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Philldoe
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:40 am

NTMBK wrote:
Philldoe wrote:
None of the news says intel is completely ditching it's own IGP. Some of the low end SKUs and those with the Iris silicon are said to stay around, but the Radeon parts are for CPU's used in certain products. You sound like you are trying your damnedest to go into denial about AMD and Intel working together on something.

And you sound like you're trying your damnedest to believe that they are working together on something :) The only evidence I've seen is rumour-mongering by Kyle from Hard|OCP. All other "news" about it has been other sites reporting on his rumours. I just don't think it's very plausible. 

However, I would be happy to be proven wrong- I think an Intel CPU and integrated AMD GPU would make for a very cool product. Great for gaming laptops and compact Steambox gaming PCs. 


It's a lot more than plausible. If you bothered to read all of the source material you would get that.
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:46 am

Philldoe wrote:

It's a lot more than plausible. If you bothered to read all of the source material you would get that.


What source material is this that you speak of?
The only source material I've ever seen is one rumor from HardOCP and then a wall-o-text blog that has literally zero source material other than references back to the original rumor.

Let's assume that Intel actually takes an IP license from AMD for graphics, which appears to be the potentially correct (although not guaranteed) kernel of truth underneath the original rumor.

OK, so Intel has an IP license from AMD: So what. They've had an IP license from Nvidia going way way back and I ain't seeing any Kepler/Maxwell/Pascal IGPs floating around in Intel parts.

There is a major MAJOR leap that's just rampant speculation at this point with basically no factual foundation.
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:47 am

Philldoe wrote:
NTMBK wrote:
Philldoe wrote:
None of the news says intel is completely ditching it's own IGP. Some of the low end SKUs and those with the Iris silicon are said to stay around, but the Radeon parts are for CPU's used in certain products. You sound like you are trying your damnedest to go into denial about AMD and Intel working together on something.

And you sound like you're trying your damnedest to believe that they are working together on something :) The only evidence I've seen is rumour-mongering by Kyle from Hard|OCP. All other "news" about it has been other sites reporting on his rumours. I just don't think it's very plausible. 

However, I would be happy to be proven wrong- I think an Intel CPU and integrated AMD GPU would make for a very cool product. Great for gaming laptops and compact Steambox gaming PCs. 


It's a lot more than plausible. If you bothered to read all of the source material you would get that.

I have already read it all, and don't appreciate your repeated accusation that I haven't. I just don't agree with your assessment of it. 
 
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:10 am

NoOne ButMe wrote:
the wrote:
Back in the day when AMD was looking to purchase a GPU company, they reportedly came close to buying nVidia instead of ATI. One of the sticking points was that Jen-Hsung wanted a seat on AMD's board. That would have been an interesting alternate reality had that deal gone through but it was a big enough sticking point to can the entire deal.

as I understand it, Jen-Hsung wanted to be CEO of the company if bought/merged.

For a seat on board I imagine AMD would have taken it.


I think Jen-Hsung was indeed gunning for the CEO position initially but I do think he was wanting that initially. Corporate politics et al.

NoOne ButMe wrote:
TBH, I dislike him greatly, but Jen-Hsung would have forced CPU and GPU team together faster unlike what did happen. where internal debate/fighting caused whole APU stack to be delayed over a year.


I was indifferent about Jen-Hsun personally until I watched the GTX 1080 launch stream (relevant part here). That just didn't sit well with me.

Though I follow your idea that Jen-Hsung would have would have pushed a combined SoC sooner. Reportedly the Denver architecture with this code morphing engine was originally conceived to handle x86 instructions (a la Transmeta) but nVidia lost hte licensing war to do it.
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Philldoe
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:11 am

Let's play Connect the Dots. Intel wants to move into cloud based AI and learning software. AMD has the Radeon Instinct that is built for machine learning. Intel also has an IP deal with nvidia at a cost of $200m a year so nVidia does not sue them. And Intel can get a better deal with AMD and drop the deal with nvidia... Ah screw it I'll just quote the end of the source.

