TR Forums

I legitimately do not understand how people can type in the "standard" fashion. Might just be my Dyspraxia talking there, so to speak, but...

I just don't get you folks. I'm not complaining. I'm mystified.

I.S.T. wrote:

I legitimately do not understand how people can type in the "standard" fashion.

Look at the above-desk height of the keyboard on an IBM Selectric compared to a Model M. The Selectric's keyboard is a couple of inches higher relative to the desk, thus requiring the "standard" hovering-wrist position.

Captain Ned wrote:

I.S.T. wrote:

I legitimately do not understand how people can type in the "standard" fashion.

Look at the above-desk height of the keyboard on an IBM Selectric compared to a Model M. The Selectric's keyboard is a couple of inches higher relative to the desk, thus requiring the "standard" hovering-wrist position.

Yeah from looking at the pictures of actual typewriters I can see what you mean Ned. Depending on the model, it was almost impossible to rest your wrist on your desk while typing. With some of them, you couldn't even do that.

whm1974 wrote:

Captain Ned wrote:

I.S.T. wrote:

I legitimately do not understand how people can type in the "standard" fashion.

Look at the above-desk height of the keyboard on an IBM Selectric compared to a Model M. The Selectric's keyboard is a couple of inches higher relative to the desk, thus requiring the "standard" hovering-wrist position.

Yeah from looking at the pictures of actual typewriters I can see what you mean Ned. Depending on the model, it was almost impossible to rest your wrist on your desk while typing. With some of them, you couldn't even do that.

I'd take that a step further. With most models, it was completely impossible. Too much stuff underneath the keys to make it the thickness of a PC keyboard, even after the switch to electric models.

Also, I'm not sure if I.S.T. was complaining about hand/arm position in general, or "correct" mapping of which fingers are supposed to press which keys. The latter seems alien to me as well, since I was completely self-taught and already set in my ways before anyone tried to teach me the "right" way to type.

whm1974 wrote:

Posting this may seem silly to some of the younger forum users, but hey carpel tunnel and other RSI injuries are nothing to play around with. If writing this will help prevent long term hand and wrist problems for our users, then this is worth writing and reading.

I was diagnosed with RSI 20 years ago, mostly from bad habits picked up from gaming. I have been dealing with it and have improved immeasurably over the years to the point I only get flare ups every couple of months that last a day or so. I am a software developer and type for a living.

I am a full touch typist and almost never look at the keys.
A good ergonomic keyboard helps a lot. Does not need to be too crazy. My current work keyboard is the Logitech Wave.
Keyboard should not take too much effort to push the keys.
Take a short break every hour, only needs to be a few minutes, stand up... don't use just web browse.

Don't ignore your choice of mouse! It can contribute to injury as much as the keyboard.

Also for workstation ergonomics I have found out during workplace evaluations that your monitor needs to be higher than you'd think.

Arvald wrote:

Also for workstation ergonomics I have found out during workplace evaluations that your monitor needs to be higher than you'd think.

So what's the recommendation? Where should the center of the screen be relative to your eyeballs?

FWIW I find that the stand for my current monitor is too low. I have it set on top of some stuff to raise it about 3 inches. Center of screen is still below eye level.

whm1974 wrote:

I'm putting this here because this deals with on how to use a piece of hardware correctly.

I had learn to type back in High School during the early 90's using actual typewriters and computer keyboards. But over the years like many other people my typing skills had decayed over time. Well a month or two ago the back of the palm of my left hand started hurting after long sessions of being on forums. After reading that you are supposed to use the keyboard laying flat with the feet down, I gave that a try and the pain went away.

So after reading about the AZIO Retro and doing more research on mechanical keyboards, I'm learning some more stuff on the correct use of computer keyboards to prevent RSI injuries, such as having your hands floating in the air instead of your wrist resting on the desk as you type. While I do find this to be tiring, at least there is no longer any pain.

