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TurtlePerson2
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Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:23 pm

I've got kind of an interesting problem with my system right now, and I'd like some thought from fellow gerbils before I take my next step.

My system had been having occasional crashes and I had been thinking that 2019 or 2020 might be when I finally replace my 2011 system. Unfortunately, on New Year's Eve, the computer would no longer boot. It would boot in safe mode and it would boot if I uninstalled the graphics driver, but Windows 7 and Windows 10 both wouldn't work with the graphics driver installed.

I figured the problem was the GPU, so I bought an RX 580 and sure enough the system booted again. But I noticed when I turned the computer on that the BIOS screen was all messed up (I had been seeing some artifacts on it with the previous graphics card). I did a clean install of Windows 10 and I now have the following problems.

1.) The system can't sleep. When it wakes up, the screens don't turn on, but the computer seems to be running.
2.) Every other boot-up doesn't work. I need to push the reset button, then it works fine.
3.) After starting up, one of the monitors (connected through DVI) starts to flash a static pattern with greater frequency until I just see the static pattern (turning off the monitor causes this to go away and it doesn't reappear). This might be the DVI cable, but I wasn't having this issue with the previous GPU.

I also had the ethernet port on my motherboard die last year and have had one of the USB ports also stop working. I'm kind of thinking that this might be a motherboard problem. Does that make sense? Would a bad PCI-E lane cause this? I would try my other PCI-E lane, but it's blocked by the PSU. Has anyone ever had issues like this before?

Right now, I'm planning to either live with the system as is or replace the mobo/CPU/RAM later in the year. It just seems a shame because my 2011 CPU and RAM are proving up to the task in every game I try. It's kind of amazing that a 2017 graphics card isn't bottlenecked by a 2011 CPU.
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:55 pm

My first guess would be a software issue from the change in hardware and the change in drivers (even if the old card was another Radeon) not going through 100% clean.

I'm hoping other people here with more Windows experience can help you with replacing the drivers without having to go through the hassle of an OS reinstall.
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:00 pm

Sounds like it might be a Mobo issue. I had one that would cook graphics cards, and I didn't suspect the mobo until the USB slots started dying. Unfortunately there's no way way to test that hypothesis.

If it were a driver or windows thing, I don't think you'd notice it on boot.
 
TurtlePerson2
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:14 am

chuckula wrote:
My first guess would be a software issue from the change in hardware and the change in drivers (even if the old card was another Radeon) not going through 100% clean.

I'm hoping other people here with more Windows experience can help you with replacing the drivers without having to go through the hassle of an OS reinstall.

I did a clean install of Windows on a brand new SSD when I got the new GPU. It's probably not a driver issue. And I noticed that static even during the Windows installing process.

By the way, powering on a computer with a fresh Windows 10 install, on a SSD is way faster than my old computer used to wake up from sleep.
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:15 am

My list of suspects would be the motherboard and the PSU. You could get weird behaviour if the PSU power delivery is inconsistent. It may also cause damage to components (such as your dead GPU, USB, and ethernet port).
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:35 am

I've had a glitchy/artifacted bios screen, replaced the GPU with no luck, ended up being the PSU. Also worth checking memory one stick at a time.
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:58 am

Sounds like the mobo is dying, and taking the PSU with it (or vice versa). You could just get a new oversized PSU, see if that works, and carry on. Not sure why you would want to do this if you've had a few ports already die. You're just putting the thing on temporary life support...
 
TurtlePerson2
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:11 am

What's the reason for suspecting the PSU? I would assume that most of the hardware has circuitry that checks for undervolting or overvolting and responds accordingly.

I saw something on the motherboard box (I still have it after all this time) that says the capacitors are rated for 30,000 hours or something like that. When I did the math, I realized that I was probably at that limit.
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:33 am

I've had something this happen to me before and the culprit was indeed the PSU. It was a pretty long time ago though and my rig then was a Q6600+8800GT.

To be specific, it was getting artifacting in games, generally low framerates and overall system instability. Occasionally it would get glitchy even on the BIOS screen. I moved the graphics card over to a different system and it worked fine so started suspecting the mobo, but since it would've been a PITA to disassemble everything I decided to try moving my secondary rig's PSU over instead and that fixed it.

IMO motherboards should be generally less prone to failure than PSUs because they'll have been using solid state caps for a few years now, whereas PSUs will still have cans of goo.
 
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:40 am

TurtlePerson2 wrote:
What's the reason for suspecting the PSU? I would assume that most of the hardware has circuitry that checks for undervolting or overvolting and responds accordingly.