1) The largest cloud providers greatly prefer OPEN SOURCE PLATFORMS. Therefore, over the longer term, Cloud providers will favor AMD over Nvidia.

2) Intel needs to incorporate GPUs into its Cloud Server products. It makes more sense to work with AMD's open source GPU platform than Nvidia's proprietary one.

3) Intel needs to participate in new growing markets such as AI, VR, AR, MR, Autonomous Driving, etc. which require Heterogeneous Computing. AMD has a well developed open source Heterogeneous system architecture available, which Nvidia does not.

4) Intel needs access to recent and future GPU patents or they will face another law suit from Nvidia

5) I do NOT think it makes sense for AMD to share its GPU secrets (algorithms, etc.) with Intel for the main businesses of PCs and Servers.

6) But, I do think it makes sense for Intel to license AMD's GPU patents (they're public & NOT secret) so Intel will have protection against a Nvidia lawsuit after their 6 year licensing deal expires in March 2017.

7) I do think there is some potential for AMD to team up with Intel and share some of its GPU IP, but ONLY for "what is the next on mobile".

8) AMD will benefit from Intel backing its GPU platform, and the licensing revenues they will receive.

9) BOTH AMD & Intel would benefit, IF Intel were to buy the same GPUs that AMD is selling to PC OEMS, and package them into a multi-chip module (MCM)


Damn, that's some pretty plain more than plausible logic right there. See isn't Connect the dots a fun game kids? I was in the "lol doubt it" camp back when Kyle posted his original article in May 2016, but the past few months have shown RTG being pretty friendly toward intel... even going so far as to give away fully built systems with intel CPU's, doing Demos with Intel CPU's... a few other things as well, but frankly I'm tired of talking about it. Im just going to bookmark this thread and come back in a few months when the deal is announced and rub it everyones face like a child.
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:17 am

Phildoe wrote:
Damn, that's some pretty plain more than plausible logic right there.


But it only pertainins to a possible IP licensing deal, in regards to patents.

That's an altogether different sort of endeavor (if you can even call it that) than "AMD and Intel working together on something."

Phildoe wrote:
But the past few months have shown RTG being pretty friendly toward intel... even going so far as to give away fully built systems with intel CPU's, doing Demos with Intel CPU's...


Uh....

Because when you are trying to sell your GPUs, you don't combine with them your CPUs which are subpar.

This is not even remotely what you are presenting it as.
 
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:24 am

The fact that Intel paid for AMD patents is quite clear. I am not at all certain they are also going to build a common product.

My take on this, even though I'm not claiming it's true or even remotely probable, is that an Apple-exclusive APU combining the best Intel CPU core with the best AMD GPU would make for a very nice product that would be hard to beat. Apple gets their "own" CPU and doesn't have to spend $$$ to develop an in-house alternative.

I don't see this going very far in the datacenter because scalable and modular solutions (Tesla, Radeon Instinct etc) are probably a better fit than any sort of APU, although it might be theoretically possible to stick a huge GPU with HBM and a CPU on the same package.
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:24 am

RTG being pretty friendly toward intel... even going so far as to give away fully built systems with intel CPU's, doing Demos with Intel CPU's...


Yeah, well just a few months ago at the New Horizon's event AMD was very friendly towards Nvidia... even going so far as to do demos using a Pascal Titan X to show off just how great RyZen is compared to Intel's crappy CPUs!

Obviously this means AMD will soon incorporate Nvidia GPUs into RyZen. 

Or not.

