Personal computing discussed

Moderators: renee, morphine, SecretSquirrel

 
Concupiscence
Silver subscriber
Gerbil Elite
Topic Author
Posts: 686
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:58 am
Location: Dallas area, Texas, USA
Contact:

Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:45 am

It may not be a miracle of silicon out of the gate, but the idea of three capable GPU vendors all vying for consumer dollars has me kind of excited. I'm looking forward to seeing what they offer, how capable it is for OpenCL compute, and to day one Linux support. What about the rest of you?
Media: Core i9 7940x, 32 gigs RAM, RX Vega 56, Win10 Pro
Science: Ryzen 7 1700, 16 gigs RAM, GTX Titan Xm, Xubuntu 18.04
Potato Peeler: Core i5 750 @ 3.6, 12 gigs RAM, FirePro V8800, Various OSes

Read my words at https://www.wallabyjones.com/
 
K-L-Waster
Gerbil XP
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:10 pm
Location: Hmmm, I was *here* a second ago...

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:17 pm

It's a little too undefined to get me excited yet. I get excited about specific purchasable products. Until they have a specific card with specific capabilities and a launch date, it's vapourware.

Will they produce credible competition to AMD and NVidia? No clue. If they do, great, but way too early to get goose bumps over it.
Main System: i7-8700K, ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-E, 16 GB DDR4 3200 RAM, MSI GTX 1080 TI, 1 TB CRUCIAL MX500, Corsair 550D

HTPC: I5-4460, ASUS H97M-E, 8 GB RAM, GTX 970, CRUCIAL 256GB MX100, SILVERSTONE GD09B
 
just brew it!
Gold subscriber
Administrator
Posts: 53333
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:51 pm
Location: Somewhere, having a beer

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:29 pm

I assume most of us remember how well Larrabee worked out...
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
chuckula
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2109
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:18 pm
Location: Probably where I don't belong.

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:49 pm

While I'm of course contractually obligated to be excited, I would seriously expect no miracles from at least the first generation of Intel dGPUs.

First of all, even though they have Raj, the Artic Sound GPUs aren't some made-from-scratch new GPU. Based on info from last month's architecture day, the first GPUs will be an upscaled version of the Ice Lake graphics cores with a few tweaks thrown in (look for Gen 11.5 nomenclature). That's probably good enough to make a respectable GPU but don't expect crazy ray tracing or some other wacky technology that's radically different from what you expect in a GPU.

Second of all, while the FUD about Intel's 10nm process being broken is far too strong, don't expect Intel to churn out massive GPU silicon in 2020 since there are other departments that will be gobbling it up. That means you shouldn't expect some 500 mm2 consumer GPU to drop anytime soon. The most interesting (and totally unconfirmed) rumor I've heard is that Intel may scale by using EMIB to connect smaller GPU tiles together. A fascinating idea that bizarrely enough isn't used in GPUs already even though we've been chipletted to death in CPUs.

Here's what I would call a successful outcome for Intel: The highest end Xe parts are pretty competitive with the higher end of "mainstream" 2020 GPUs while having reasonable prices. Things like Navi (which slots in below the Radeon VII) or a mid-range Nvidia card, but not the gamer-extreme cards where Intel probably won't compete.
4770K @ 4.7 GHz; 32GB DDR3-2133; Officially RX-560... that's right AMD you shills!; 512GB 840 Pro (2x); Fractal Define XL-R2; NZXT Kraken-X60
--Many thanks to the TR Forum for advice in getting it built.
 
UberGerbil
Grand Admiral Gerbil
Posts: 10368
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:11 pm

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:36 pm

just brew it! wrote:
I assume most of us remember how well Larrabee worked out...

And some of us are old enough to remember how the i860 worked out before that (though arguably it had more success as a "GPU" than as a general purpose CPU, it still wasn't great). Intel's track record of doing anything non-x86 is rather...underwhelming.

Assuming they are just pulling the IGP out of their processors and making it moar (in terms of functional units), it will be interesting to see how it performs when given its own memory without any contention with the CPU. I suppose they could add some on-chip edram or go with a multiple chiplet approach to surprise people, but at this point I see it more as a way for them to eat up idle fab capacity (especially when/if they ever get the CPUs transitioned to a genuinely shrunk node).

