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Welch
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Dell Hates AMD?

Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:36 pm

OK, click-bait title I get it... but wtf? They rarely do much with AMD products in the first place, no Ryzen systems (yet?). However, I saw this an instantly noticed that one of these is not like the other.

http://imgur.com/PHrvGM6

It seems like at every available moment, AMDs APUs are being paired with crap parts intentionally. Conspiracy theory here: Intel is still pulling strings with OEMs. There is no reason to pair a 5400 RPM drive with anything in the $600 range, especially when the A8 gets beat out handily by the Core i5. Plus the AMD system actually cost more than all but one of them.

I know, it's a lot to extrapolate from a single page but it just has been the same damn tone for so long. I don't care about Dell desktops anyhow. I was on Dell to price out servers for a client that insists on it. Ohhh by the way, 2TB SATA Enterprise drives cost $666 if you didn't know, thanks for the heads up Dell.
Last edited by Welch on Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Dell has never liked AMD, even in the good old days at the turn of the century.

I have no idea if you're correct or not, but this is nothing new.
 
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:11 pm

You new here son?? :wink:

Dell has been a "wholly-owned" subsidiary of Intel since Intel first figured out that Michael Dell could REALLY move the product. The only reason they sell ANY AMD is to avoid the anti-trust watchdogs.

Not like anyone will talk about it, but my guess is that Dell gets Intel's absolute best pricing.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:39 pm

Outside of conspiracy-theory shenanigans, I'd expect volume commitments to be an issue at Dell (and HP). Further, while AMD's Ryzen is a darling among enthusiasts, Dell sees it missing two important things next to a similarly priced i5/i7: it lacks integrated video, and it lacks ECC support so it can't be marketed as a 'budget' workstation powerhouse.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:10 pm

Most of Intel's consumer chips don't support ECC either. Last I checked, with very few exceptions you need to get a Xeon if you want ECC support on an Intel platform.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:20 pm

I think with Dell AMD is pretty much cheap laptop bait, and mostly for 'professional' markets rather than consumer markets.

I don't know about right now though. HP doesn't usually have a hell of a lot more, but they do nonetheless have more.

Zen based APUs may well change the market, but it remains to be seen how much uptake they'll get overall.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:38 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
You new here son?? :wink:

Dell has been a "wholly-owned" subsidiary of Intel since Intel first figured out that Michael Dell could REALLY move the product. The only reason they sell ANY AMD is to avoid the anti-trust watchdogs.

Not like anyone will talk about it, but my guess is that Dell gets Intel's absolute best pricing.


:lol:

Feels like it sometimes. The landscape of TR is so much more aggressive and sarcastic than it ever was 13 years ago when I joined. But meh, it rolls off like water on a duck.

I guess I've always noticed Dell pulling this crap, but didn't really get into convos about it with fellow gerbils.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:53 pm

Welch wrote:
I guess I've always noticed Dell pulling this crap, but didn't really get into convos about it with fellow gerbils.

Heck, this particular bit goes back to the Slot A Athlon days, if not before.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:08 pm

Truly Ned, this story is about 15-20 years old, or a "rebrand" of the old conundrum. I used to wonder why, since margins on AMD chips have always been extremely low (good for reseller), and the chip prices were fairly low (good for resller), and the performance has occasionally been there (Thunderbird e.g., good for resellers) - and yet the biggest reseller just would not offer AMD as an option, ostensibly due to supply concerns. Once most fears were assuaged and the outcry was pretty pronounced, they started to offer gimped, lame-brained systems; neutered and handicapped versions of the equivalent Intel systems. Would you like a fanless, dust-free i3 system with vPro and 1Gb ethernet? Oh you like AMD; here have a system with a CPU fan, a PSU fan, a GPU fan, an exhaust fan, 100 Mb ethernet, and no management...and no L3 cache (Athlon Athlon Athlon. Phenom who?)
 
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:02 pm

Vhalidictes wrote:
Dell has never liked AMD, even in the good old days at the turn of the century.

I have no idea if you're correct or not, but this is nothing new.


No. Intel was paying Dell, sometimes more than Dell's net profit, to not use AMD.

And since than AMD hasn't really had a competitve product. Up until now.

Dell just hasn't had a refresh of any of their computers since Ryzen hit market I believe.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:09 pm

AMD has never managed to cozy up to any of the major OEMs. Their entire large-accounts team should have been fired years ago for completely failing at sales forever. Except whoever brokered the XBone/PS4 deal, that's an actual legitimate win and a big one too.
 
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:53 pm

I can't wait till Naples shows up in Dell's books. At the very least, there will be a few models to keep Intel honest.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:00 pm

NovusBogus wrote:
AMD has never managed to cozy up to any of the major OEMs. Their entire large-accounts team should have been fired years ago for completely failing at sales forever. Except whoever brokered the XBone/PS4 deal, that's an actual legitimate win and a big one too.