As for why AMD used Intel's CPUs, the real-world answer is much less interesting: The Rx 480, which is what was being demoed, loves it some high-end CPU power to actually perform at full-tilt and there are numerous examples of the Rx 480 "beating" a GTX-1060 when paired with a nice high-end Intel CPU where the exact same GPUs come out with the opposite results when popped into something like an FX-8350 system.  When AMD was putting on the Rx 480 dog-n-pony show its sole objective was to make the Rx 480 look good, and if that required using an Intel system, so be it.
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:31 am

Philldoe wrote:
Let's play Connect the Dots. Intel wants to move into cloud based AI and learning software. AMD has the Radeon Instinct that is built for machine learning. Intel also has an IP deal with nvidia at a cost of $200m a year so nVidia does not sue them. And Intel can get a better deal with AMD and drop the deal with nvidia... Ah screw it I'll just quote the end of the source.

1) The largest cloud providers greatly prefer OPEN SOURCE PLATFORMS. Therefore, over the longer term, Cloud providers will favor AMD over Nvidia.

2) Intel needs to incorporate GPUs into its Cloud Server products. It makes more sense to work with AMD's open source GPU platform than Nvidia's proprietary one.

3) Intel needs to participate in new growing markets such as AI, VR, AR, MR, Autonomous Driving, etc. which require Heterogeneous Computing. AMD has a well developed open source Heterogeneous system architecture available, which Nvidia does not.

4) Intel needs access to recent and future GPU patents or they will face another law suit from Nvidia

5) I do NOT think it makes sense for AMD to share its GPU secrets (algorithms, etc.) with Intel for the main businesses of PCs and Servers.

6) But, I do think it makes sense for Intel to license AMD's GPU patents (they're public & NOT secret) so Intel will have protection against a Nvidia lawsuit after their 6 year licensing deal expires in March 2017.

7) I do think there is some potential for AMD to team up with Intel and share some of its GPU IP, but ONLY for "what is the next on mobile".

8) AMD will benefit from Intel backing its GPU platform, and the licensing revenues they will receive.

9) BOTH AMD & Intel would benefit, IF Intel were to buy the same GPUs that AMD is selling to PC OEMS, and package them into a multi-chip module (MCM)


Damn, that's some pretty plain more than plausible logic right there. See isn't Connect the dots a fun game kids? I was in the "lol doubt it" camp back when Kyle posted his original article in May 2016, but the past few months have shown RTG being pretty friendly toward intel... even going so far as to give away fully built systems with intel CPU's, doing Demos with Intel CPU's... a few other things as well, but frankly I'm tired of talking about it. Im just going to bookmark this thread and come back in a few months when the deal is announced and rub it everyones face like a child.

I read it already, you don't need to copy paste it again. And you definitely don't need to be condescending about it. Here's my counter logic:
-Intel spent $350M to buy a company which was developing machine learning hardware (Nervana)
-Intel is bringing out it's own machine learning hardware this year based on Nervana tech, and is integrating it with Xeon CPUs next year: http://wccftech.com/intel-lake-crest-chip-detailed-32-gb-hbm2-1-tb/ 
-Intel already manufacturer Knight's Landing CPUs to compete with GPUs in HPC, and are bringing out Knight's Mill (a CPU specialised for deep learning) 
-Even if Intel did produce a hybrid deep learning device with AMD, AMD can cut them out in the next generation and replace them with AMD CPU cores- this would only be a long term gain for AMD, not for Intel


They don't need to go with AMD to build up a deep learning business, they are already trying two different approaches themselves and  spending millions and millions of dollars in the process. Blowing up all of that to make a short term deal with AMD doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

I can see the proposed value in an AMD GPU + Intel CPU chip to go in e.g. Apple laptops, though I still doubt it will happen. Intel are indeed paying AMD license fees for patents, just like they have paid NVidia for years. But a HPC teamup? It just doesn't line up strategically with anything else that Intel has been doing. 
Last edited by NTMBK on Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:39 am

Philldoe wrote:
Let's play Connect the Dots. Intel wants to move into cloud based AI and learning software. AMD has the Radeon Instinct that is built for machine learning. Intel also has an IP deal with nvidia at a cost of $200m a year so nVidia does not sue them. And Intel can get a better deal with AMD and drop the deal with nvidia... Ah screw it I'll just quote the end of the source.