If they can produce something performance-competitive at around the $200 price point without losing money, and if their driver guys don't screw things up and undercut the hardware, they should have a success. At the very least, they could win over some of the OEMs who are currently sourcing mid-range products from the red and green teams.

The other thing I'm curious about is whether (or how much) Intel is targeting mobile with this part. They certainly have an opportunity to win over the ODMs who are currently throwing yet-another-rebranded MX-whatever into "gaming laptops."
 
Xolore
Gold subscriber
Gerbil
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:27 pm

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:06 pm

As I understand it, Arctic Sound was developed initially as an edge computing device. Which means stuff like video streaming cards for servers. I imagine that once they had started designing what was effectively a discreet gpu they figured they could make some extra money selling it into the dgpu market. Perhaps that's part of why they hired Raj. They needed more business expertise in the dgpu market.

I'd hazard a guess that their first outing will be more low end. Like in the $100 - $150 market. Something that might be considered in the htpc market considering it's original design considerations. I'm really mostly curious if they're committed to this enough to really step up their game and do more on the driver front and start working with game devs more to really get in and compete or are they just trying to find an alternate market to scoop up some extra sales for cards aimed primarily at other markets? I think it would be in their interest to put some pressure on nvidia in that space if they can. I guess time will tell.
 
dragontamer5788
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:39 am

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:38 pm

just brew it! wrote:
I assume most of us remember how well Larrabee worked out...


This time, Intel actually has graphics gurus (ie: ATI's Raja) who can properly make a GPU. And maybe Intel's executives will give more leeway to Graphics-specialists to actually make a proper GPU this time.

Then again: Intel always had some people who understood graphics programming in their organization. Their iGPU is a bit strange (shared memory is used across L3 cahce?? Not L1?? Uhhh....), but its clearly a parallel SIMD / GPGPU design. And IPSC was clearly written by a graphics guru (Mike Pharr, so I've been told). Intel needs to realize that GPGPU / SIMD programming is a completely different paradigm with its own history and culture.
Last edited by dragontamer5788 on Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
chuckula
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2109
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:18 pm
Location: Probably where I don't belong.

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:05 pm

just brew it! wrote:
I assume most of us remember how well Larrabee worked out...


We thought it was great!
-- Nvidia (ray tracing remember???!!)
4770K @ 4.7 GHz; 32GB DDR3-2133; Officially RX-560... that's right AMD you shills!; 512GB 840 Pro (2x); Fractal Define XL-R2; NZXT Kraken-X60
--Many thanks to the TR Forum for advice in getting it built.
 
Redocbew
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2151
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:44 am

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:25 pm

Do we know yet if it's going to be a consumer product? It's hard for me to get excited about something when I don't know anything about it. :P
Do not meddle in the affairs of archers, for they are subtle and you won't hear them coming.
 
Chrispy_
Maximum Gerbil
Posts: 4666
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: Europe, most frequently London.

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:05 pm

Intel IGP drivers have slowly changed from "downright useless" to "passable" over the last 18 months or so.
Game compatibility on Intel IGPs have changed from "might run" to "will probably run" in the last 18 months or so.

I'm not expecting miracles, but if Intel could scale up their IGPs without failing at performance/efficiency/drivers by a factor of 4 or more, I think they stand a good chance of stealing a lot of market share. Kaby/Coffee's UHD 630 IGP is passable for 720p30 at lowest settings in most games and they do that without dedicated GDDR and only 192 shaders. A Kaby/Coffee-based 768 or 1024 shader equivalent ought to hit 1080p60 at medium details and honestly that puts them in the running because the vast majority of people aren't buying anything faster than a GTX1060/RX570 right now.
Congratulations, you've noticed that this year's signature is based on outdated internet memes; CLICK HERE NOW to experience this unforgettable phenomenon. This sentence is just filler and as irrelevant as my signature.
 