I saw something on the motherboard box (I still have it after all this time) that says the capacitors are rated for 30,000 hours or something like that. When I did the math, I realized that I was probably at that limit.


PSU caps age too. From the sounds of it, your motherboard is either dying or is getting fried by a bad PSU. Coincidentally, my 2011 Haswell system started acting up in September, and would fail every other boot. Since it was getting to that time anyway, I decided to upgrade everything to a Coffee Lake build (wanted to wait for Zen 2, oh well). I'd tried replacing the CMOS battery to see if it was just a dying battery, but that didn't do anything for me.

You can get PSU testers for ~$20, but they don't tell you much other than if they're delivering under- or over- voltage at idle load. An old PSU might suffer from vdroop, or have excessive ripple, or have transient spikes that don't get picked up unless you have an oscilloscope. I'd replace the mobo and PSU just to be safe.
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:41 am

TurtlePerson2 wrote:
What's the reason for suspecting the PSU? I would assume that most of the hardware has circuitry that checks for undervolting or overvolting and responds accordingly.

Image
 
TurtlePerson2
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:59 am

It's probably worth mentioning that I have noticed when my PSU is turned off (PSU power switch, not computer power switch), I can audibly hear it discharging. Also, when it's turned on, I can hear some noise on my computer speakers, which are near it.

I really don't want it to be a PSU problem though, because my computer has a high end PSU in it and I doubt I'd get something so quiet and modular if I have to replace it.
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:59 am

Do you have the PSU slack to partially remove it from the system, opening that other PCIe slot? Nothing needs to be pretty when you're troubleshooting.

TurtlePerson2 wrote:
What's the reason for suspecting the PSU? I would assume that most of the hardware has circuitry that checks for undervolting or overvolting and responds accordingly.
Voltage isn't current. A power supply can output the "correct" voltage in a test state but crash when a real load is applied (because it can't source enough current to the given load).
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:37 am

TurtlePerson2 wrote:
I really don't want it to be a PSU problem though, because my computer has a high end PSU in it and I doubt I'd get something so quiet and modular if I have to replace it.


I can completely understand that -- however, PSUs don't last forever, and when they go they have a nasty habit of taking other components with them.
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:41 am

K-L-Waster wrote:
TurtlePerson2 wrote:
I really don't want it to be a PSU problem though, because my computer has a high end PSU in it and I doubt I'd get something so quiet and modular if I have to replace it.


I can completely understand that -- however, PSUs don't last forever, and when they go they have a nasty habit of taking other components with them.


^^^^^^^ This

If your power supply is starting to show signs of not providing stable amperage on 12V and 5V rails. It is time to replace it. I have seen PSU capacitor failures taking out HDDs and motherboards. There are now plenty of reliable, low-noise/near-silence PSU SKUs out there (Seasonic, Siiverstone, FSP, Corsair).
Last edited by Krogoth on Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TurtlePerson2
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:59 am

I really miss the days of having essentially an entire computer in spare components in my closet. I built those spare components into a PC for a sibling in 2010 and haven't had anything spare since then.

It would have been easy to diagnose these problems if I was able to swap stuff out without having to buy a new component.
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:15 pm

TurtlePerson2 wrote:
What's the reason for suspecting the PSU?


PSU's and power delivery on the mainboard cause all kinds of weird issues.
since the PSU is usually beat up the most from power line issues it's a good place to start.
And most people have sucky no name power supplies to boot esp if it is a name brand machine like HP or Dell.
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:46 pm

Aranarth wrote:
TurtlePerson2 wrote:
What's the reason for suspecting the PSU?


PSU's and power delivery on the mainboard cause all kinds of weird issues.
since the PSU is usually beat up the most from power line issues it's a good place to start.
And most people have sucky no name power supplies to boot esp if it is a name brand machine like HP or Dell.

I won the computer at Quakecon in 2011 playing in a late-night Counterstrike tournament. It was built by some sort of small high-end gaming computer manufacturer. Everything about the build was great, including a very nice power supply that is very efficient and provides way more watts than the system needed.
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:33 pm

TurtlePerson2 wrote:
I won the computer at Quakecon in 2011 playing in a late-night Counterstrike tournament. It was built by some sort of small high-end gaming computer manufacturer. Everything about the build was great, including a very nice power supply that is very efficient and provides way more watts than the system needed.

Then it's sad if the PSU is dying now, if it's got such sentimental value.

At least it lasted nearly 7.5 years, and I hope it hasn't caused too much damage to the motherboard.
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:20 pm

If I had a motherboard go bad for seemingly no reason (i.e. not 10 years old, covered in layers of dust, or shipped recently) then I would immediately suspect power delivery or a surge. You can open the case and sniff around for a burnt smell. No doesn't mean nothing got fried, but if yes then you'll know something is.