1) The largest cloud providers greatly prefer OPEN SOURCE PLATFORMS. Therefore, over the longer term, Cloud providers will favor AMD over Nvidia.

2) Intel needs to incorporate GPUs into its Cloud Server products. It makes more sense to work with AMD's open source GPU platform than Nvidia's proprietary one.

3) Intel needs to participate in new growing markets such as AI, VR, AR, MR, Autonomous Driving, etc. which require Heterogeneous Computing. AMD has a well developed open source Heterogeneous system architecture available, which Nvidia does not.

4) Intel needs access to recent and future GPU patents or they will face another law suit from Nvidia

5) I do NOT think it makes sense for AMD to share its GPU secrets (algorithms, etc.) with Intel for the main businesses of PCs and Servers.

6) But, I do think it makes sense for Intel to license AMD's GPU patents (they're public & NOT secret) so Intel will have protection against a Nvidia lawsuit after their 6 year licensing deal expires in March 2017.

7) I do think there is some potential for AMD to team up with Intel and share some of its GPU IP, but ONLY for "what is the next on mobile".

8) AMD will benefit from Intel backing its GPU platform, and the licensing revenues they will receive.

9) BOTH AMD & Intel would benefit, IF Intel were to buy the same GPUs that AMD is selling to PC OEMS, and package them into a multi-chip module (MCM)


Damn, that's some pretty plain more than plausible logic right there. See isn't Connect the dots a fun game kids? I was in the "lol doubt it" camp back when Kyle posted his original article in May 2016, but the past few months have shown RTG being pretty friendly toward intel... even going so far as to give away fully built systems with intel CPU's, doing Demos with Intel CPU's... a few other things as well, but frankly I'm tired of talking about it. Im just going to bookmark this thread and come back in a few months when the deal is announced and rub it everyones face like a child.


This wholly ignores the acquisition of Nervana and the coming Knights Crest and Crest Lake products. Intel has some massive deep learning plans on the horizon and will likely blend that with there recent acquisition of Altera. I'm expecting a mix of large Core based Xeons, Xeon Phi, Omnipath interconnect, FPGA and Nervana tech all (though not all at once) making an appearance in a MCM for a common socket. Pretty much Intel is going full Lego in the server space.

4, 5,and 6 on that list makes sense as it is far too easy to trip over some one else's patents in this sector. Cheaper to cross license than go to court. The rest is a bit of wishful thinking which ignores recent acquisition and new products placed on their roadmap.

2 also makes sense but Intel doesn't need AMD hardware to do it. They can adopt the platform with existing/future products by providing the appropriate software shim.

The one feasible possibility but not something I'd put much weight into is a MCM with an AMD GPU to keep Apple happy. Apple's big enough and pays both Intel and AMD enough to do this. This makes sense for the consumer space as it'd only eat away at Intel's Gen architecture and not threaten something more lucrative.
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:42 am

chuckula wrote:
When AMD was putting on the Rx 480 dog-n-pony show its sole objective was to make the Rx 480 look good, and if that required using an Intel system, so be it.


It's not just that. In fact, the comment "But the past few months have shown..." is just really silly.

AMD has been doing this for years, and the reason isn't any particular "dog-n-pony" show for any particular presentation, but just that using bulldozer in general means the GPU would potentially look worse than it could have otherwise.

So they didn't do that. They haven't done that multiple times in the past.

It's not an indication of anything like what is being suggested...
 
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:17 pm

Waco wrote:
I didn't mean to imply [the drivers] don't suck now - I meant they would continue to suck.  :lol:


Historically (like, 10 years ago) I'd have agreed with you.