DancinJack
Maximum Gerbil
Posts: 4493
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:21 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:25 pm

Redocbew wrote:
Do we know yet if it's going to be a consumer product? It's hard for me to get excited about something when I don't know anything about it. :P

Yeah, they are planning on HPC/workstation/server stuff and consumer stuff.

https://newsroom.intel.com/news-release ... ins-intel/
https://techreport.com/news/33995/intel ... er-account
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/in ... 932-3.html
i7 6700K - Z170 - 16GiB DDR4 - GTX 1080 - 512GB SSD - 256GB SSD - 500GB SSD - 3TB HDD- 27" IPS G-sync - Win10 Pro x64 - Ubuntu/Mint x64 :: 2015 13" rMBP Sierra :: Canon EOS 80D/Sony RX100
 
chuckula
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2109
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:18 pm
Location: Probably where I don't belong.

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:30 pm

Redocbew wrote:
Do we know yet if it's going to be a consumer product? It's hard for me to get excited about something when I don't know anything about it. :P


Really.. I find that I'm most excited about stuff BEFORE I know what it is! After those pesky things called "facts" and "reality" interfere I usually go Krogoth.
4770K @ 4.7 GHz; 32GB DDR3-2133; Officially RX-560... that's right AMD you shills!; 512GB 840 Pro (2x); Fractal Define XL-R2; NZXT Kraken-X60
--Many thanks to the TR Forum for advice in getting it built.
 
Waco
Gold subscriber
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3161
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Los Alamos, NM

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:33 pm

DancinJack wrote:
Redocbew wrote:
Do we know yet if it's going to be a consumer product? It's hard for me to get excited about something when I don't know anything about it. :P

Yeah, they are planning on HPC/workstation/server stuff and consumer stuff.

I know they have to cover compute and graphics, but it sure would be nice to see a GPU sold that was build *purely* for rasterization performance. It's been a while in the consumer space since we've had that.
Desktop: X570 Gaming X | 3900X | 32 GB | Alphacool Eisblock Radeon VII | Heatkiller R3 | Samsung 4K 40" | 1 TB NVME + 2 TB SATA + LSI (128x8) RAID
NAS: 1950X | Designare EX | 32 GB ECC | 7x8 TB RAIDZ2 | 8x2 TB RAID10 | FreeNAS | ZFS | LSI SAS
 
Redocbew
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2151
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:44 am

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:58 pm

DancinJack wrote:


... and I still don't know anything about it. :P

I guess the choices are that they make something that's specific to compute/HPC and jump on the machine learning bandwagon, or they try to cover all the bases by including graphics also. If one powerpoint slide is anything to go by, then it looks like they'll try to be covering all the bases. Hopefully it doesn't suck, but I'm not expecting it to affect pricing all that much either way. If it doesn't suck, then I doubt the average selling price of a GPU is going to change much. I could be wrong, but I don't see Intel building for a budget price point just to be competitive, and if it does suck then nobody cares.
Do not meddle in the affairs of archers, for they are subtle and you won't hear them coming.
 
DrCR
Gerbil Team Leader
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 7:18 am

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:07 pm

chuckula wrote:
Really.. I find that I'm most excited about stuff BEFORE I know what it is! After those pesky things called "facts" and "reality" interfere I usually go Krogoth.

This. I'm totally stoked over it right now, but I recognize that's going to change once we have something more than vaporware.
 
JustAnEngineer
Gold subscriber
Gerbil God
Posts: 18931
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Heart of Dixie

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:38 am

https://www.vortez.net/news_story/intel ... d_gpu.html
Renderings, puportedly of Intel Xe graphics cards.
i7-9700K, NH-D15, Z390M Pro4, 32 GiB, RX Vega64, Define Mini-C, SSR-850PX, C32HG70+U2407, RK-9000BR, MX518
 
chuckula
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2109
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:18 pm
Location: Probably where I don't belong.

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:14 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
https://www.vortez.net/news_story/intel_chinas_official_weibo_released_more_details_on_intel_xe_based_gpu.html
Renderings, puportedly of Intel Xe graphics cards.


Those renders have nice ray tracin--- wait RAY TRACING!!!!? WHO LET THOSE IDIOTS USE THE NGREEDIA CARDS TO RENDER THE FAKED-UP MODELS OF OUR PRODUCTS!
4770K @ 4.7 GHz; 32GB DDR3-2133; Officially RX-560... that's right AMD you shills!; 512GB 840 Pro (2x); Fractal Define XL-R2; NZXT Kraken-X60
--Many thanks to the TR Forum for advice in getting it built.
 
