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whm1974
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So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:21 pm

Now I know the the Computering Powers That Be are currently working on the DDR5 and PCIe 5 standards and I have been wondering when we will see such hardware first released? My guess is 2020 at the earliest and very likely much later. I do have to have to ask to be sure, but my understanding is that most end users will not see much benefit from these improvements, at least not for a long time yet.

As far as both standards go, I am giving some thought that NVMe drives would get a huge bump up with PCIe 5 and that DDR5 will allow for higher performance iGPUs. Any thoughts?
 
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:28 pm

Speculation is generally only as good as the info available. I'm not sure I've heard anything with regards to those standards.

PCIe 4 was just announced mid last year and I don't think anyone is shipping products with it yet.

As for higher performance iGPUs I suspect only where single channel was used, but we'll see. I'd guess it'll just mean more laptops go single channel considering it's not that uncommon now.
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:31 pm

Ahh, el wiki
In June 2017, PCI-SIG preliminarily announced the PCI Express 5.0 specification.[50] Bandwidth is expected to increase to 32 GT/s, yielding 128 GB/s in full duplex networking configurations. It is expected to be standardized in 2019.

So yeah hardware with that would be late 2020 or 2021 I'd think.
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:32 pm

Go study.
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:48 pm

whm1974 wrote:
Any thoughts?

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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:08 pm

Aye, a perfect example of a classic whm1974 thread. :P
 
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:15 pm

Well, both will certainly provide significant benefits for bandwidth-intensive server workloads.

As far as consumer use cases go, I imagine DDR5 will provide some meaningful power savings for mobile devices, both through its inherently lower power usage, and by allowing mid-range laptops to use single-channel RAM. On the performance front, PCIe3 and DDR4 aren't significant bottlenecks for most consumer workloads, so yeah bumping the speed up doesn't gain us much.
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:19 pm

It'll be out sometime before it's needed, and it'll be become necessary sometime after release.
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:41 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
It'll be out sometime before it's needed, and it'll be become necessary sometime after release.

LOL... good one.

I would add that I don't expect either one to become mainstream any time soon. Probably 2022 at the earliest.
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:10 pm

Ars Technica wrote:
Like DDR4 back when it was announced, it will still be several years before any of us have DDR5 RAM in our systems. That's partly because the memory controllers in processors and SoCs need to be updated to support DDR5, and these chips normally take two or three years to design from start to finish. DDR4 RAM was finalized in 2012, but it didn't begin to go mainstream until 2015 when consumer processors from Intel and others added support for it.


https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/03 ... 4-in-2018/

AMD last year stated don't expect PCIe v4.0 on their CPU's until 2020.
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whm1974
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:49 pm

biffzinker wrote:
Ars Technica wrote:
Like DDR4 back when it was announced, it will still be several years before any of us have DDR5 RAM in our systems. That's partly because the memory controllers in processors and SoCs need to be updated to support DDR5, and these chips normally take two or three years to design from start to finish. DDR4 RAM was finalized in 2012, but it didn't begin to go mainstream until 2015 when consumer processors from Intel and others added support for it.


https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/03 ... 4-in-2018/

AMD last year stated don't expect PCIe v4.0 on their CPU's until 2020.

I' pretty sure that we won't see PCIe v4.0 being used as v5.0 is supposed to be out next year. So it would make sense to simply skip over v4.0 and go straight to v5.0.
 
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:02 pm

whm1974 wrote:
I' pretty sure that we won't see PCIe v4.0 being used as v5.0 is supposed to be out next year. So it would make sense to simply skip over v4.0 and go straight to v5.0.

Taiwanese mobo makers don't have your shiny object/squirrel issues.
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whm1974
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:06 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
I' pretty sure that we won't see PCIe v4.0 being used as v5.0 is supposed to be out next year. So it would make sense to simply skip over v4.0 and go straight to v5.0.

Taiwanese mobo makers don't have your shiny object/squirrel issues.

What shiny object/squirrel issues? Both my desktop and notebook are five years old, so I haven't been buying the latest and greatest hardware now have I?
 
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:13 pm

I was going to plan an upgrade, but then I got distracted.

Or rather, I did plan an upgrade, and then I got distracted after that.

And then I bought a bunch of parts which have been sitting in my closet for several months, but I got distracted before putting it all together.
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:51 pm

whm1974 wrote:
I' pretty sure that we won't see PCIe v4.0 being used as v5.0 is supposed to be out next year. So it would make sense to simply skip over v4.0 and go straight to v5.0.

No, the standard is supposed to be finalized sometime next year. That doesn't mean consumer products will be out.

It'll probably be another year after that before we see CPUs, chipsets, motherboards, and add-in cards taking advantage of it. New silicon needs to be designed and validated, test equipment needs to be upgraded, boards need to be designed, and firmware/drivers tweaked and debugged. All of these things take time.

And it'll probably be another year or two after that before it becomes mainstream.
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:23 pm

I give it at least 4 years from today before general availability. Consumers aren't driving demand like they used to, and very few markets need PCIe 3, let alone 4 or 5.
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 6:51 pm

Waco wrote:
I give it at least 4 years from today before general availability. Consumers aren't driving demand like they used to, and very few markets need PCIe 3, let alone 4 or 5.

Yup. Aside from HPC and ultra-high bandwidth I/O, what needs it? I could maybe see a case being made for GPUs, but even that is iffy, given that anything bandwidth intensive is done using the GPU's onboard RAM these days.
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whm1974
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:56 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Waco wrote:
I give it at least 4 years from today before general availability. Consumers aren't driving demand like they used to, and very few markets need PCIe 3, let alone 4 or 5.

Yup. Aside from HPC and ultra-high bandwidth I/O, what needs it? I could maybe see a case being made for GPUs, but even that is iffy, given that anything bandwidth intensive is done using the GPU's onboard RAM these days.

Allowing for more powerful iGPUs? I'm sure both Intel and especially AMD will love the increased bandwidth.
 
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:26 pm

whm1974 wrote:
Allowing for more powerful iGPUs? I'm sure both Intel and especially AMD will love the increased bandwidth.

Sure, but PCIe has nothing to do with iGPUs, and memory bandwidth for iGPUs is always going to be constrained since CPUs with iGPUs tend to have single/dual channel memory at most.
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whm1974
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:28 pm

Waco wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
Allowing for more powerful iGPUs? I'm sure both Intel and especially AMD will love the increased bandwidth.

Sure, but PCIe has nothing to do with iGPUs, and memory bandwidth for iGPUs is always going to be constrained since CPUs with iGPUs tend to have single/dual channel memory at most.

Sorry I meant with using DDR5 memory.
 
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Re: So when are DDR5 and PCIe 5 going to be out? Needed?

Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:39 pm

whm1974 wrote:
Sorry I meant with using DDR5 memory.

That's what I was addressing...
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