I'm dealing with a lot of AMD, Nvidia and Intel drivers at work, and also have all three vendors at home. For a significant time now, especially when it comes to display settings (resolution, scaling, colour format, bit-depth, HDMI range, refresh, HDCP, Audio capabilities etc) Nvidia are right at the bottom of the pile right now. Intel aren't much better, but they're certainly not making mistakes as often as Nvidia, even if they're not correcting the mistakes either. AMD's massive investment into their driver team seems to have paid off. The interface is modern and continually updated to work with new features, the display management is second only to dedicated 3rd party tools like DisplayFusion and the bugs do seem to eventually get fixed (and more importantly, they stay fixed).

I'm not anti-Nvidia or Intel, I just get annoyed when the FUD about AMD drivers gets regurgitated. Whether you like AMD or not, their drivers are the example that your vendor of choice should be aiming to surpass. I'd also like Nvidia Pascal performance at Intel 14nm efficiency with AMD driver quality, but the Unicorn delivery service seems to have lost my order ;)
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:42 pm

Wish AMD would give the Linux drivers a little of that love too.
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:57 pm

just brew it! wrote:
Wish AMD would give the Linux drivers a little of that love too.

At least AMD is actively developing Linux drivers in a semi-serious way these days. For a long time they didn't even do that.  They still have a long way to go, but at least things are moving in the right direction.
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:19 pm

chuckula wrote:
so Intel has an IP license from AMD: So what. They've had an IP license from Nvidia going way way back and I ain't seeing any Kepler/Maxwell/Pascal IGPs floating around in Intel parts.

gee. Ever think Intel's licensing agreement had nothing to do with architectural access?

think of what it would take to make a truly iGPU, the knowledge that needs to be shared, and over what timeframes. Why would Intel do this with anyone?

Also consider we know AMD has smaller parts on similar density process (SS LPP versus GF LPP) that at lower power levels preform similarly.

And AMD is clearly willing to do a "custom" chip. Nvidia might be. Still not sure if the Switch actually modifies the X1 in ways besides the clockspeed.



And, Intel benefits from iGPU on package being from AMD/Nvidia. Even if pref/watt, area and drivers don't change compared to GenX Intel iGPU.
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:29 pm

NoOne ButMe wrote:
gee. Ever think Intel's licensing agreement had nothing to do with architectural access?


Ever think that your posts have nothing to do with making sense?
 
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:37 pm

the wrote:
I was indifferent about Jen-Hsun personally until I watched the GTX 1080 launch stream (relevant part here). That just didn't sit well with me.

I though it was kind of neat to see Jen-Hsun. Unrehearsed and what I see as joking around a bit despite problems. But I can see how it could be something giving a negative opinion of him


@Glorious, Intel licensed patents from Nvidia. Not architectures. They would need a new or amended license for architectures.
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:45 pm

NoOne ButMe wrote:
Glorious, Intel licensed patents from Nvidia. Not architectures. They would need a new or amended license for architectures.


Yeah. Duh. That was precisely chuckula's point.

It was also mine, as I explicitly said that.

In fact, a lot of people said it.

NTMBK wrote:
Intel are indeed paying AMD license fees for patents, just like they have paid NVidia for years.


ptsant wrote:
The fact that Intel paid for AMD patents is quite clear. I am not at all certain they are also going to build a common product.


But yet you said "gee. Ever think..." :roll:

Yes. We did.

We also read.

Maybe you should give both of those concepts a try sometime.
 
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:47 pm

NoOne ButMe wrote:
the wrote:
I was indifferent about Jen-Hsun personally until I watched the GTX 1080 launch stream (relevant part here). That just didn't sit well with me.

I though it was kind of neat to see Jen-Hsun. Unrehearsed and what I see as joking around a bit despite problems. But I can see how it could be something giving a negative opinion of him


@Glorious, Intel licensed patents from Nvidia. Not architectures. They would need a new or amended license for architectures.

Ha. I hadn't seen that clip before either, but that strikes me as a real person improvising and joking with one of his coworkers while frustrated during a live presentation.

I know I always get a bit flustered when I'm trying to present in front of people when I'm not in control of the slides / display. Live demos are even worse.

