Crush."

IOW, the reason Toyota can shave so much capacity off the Prius pack is the tank full of dead dinosaur food to provide additional mobility. There's no massive range penalty for running a battery-saver charge cycle.
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localhostrulez
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Re: Breakthrough battery immune to capacity degradation

Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:43 pm

Yes, but see the battery university link I posted a while back - I'd be happy to sacrifice ~15% (4.1V instead of 4.2V) to double the lifespan of the battery, especially on something like a laptop that I'll probably use for 5+ years easily. I don't routinely run my battery down to 0% (nor do I routinely, or ever, run my gas tank down that far), but I still have that option if I really need it.

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