The Egg
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2909
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:46 pm

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:57 am

I’ve seen this thread in the Unread Posts for a while now, but I just figured it was related to some obscure server tech, and never bothered to click. Wasn’t until I remembered they were planning discrete cards, and found the name in a google search.

Xe.

I think Intel could have chosen any word, phrase, or combination of letters at random, and the name would have been of more interest to me (their target demographic). Out of near-infinite choices, they literally chose the worst one available. I’m not sure how that’s possible. They’d do better having a computer algorithm just pick randomized gibberish.

The entire marketing division needs to go. Just empty it completely. Having nothing is better.
 
Redocbew
Gold subscriber
Minister of Gerbil Affairs
Posts: 2151
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:44 am

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:43 am

chuckula wrote:
WHO LET THOSE IDIOTS USE THE NGREEDIA CARDS TO RENDER THE FAKED-UP MODELS OF OUR PRODUCTS!


It was the Knights who say Xe!
Do not meddle in the affairs of archers, for they are subtle and you won't hear them coming.
 
NTMBK
Gerbil XP
Posts: 371
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:21 am

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:04 am

The Egg wrote:
I’ve seen this thread in the Unread Posts for a while now, but I just figured it was related to some obscure server tech, and never bothered to click. Wasn’t until I remembered they were planning discrete cards, and found the name in a google search.

Xe.

I think Intel could have chosen any word, phrase, or combination of letters at random, and the name would have been of more interest to me (their target demographic). Out of near-infinite choices, they literally chose the worst one available. I’m not sure how that’s possible. They’d do better having a computer algorithm just pick randomized gibberish.

The entire marketing division needs to go. Just empty it completely. Having nothing is better.


But it's the chemical symbol for Xenon! Which clearly means a great deal to gamers, and is in no way easy to confuse with their Xeon CPUs! Or with the Xenon CPU in the XBox 360!
 
JustAnEngineer
Gold subscriber
Gerbil God
Posts: 18931
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2002 7:00 pm
Location: The Heart of Dixie

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:50 am

Here's the latest teaser from Intel's Raja Koduri:
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel ... 40562.html
i7-9700K, NH-D15, Z390M Pro4, 32 GiB, RX Vega64, Define Mini-C, SSR-850PX, C32HG70+U2407, RK-9000BR, MX518
 
dragontamer5788
Gerbil Elite
Posts: 507
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 8:39 am

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:31 pm

Hmm, if Intel is fully into SIMD-compute, it'd be nice to have a competitor.

AMD's ROCm is okay, but its software leaves much to be desired. AMD's hardware is great, it just is locked behind a weak software. Fortunately AMD has good relationships with Linux, but they still need a lot of work to get the ROCm environment competitive.

NVidia is expensive but it does work.

Intel doesn't need to be as fast as AMD or NVidia, they just need to have as good of a software environment as NVidia. PCIe slots are just fundamentally a more cohesive / faster technology than 10 Gbps ethernet or 40 Gbps Infiniband. So having a competitive PCIe coprocessor (hopefully like Xeon Phi, except actually good) would go a long way.
 
Krogoth
Gerbil Elder
Posts: 5812
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 3:20 pm
Location: somewhere on Core Prime
Contact:

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:34 pm

Xe = Vega done right minus the glue
Gigabyte Z390 AORUS-PRO Coffee Lake R 9700K, 2x8GiB of G.Skill DDR4-3600, Sapphire RX Vega 64, Corsair CX-750M V2 and Fractal Define R4 (W)
Ivy Bridge 3570K, 2x4GiB of G.Skill RIPSAW DDR3-1600, Gigabyte Z77X-UD3H, Corsair CX-750M V2, and PC-7B
 
Waco
Gold subscriber
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3161
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Los Alamos, NM

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:19 pm

Krogoth wrote:
Xe = Vega done right minus the glue

Your ability to extrapolate from incomplete information is astounding. :)

The consumer Xe is likely to have most of the compute stripped out (unless Intel is in a pinch getting silicon ready for Aurora, then perhaps it'll be a massive fat chip). It would definitely be good for them to not launch the series with a monstrously compute-heavy chip.
Desktop: X570 Gaming X | 3900X | 32 GB | Alphacool Eisblock Radeon VII | Heatkiller R3 | Samsung 4K 40" | 1 TB NVME + 2 TB SATA + LSI (128x8) RAID
NAS: 1950X | Designare EX | 32 GB ECC | 7x8 TB RAIDZ2 | 8x2 TB RAID10 | FreeNAS | ZFS | LSI SAS
 
K-L-Waster
Gerbil XP
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:10 pm
Location: Hmmm, I was *here* a second ago...