I think I like Jen-Hsun more than before after watching this.
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue May 16, 2017 4:16 pm

https://www.thestreet.com/story/14137922/1/amd-stock-climbs-on-intel-licensing-agreement.html

God it feels so good to be right. I will now laugh like a 12 year old child.
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue May 16, 2017 4:42 pm

Philldoe wrote:
https://www.thestreet.com/story/14137922/1/amd-stock-climbs-on-intel-licensing-agreement.html

God it feels so good to be right. I will now laugh like a 12 year old child.

You're a regular Nostradamus! :P

It's an interesting world we live in.
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue May 16, 2017 6:45 pm

FreeSync for everyone!
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue May 16, 2017 6:56 pm

phildoe wrote:
God it feels so good to be right. I will now laugh like a 12 year old child.


Dude, calm down. That article only reinforces what everyone was telling you about how this was merely about patents:

TheStreet wrote:
Intel was in need of a GPU license after its previous agreement with chipmaker Nvidia (NVDA) ended on March 17.


1) That agreement was a patent agreement: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data ... 34/d8k.htm

SEC 8-K wrote:
Under the patent cross license agreement, Intel has granted to NVIDIA and its qualified subsidiaries, and NVIDIA has granted to Intel and Intel’s qualified subsidiaries, a non-exclusive, non-transferable, worldwide license, without the right to sublicense to all patents that are either owned or controlled by the parties at any time that have a first filing date on or before March 31, 2017,


2) It was not a license to make Nvidia GPUs or incorporate their specific designs into Intel-branded products. You know, because, uh, Intel obviously didn't?

So, if your cite is correct and this "GPU license" replaces the previous agreement with Nvidia, that's actually evidence against all your suppositions about product designs and so forth, *not* vindication.
 
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue May 16, 2017 7:01 pm

Glorious wrote:
phildoe wrote:
God it feels so good to be right. I will now laugh like a 12 year old child.


Dude, calm down. That article only reinforces what everyone was telling you about how this was merely about patents:



Glorious is right. Intel doesn't want to get sued for making its own IGPs. They had a prior license from Nvidia that kept Nvidia at bay and was a deterrent against AMD trying anything. Now they've switched to paying money to AMD to prevent AMD from suing directly and as a deterrent against Nvidia. It's a cold-war balance of power play, but if Nvidia GPUs aren't in Intel parts after all these years of the old license, don't expect AMD GPUs jumping into Intel parts anytime soon.
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue May 16, 2017 7:08 pm

I'm still hopeful Intel might decide to make HSA work where AMD has failed...
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Tue May 16, 2017 7:22 pm

Waco wrote:
I'm still hopeful Intel might decide to make HSA work where AMD has failed...


this was my thought too. Along with "GSync is probably dead."
 
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Wed May 17, 2017 10:50 am

chuckula wrote:
It's a cold-war balance of power play, but if Nvidia GPUs aren't in Intel parts after all these years of the old license, don't expect AMD GPUs jumping into Intel parts anytime soon.


I'm still surprised that Intel hasn't bought NVIDIA yet. I'm not sure what Intel is thinking here, it would be a good fit for them.
 
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Wed May 17, 2017 11:16 am

Jen Hsun Huang not gonna sell unless he can run Intel as well.
 
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Wed May 17, 2017 11:49 am

jihadjoe wrote:
Jen Hsun Huang not gonna sell unless he can run Intel as well.


That's actually not a bad idea, although I imagine Intel wouldn't think so. In any case, I assumed that the takeover would be hostile.
 
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Re: Intel Licensing AMD GPU Tech

Wed May 17, 2017 12:04 pm

jihadjoe wrote:
Jen Hsun Huang not gonna sell unless he can run Intel as well.


It might not hurt Intel to have somebody with a little bit of charisma running things. Their last few CEOs have been able to make money, but they never get anybody excited.
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