Well then, find a way to reverse this "truism": "No one ever got fired for buying Intel".
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:26 pm

NovusBogus wrote:
AMD has never managed to cozy up to any of the major OEMs. Their entire large-accounts team should have been fired years ago for completely failing at sales forever. Except whoever brokered the XBone/PS4 deal, that's an actual legitimate win and a big one too.

When they had better products, Intel bribed everyone. If Hector Ruiz is to be believed, one-million free CPUs was turned down by HP because fear of Intel.
When they had worse products. Well, they didn't exactly sell very well to OEMs. Because Intel was better for most tasks, and Intel was what more people would connect with as a brand.

I very much dislike AMD's sales/marketing. But I'm really not sure what changes could yield real improvements for large-accounts teams.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:02 am

NoOne ButMe wrote:
I very much dislike AMD's sales/marketing. But I'm really not sure what changes could yield real improvements for large-accounts teams.

The only thing AMD could do/have done is the one thing it's never been financially capable to do/have done. Meet or exceed Intel's marketing budget.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:11 am

NoOne ButMe wrote:
NovusBogus wrote:
AMD has never managed to cozy up to any of the major OEMs. Their entire large-accounts team should have been fired years ago for completely failing at sales forever. Except whoever brokered the XBone/PS4 deal, that's an actual legitimate win and a big one too.

When they had better products, Intel bribed everyone. If Hector Ruiz is to be believed, one-million free CPUs was turned down by HP because fear of Intel.
When they had worse products. Well, they didn't exactly sell very well to OEMs. Because Intel was better for most tasks, and Intel was what more people would connect with as a brand.

I very much dislike AMD's sales/marketing. But I'm really not sure what changes could yield real improvements for large-accounts teams.


Well, perhaps it's time for an AMD-only brand, like XFX or Sapphire is for their GPUs. XFX and Sapphire don't give a crap about nVidia, and they only sell AMD-based graphics cards. Perhaps one (or both) of them should be juiced up into super-AMD solutions providers, who are willing to grow at whatever rate the AMD CPU market grows, offer the best overall deals on AMD-based CPU/GPU systems, and don't care about Intel. "Intel? Who's that? No, sorry, we don't SELL any computers with THAT kind of chip. We only sell GOOD computers." Seriously, though, I think the time may be fast coming when AMD could do this. They may just actually become better than either Intel or nVidia through sheer technological prowess. :)
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:50 am

Captain Ned wrote:
NoOne ButMe wrote:
I very much dislike AMD's sales/marketing. But I'm really not sure what changes could yield real improvements for large-accounts teams.

The only thing AMD could do/have done is the one thing it's never been financially capable to do/have done. Meet or exceed Intel's marketing budget.

I don't think that would matter. I think they would need to exceed Intel's bribing budget.

Or have enough capacity to be able to fulfil a large OEMs supply of CPUs 100% while still supplying the rest of the market. Fab 8 and Fab S2. Maybe even 12P6/7, 14B and S3 for future Zen products. Wonder how much capacity AMD can tap?

I recall rumors of Llano in the MBA, called off by AMD lacking capacity. I think if AMD has enough capacity to fully replace Intel that Zen is good enough to make it possible. So while I hope for something as Anubis44 says, I think it will not matter anyway. Under 2 weeks til we know how good Zen launched at!
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:02 am

NoOne ButMe wrote:
I don't think that would matter. I think they would need to exceed Intel's bribing budget.

Ah, young padawan gerbil, there is but a small step between marketing and bribing. I was simply being polite.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:50 am

I guess I wasn't the only one.... Check this article about Carrizo.

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/2 ... ds-carrizo
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:55 am

Captain Ned wrote:
NoOne ButMe wrote:
I don't think that would matter. I think they would need to exceed Intel's bribing budget.

Ah, young padawan gerbil, there is but a small step between marketing and bribing. I was simply being polite.


Wait a minute! Marketing and Bribing are not the same thing?!

Kind of like how lobbying and bribing are not the same thing?! :D
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:33 am

Welch wrote:
I guess I wasn't the only one.... Check this article about Carrizo.

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/2 ... ds-carrizo

This was not an Intel conspiracy or anything. The reason Carrizo failed is explicitly stated in that article.
The reason for this is cost. When AMD launched Carrizo and Carrizo-L (refreshed Beema), it talked about how using a unified platform for both chips would allow OEMs to save money on design costs. Unfortunately, Carrizo-L is a single-channel design. Instead of building motherboards that could handle two channels and simply disabling one when using Carrizo-L, several manufacturers opted to limit Carrizo to a single channel in the first place.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:38 am

Captain Ned wrote:
NovusBogus wrote:
AMD has never managed to cozy up to any of the major OEMs. Their entire large-accounts team should have been fired years ago for completely failing at sales forever. Except whoever brokered the XBone/PS4 deal, that's an actual legitimate win and a big one too.