So some some things I have (re)learned:

Type with hands floating over the keys and not with wrist resting on keyboard or desk.
Sit with good posture and with feet flat on the floor(this is the hardest to do).
Take a break every so often.
Having your keyboard laying flat does help, but YMMV.

Posting this may seem silly to some of the younger forum users, but hey carpel tunnel and other RSI injuries are nothing to play around with. If writing this will help prevent long term hand and wrist problems for our users, then this is worth writing and reading.

Any more tips from the Touch typists here?

My favorite setup has me sitting a little high and come to think of it even when level with the keyboard, I always keep my hands floating. I rest my elbows on the edge of the table and the keyboard is shoved back far enough that my fingers are just perfectly centered on the ASDF JKL:, so its an easy stretch to reach the rest of the keys, and like you say, my hands are floating. I was an indifferent touch typeist despite taking it in high school circa 1973. It took coding FORTRAN and typing term papers and thesis's to make me proficient.

just brew it! wrote:

Arvald wrote:

Also for workstation ergonomics I have found out during workplace evaluations that your monitor needs to be higher than you'd think.

So what's the recommendation? Where should the center of the screen be relative to your eyeballs?

FWIW I find that the stand for my current monitor is too low. I have it set on top of some stuff to raise it about 3 inches. Center of screen is still below eye level.

I have lined (better than progressive for reading fast) bifocals and I like to sit with the center of the screen right on the bifocal line. That lets me glance up and down as needed to bring whatever into focus.

If I knew what a huge difference a good decent keyboard made when I was younger, I would have went out of my way to make sure I always had one. They are worth the extra expense.

just brew it! wrote:

whm1974 wrote:

Captain Ned wrote:

Look at the above-desk height of the keyboard on an IBM Selectric compared to a Model M. The Selectric's keyboard is a couple of inches higher relative to the desk, thus requiring the "standard" hovering-wrist position.

Yeah from looking at the pictures of actual typewriters I can see what you mean Ned. Depending on the model, it was almost impossible to rest your wrist on your desk while typing. With some of them, you couldn't even do that.

I'd take that a step further. With most models, it was completely impossible. Too much stuff underneath the keys to make it the thickness of a PC keyboard, even after the switch to electric models.

Also, I'm not sure if I.S.T. was complaining about hand/arm position in general, or "correct" mapping of which fingers are supposed to press which keys. The latter seems alien to me as well, since I was completely self-taught and already set in my ways before anyone tried to teach me the "right" way to type.

More that I could not ever keep my hands that way or use all my fingers when typing because of the disability I have, and that causes me to just be utterly confused as to how people do.

I just don't get y'all.

whm1974 wrote:

If I knew what a huge difference a good decent keyboard made when I was younger, I would have went out of my way to make sure I always had one. They are worth the extra expense.

My favorite keyboards are those old early to mid 2000s ones bundled with OEM systems. Not too light of a key press, not too strong. They tend to be juuuuuust right. </Goldilocks>

just brew it! wrote:

Arvald wrote:

Also for workstation ergonomics I have found out during workplace evaluations that your monitor needs to be higher than you'd think.

So what's the recommendation? Where should the center of the screen be relative to your eyeballs?

FWIW I find that the stand for my current monitor is too low. I have it set on top of some stuff to raise it about 3 inches. Center of screen is still below eye level.

eyes should be 2/3-3/4 up the screen at neutral sitting position.
At least that is what I remember.
My work monitor is a 24" sitting on a 6" stand on top of my work area.

Arvald wrote:

just brew it! wrote:

Arvald wrote:

Also for workstation ergonomics I have found out during workplace evaluations that your monitor needs to be higher than you'd think.

So what's the recommendation? Where should the center of the screen be relative to your eyeballs?

FWIW I find that the stand for my current monitor is too low. I have it set on top of some stuff to raise it about 3 inches. Center of screen is still below eye level.

eyes should be 2/3-3/4 up the screen at neutral sitting position.
At least that is what I remember.
My work monitor is a 24" sitting on a 6" stand on top of my work area.