If everything else seems to be in working order, I'd count my lucky stars and replace the mobo and PSU. I'd never keep the same power supply after any power issues. Whether or not it caused the problem, it was likely affected. You need to do long term testing with the right equipment to re-certify it as good.
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TurtlePerson2
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:18 am

Maybe 3 years back, the liquid cooling liquid, started leaking onto the motherboard and graphics card. I replaced the cooler and was impressed at the time that it didn't damage anything. Looking back, maybe that caused some of these problems now.
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:19 am

TurtlePerson2 wrote:
Maybe 3 years back, the liquid cooling liquid, started leaking onto the motherboard and graphics card. I replaced the cooler and was impressed at the time that it didn't damage anything. Looking back, maybe that caused some of these problems now.

I suppose that's possible, though I kind of doubt it. If it was gonna fry something, it would've probably happened right away.

The risk of leaks is the reason I've avoided liquid cooling... there are already enough ways to fry components without adding the possibility of shorts caused by coolant leaks to the mix! :lol:
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:22 pm

just brew it! wrote:
TurtlePerson2 wrote:
Maybe 3 years back, the liquid cooling liquid, started leaking onto the motherboard and graphics card. I replaced the cooler and was impressed at the time that it didn't damage anything. Looking back, maybe that caused some of these problems now.

I suppose that's possible, though I kind of doubt it. If it was gonna fry something, it would've probably happened right away.

The risk of leaks is the reason I've avoided liquid cooling... there are already enough ways to fry components without adding the possibility of shorts caused by coolant leaks to the mix! :lol:


Water can cause corrosion damage which can take months or years to take effect.

Not saying it's likely, just that it's possible.
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:32 pm

What year is the mobo? The coin cell batteries on them can get low after 7 years. Might be worth replacing it and updating the BIOS.

Your first line though you had system wouldn't boot then you replaced graphics card?
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TurtlePerson2
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:06 pm

anotherengineer wrote:
What year is the mobo? The coin cell batteries on them can get low after 7 years. Might be worth replacing it and updating the BIOS.

Your first line though you had system wouldn't boot then you replaced graphics card?


The mobo is 2011. I did update the BIOS a week ago and didn't notice any immediate changes. Is the coin battery needed if the computer remains plugged in? I imagine that that battery is really only required to store BIOS settings and if you're using default settings it shouldn't really matter.

As an update, the sleep issue has gone away. The computer works fine in sleep now. The only remaining issue is the screen flickering during start up, which I haven't yet tried a new DVI cable (don't have one) or my spare monitor.
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:17 pm

What motherboard are you using?
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:04 pm

thecoldanddarkone wrote:
What motherboard are you using?


Gigabyte 990FXA UD3. It was hot stuff back in the day.

Here's the link on Gigabyte's page: https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-990FXA-UD3-rev-10#ov
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:13 pm

TurtlePerson2 wrote:
anotherengineer wrote:
What year is the mobo? The coin cell batteries on them can get low after 7 years. Might be worth replacing it and updating the BIOS.

Your first line though you had system wouldn't boot then you replaced graphics card?


The mobo is 2011. I did update the BIOS a week ago and didn't notice any immediate changes. Is the coin battery needed if the computer remains plugged in? I imagine that that battery is really only required to store BIOS settings and if you're using default settings it shouldn't really matter.

As an update, the sleep issue has gone away. The computer works fine in sleep now. The only remaining issue is the screen flickering during start up, which I haven't yet tried a new DVI cable (don't have one) or my spare monitor.


I do believe the coin cell is required even if it is plugged in. Should be a CR2032 battery. 8 years old, I think I would be replacing it. I had the same mobo, I found the latest bios in beta ran the sata at 2x speed instead of 3x speed, I think F14b ran at 3x. you can use atto to see if your ssd is hitting 540MB/s
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:16 am

Check the voltages in the BIOS. If any output voltage seems to be beyond +5%, that is a recipe for component death through overvolting.
 
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Re: Lots of Minor Issues after Graphics Card Upgrade

Sat Jan 19, 2019 6:39 am

TurtlePerson2 wrote:
Is the coin battery needed if the computer remains plugged in?

I think the answer is "no", but it may depend on the motherboard (i.e. whether it uses the +5VSB or some other rail to power the CMOS).

TurtlePerson2 wrote:
I imagine that that battery is really only required to store BIOS settings and if you're using default settings it shouldn't really matter.

The battery also runs the clock/calendar when the system is powered down. Time and date resetting when the computer is powered off is another symptom of a dead battery.
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