Well then, find a way to reverse this "truism": "No one ever got fired for buying Intel".


Having used AMD based systems for many years, then Intel systems for a number of years after that, I can see why that "truism" could be used. I found AMD systems to be solid performers (even great performers) but always seemed to have little quirks. The Intel systems I've used/built have always "just worked". Again anecdotal, but I could see why there could be a "No one ever got fired for buying Intel" adage.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:54 am

Chipset support has historically been a problem with AMD. Back in the day, VIA and Nvidia chipsets definitely had their quirks. More recently (with AMD moving chipset design in-house) the issue has been failure to keep up with evolving standards (e.g. lack of a native USB 3.0 solution for AM3+). We'll see how things go with the Ryzen chipsets; hopefully they've got their act together now.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:00 am

just brew it! wrote:
Back in the day, VIA and Nvidia chipsets definitely had their quirks.

Truth. A good chunk of the early forums was how to beat VIA KT266/333/400 chipsets into playing nice (if at all). There was a time when all one had to say was Darth VIA.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:19 am

Or you could go with an AMD chipset and get more stability, at the expense of performance. IIRC AMD chipsets locked FSB and DRAM clocks 1:1 back in the Slot/Socket A days, whereas VIA and Nvidia did not. Async FSB/DRAM provided more opportunities for performance tweaking, but the additional complexity may have been a contributing factor to the stability issues.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:21 am

Not looking to debate it, but I would personally NEVER devote large amounts of my company's product lines or quality bin parts to a company who has been gushing blood for the better part of a DECADE. If the intel counterparts are slightly more expensive, I'd go with them EVERY time because I know::

They can keep up with manufacturing demands
Wont possibly disappear overnight in a company sale, or hostile take over and upset my product lines
Have better relationships and support with other vendors
Has multiple magnitudes better brand recognition.

Sure there are predatory incentives.. But golly gee welcome to capitalism. No way is anyone dedicating more than trivial test level product lines at this very moment. AMD has to prove it will survive and thrive before AMD might be in a Dell AlienWare box. And that's just that.. in a year or so we may see top trier desktops with the option for a AMD cpu.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:31 am

GloFo is big enough now (they've become the Borg of fabs lately) that production capacity should not be an issue any longer; and product life cycles for CPUs are short enough that whether the company is still around 2 years down the road is not super-critical. For commodity desktop/laptop systems It's all about margins (after "marketing" kickbacks, of course).
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:31 am

just brew it! wrote:
Or you could go with an AMD chipset and get more stability, at the expense of performance. IIRC AMD chipsets locked FSB and DRAM clocks 1:1 back in the Slot/Socket A days, whereas VIA and Nvidia did not. Async FSB/DRAM provided more opportunities for performance tweaking, but the additional complexity may have been a contributing factor to the stability issues.


I had an AMD 760 Memory controller develop a fault at 512MB all of its own accord. That took ages to debug as it would randomly corrupt ntfs.sys, so at first I thought it would drive controller problems, then RAM. Nope if was the AMD chipset.
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:33 am

srg86 wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Or you could go with an AMD chipset and get more stability, at the expense of performance. IIRC AMD chipsets locked FSB and DRAM clocks 1:1 back in the Slot/Socket A days, whereas VIA and Nvidia did not. Async FSB/DRAM provided more opportunities for performance tweaking, but the additional complexity may have been a contributing factor to the stability issues.

I had an AMD 760 Memory controller develop a fault at 512MB all of its own accord. That took ages to debug as it would randomly corrupt ntfs.sys, so at first I thought it would drive controller problems, then RAM. Nope if was the AMD chipset.

Interesting. That sort of fault is pretty rare though. And it could've been the motherboard (bad trace or solder joint on an address line).
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Re: Dell Hates AMD?

Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:37 am

just brew it! wrote:
srg86 wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Or you could go with an AMD chipset and get more stability, at the expense of performance. IIRC AMD chipsets locked FSB and DRAM clocks 1:1 back in the Slot/Socket A days, whereas VIA and Nvidia did not. Async FSB/DRAM provided more opportunities for performance tweaking, but the additional complexity may have been a contributing factor to the stability issues.

I had an AMD 760 Memory controller develop a fault at 512MB all of its own accord. That took ages to debug as it would randomly corrupt ntfs.sys, so at first I thought it would drive controller problems, then RAM. Nope if was the AMD chipset.

Interesting. That sort of fault is pretty rare though. And it could've been the motherboard (bad trace or solder joint on an address line).


True, it was a nice Abit board as well, It was a shame to have to throw that board away. In the end I replaced it with an nVidia nForce2 based board and that was solid. Sadly the only SATA was a promise controller that had extremely spotty Linux support (my first attempts at switching to Linux failed because of it).
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