That seems to be about where I've got my monitors (both home and work).

just brew it! wrote:

Arvald wrote:

just brew it! wrote:

So what's the recommendation? Where should the center of the screen be relative to your eyeballs?

FWIW I find that the stand for my current monitor is too low. I have it set on top of some stuff to raise it about 3 inches. Center of screen is still below eye level.

eyes should be 2/3-3/4 up the screen at neutral sitting position.
At least that is what I remember.
My work monitor is a 24" sitting on a 6" stand on top of my work area.

That seems to be about where I've got my monitors (both home and work).

I'm being pestered at work to have another evaluation of my workstation done. If any updates on the modern workstation I'll update this.

Captain Ned wrote:

whm1974 wrote:

The keyboards most of the old PCs were quite noisy.

And it is still a glorious noise. Also keeps unwanted people out of my home office.

Yep, I enjoy the tactile click response too. I have a Logitech Cherry MX Blue keyboard now and just bought my kids mechanical ones for their PCs for Christmas. I'm only a hunt-and-pecking typer however and never developed the good habits. On a visit to my parents a few years back my daughters found my old non-word processing electric typewriter I used my first few years in community college. When I transferred to a university the DOS to Windows transition was underway and the computer labs were getting better. In grade school I messed around with the TRS-80s and Apple IIe's. Ironically my girls thought that typewriter was the coolest new tech they ever saw and loved inserting paper, typing and seeing instant print My grandmother had one with the old circular keys and the long lever-action hammers. Fun to play with and it looked like some kind of steam-punk machine.

Speaking of preventing RSI, what about using a trackpad instead of using mice? And are they good for gaming?

Trackpads aren't good for *anything*.

just brew it! wrote:

Trackpads aren't good for *anything*.

Sorry I meant trackballs. Are those any good?

Yes, trackballs are superb. I use a Logitech Trackman Marble; have been using them for over 20 years. Keeps the pointing hand from hurting. But even "safe" movements made repetitively can hurt you over time, so I also alternate my Trackman with an actual mouse.

Wow, lots of things here. My post is all over the map, but I think the lifecycle of typewriters is pretty much at the center of our story of technological advancement in computers and in the way we relate to each other in education and business.

When I was in college, most printers were of the dot-matrix type, whereupon close inspection you could see the dots in the printed output. These were not suitable for resumes, for sure. But the most annoying thing was that my college teachers/professors would not accept papers printed with them either. So it penalized those students who spent money on technology, or who were lucky enough to have a roommate who did.

The problem was not restricted to typewriters. Some math classes were requiring that we take tests without calculators, or required that we don't use a "programmable" calculator (as if that was a special evil thing), while other classes forced you to even leave your books and notes at home for a test.

I was disappointed that my place of higher learning had such an archaic approach to knowledge retention by not being accepting of new technology, and even today it hasn't changed much when you consider how certification exams must be taken.

That stone aged thinking isn't supported by real-life in business, either. In my 30-something career, I have never ONCE been asked to complete a project and oh by the way, you can't use the company's repository of policies and procedures, your own notes, Microsoft Office tools, or even the web browser or calculator apps in your smartphone. Never, not once.

But I digress. Back to the typewriter topic: For some years after college (mid-to-late 80s), my job searches had me using my mom's Smith Corona to type my resumes and cover letters, then having to take my typed material up to the copy center (this was before Kinko's) to have them typeset and printed onto quality paper for actual mailing. In the early 1990s, I had a Gateway 2000 Windows 3.0 computer (loved their magazine ads!) but didn't have a good enough printer, so I had to drive through the snow to a Kinkos and and use Word Perfect on one of their DOS PCs (white characters on a blue background; not unlike typing a post on Tech Report!) then print it myself and physically turn it over to their store staff to make copies on one of their big Xeroxes (or whatever they were using then).

But today, most job searches don't even involve any actual printing and mailing. The submission process is purely electronic/web-based, and companies expect that, which is a huge improvement. Combined with more and more options for working and learning remotely, we have finally started to get to a better place...but I'm still not fond of our current testing methologies.