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:06 am

Waco wrote:
It would definitely be good for them to not launch the series with a monstrously compute-heavy chip.


... iiiffff they're going after the consumer / gamer market instead of the data center market.
Main System: i7-8700K, ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-E, 16 GB DDR4 3200 RAM, MSI GTX 1080 TI, 1 TB CRUCIAL MX500, Corsair 550D

HTPC: I5-4460, ASUS H97M-E, 8 GB RAM, GTX 970, CRUCIAL 256GB MX100, SILVERSTONE GD09B
 
Waco
Gold subscriber
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3161
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Los Alamos, NM

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:05 pm

K-L-Waster wrote:
Waco wrote:
It would definitely be good for them to not launch the series with a monstrously compute-heavy chip.


... iiiffff they're going after the consumer / gamer market instead of the data center market.

They're absolutely going after the data center market with at least one model of the Xe. I'm just hoping they don't make the mistake of making that the primary consumer version, because it'll be hotter, slower, and more expensive than it needs to be for gaming.
Desktop: X570 Gaming X | 3900X | 32 GB | Alphacool Eisblock Radeon VII | Heatkiller R3 | Samsung 4K 40" | 1 TB NVME + 2 TB SATA + LSI (128x8) RAID
NAS: 1950X | Designare EX | 32 GB ECC | 7x8 TB RAIDZ2 | 8x2 TB RAID10 | FreeNAS | ZFS | LSI SAS
 
K-L-Waster
Gerbil XP
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:10 pm
Location: Hmmm, I was *here* a second ago...

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:00 am

Waco wrote:
I'm just hoping they don't make the mistake of making that the primary consumer version, because it'll be hotter, slower, and more expensive than it needs to be for gaming.


But that's assuming they care.

I could easily see Intel treating the gaming market as an after thought -- Xe could turn into Intel's answer to the Radeon VII.
Main System: i7-8700K, ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-E, 16 GB DDR4 3200 RAM, MSI GTX 1080 TI, 1 TB CRUCIAL MX500, Corsair 550D

HTPC: I5-4460, ASUS H97M-E, 8 GB RAM, GTX 970, CRUCIAL 256GB MX100, SILVERSTONE GD09B
 
Krogoth
Gerbil Elder
Posts: 5812
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 3:20 pm
Location: somewhere on Core Prime
Contact:

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:57 am

Intel is only going after datacenter and APUs on the mainstream-side. I would be genuinely be surprised if they made a serious attempt at making a discrete gaming SKU that isn't meant to promote a new standard (FYI, i740 was designed to promote adoption of AGP).
Gigabyte Z390 AORUS-PRO Coffee Lake R 9700K, 2x8GiB of G.Skill DDR4-3600, Sapphire RX Vega 64, Corsair CX-750M V2 and Fractal Define R4 (W)
Ivy Bridge 3570K, 2x4GiB of G.Skill RIPSAW DDR3-1600, Gigabyte Z77X-UD3H, Corsair CX-750M V2, and PC-7B
 
Waco
Gold subscriber
Grand Gerbil Poohbah
Posts: 3161
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 4:14 pm
Location: Los Alamos, NM

Re: Who else is excited about Intel's Xe?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:51 am

They already stated they're releasing discrete GPUs. It was literally the first announcement they made about the Xe publicly.
Desktop: X570 Gaming X | 3900X | 32 GB | Alphacool Eisblock Radeon VII | Heatkiller R3 | Samsung 4K 40" | 1 TB NVME + 2 TB SATA + LSI (128x8) RAID
NAS: 1950X | Designare EX | 32 GB ECC | 7x8 TB RAIDZ2 | 8x2 TB RAID10 | FreeNAS | ZFS | LSI SAS

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests
GZIP: On