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infinice
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Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:42 am

Apologies in advance if i'm posting in wrong place, but i'm a noob here...
And i hope this doesn't seem like a stupid question, but all discussion on topic is by gamers, which i am not.
So i must ask: how much [10%?, 50%??] better would 120Hz or 144Hz be over 60Hz, for general computing, and for videos?
Since this question is *not* clearly answered elsewhere, you'll be doing non-gamers everywhere a big favor by clearing it up here.
Cheers-
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:58 am

infinice wrote:
So i must ask: how much [10%?, 50%??] better would 120Hz or 144Hz be over 60Hz, for general computing, and for videos?


I doubt it would make any difference.
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:01 am

I'm going to say 0% better.

If you're not a gamer then you're better off spending extra monitor money on things like IPS, colour gamut, adjustable stand, size etc depending on what you're doing.
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:13 am

Aye, if you're not gaming, high refresh rates are pretty much irrelevant.
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:16 am

The non-gaming benefit of high refresh and/or variable refresh displays is not zero, but it is minimal. You would primarily see the benefits on video, and within that realm, you'd see the most benefit on content that isn't 30 FPS (or some multiple of it). Basically, there is some mathy weirdness of displaying 24 FPS on 60 Hz because there is a remainder (some frames get displayed more than others). By increasing the refresh rate, you get more even exposure. With an adaptive refresh rate, you can match the source content and eliminate the remainder entirely.

There might also be a fringe benefit of quicker refresh rates since frames will transition more quickly, but again, this benefit is relatively low. Gamers get the most benefit because the source content--the game--varies over time. The quick response time helps to get information to the user as fast as possible.
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:19 am

infinice wrote:
Apologies in advance if i'm posting in wrong place, but i'm a noob here...
And i hope this doesn't seem like a stupid question, but all discussion on topic is by gamers, which i am not.
So i must ask: how much [10%?, 50%??] better would 120Hz or 144Hz be over 60Hz, for general computing, and for videos?
Since this question is *not* clearly answered elsewhere, you'll be doing non-gamers everywhere a big favor by clearing it up here.
Cheers-
infinice.

What did the sadist do to the masochist? Nothing.

The answer lies in how it handles motion blur.
Most modern TVs are 120Hz refresh and the modern processing the motion blur is almost unnoticeable.
The blur gets more annoying the closer you sit to the display.

But I have a feeling your question may be more FPS Frames per second rather than refresh rate.
 
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:20 am

Even on the desktop 144 Hz is more pleasant than 60, but it's not relevant enough to pay a premium for. The productivity sweet spot right now appears to be 3440x1440 on a 34" or 35" panel.
 
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:21 am

Arvald wrote:
infinice wrote:
Apologies in advance if i'm posting in wrong place, but i'm a noob here...
And i hope this doesn't seem like a stupid question, but all discussion on topic is by gamers, which i am not.
So i must ask: how much [10%?, 50%??] better would 120Hz or 144Hz be over 60Hz, for general computing, and for videos?
Since this question is *not* clearly answered elsewhere, you'll be doing non-gamers everywhere a big favor by clearing it up here.
Cheers-
infinice.

What did the sadist do to the masochist? Nothing.

The answer lies in how it handles motion blur.
Most modern TVs are 120Hz refresh and the modern processing the motion blur is almost unnoticeable.
The blur gets more annoying the closer you sit to the display.

But I have a feeling your question may be more FPS Frames per second rather than refresh rate.

Television "120Hz" is a poor fit to computing, as your display will often present material that is not predictable. If your TV creates "120Hz" from 60Hz content by guessing the next frame, you're more likely to be frustrated than impressed.
 
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:31 am

superjawes wrote:
Basically, there is some mathy weirdness of displaying 24 FPS on 60 Hz because there is a remainder (some frames get displayed more than others).


IIRC, it goes something like doubling and tripling every other frame.

[Frame1] [Frame1] [Frame2] [Frame2] [Frame2] [Frame3] [Frame3] [Frame4] [Frame4] [Frame4] [Frame5] [Frame5] [Frame6] [Frame6] [Frame6]

24/2 * 2 = 24, 24/2 * 3 = 36, 24+36 = 60.
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:00 am

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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:04 am

superjawes wrote:
The non-gaming benefit of high refresh and/or variable refresh displays is not zero, but it is minimal. You would primarily see the benefits on video, and within that realm, you'd see the most benefit on content that isn't 30 FPS (or some multiple of it). Basically, there is some mathy weirdness of displaying 24 FPS on 60 Hz because there is a remainder (some frames get displayed more than others). By increasing the refresh rate, you get more even exposure. With an adaptive refresh rate, you can match the source content and eliminate the remainder entirely.

There might also be a fringe benefit of quicker refresh rates since frames will transition more quickly, but again, this benefit is relatively low. Gamers get the most benefit because the source content--the game--varies over time. The quick response time helps to get information to the user as fast as possible.

This. He may also notice slightly smoother mouse tracking and movement of screen objects (dragging windows around, etc), but if you've never seen 120hz+, you won't know any better.
 
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:05 am

infinice wrote:
Apologies in advance if i'm posting in wrong place, but i'm a noob here...
And i hope this doesn't seem like a stupid question, but all discussion on topic is by gamers, which i am not.
So i must ask: how much [10%?, 50%??] better would 120Hz or 144Hz be over 60Hz, for general computing, and for videos?
Since this question is *not* clearly answered elsewhere, you'll be doing non-gamers everywhere a big favor by clearing it up here.
Cheers-
infinice.

What did the sadist do to the masochist? Nothing.


For videos? A lot, depending on how sensitive you are to jitter. A 60 Hz display can't display 23.97 fps content cleanly. At 120 Hz, though, there is minimal jitter (119.88 fps with a straight 5:1 ratio), and similarly at 144 Hz (143.86 fps w a 6:1 ratio). I run my primary display at 120 Hz so it works cleanly with 24p, 30p and 60p video, and the difference from my secondary display at 60 Hz is noticeable to me. I could also use G-Sync to get a perfect fps match by using the DirectX video renderer instead of VMR in MPC-HC, but I don't because it disables the overlay function, 120 fixed is close enough for me. I have not tested w Freesync but imagine it's broadly similar in fullscreen.

Even on the desktop, I notice the difference between my 120 Hz and 60 Hz display in mouse cursor movement and scrolling. Is it worth the QoL gains to navigate Excel at 120 Hz? I don't think so, but the gains in playing video are worth it to me.
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:19 am

MileageMayVary wrote:
IIRC, it goes something like doubling and tripling every other frame.

[Frame1] [Frame1] [Frame2] [Frame2] [Frame2] [Frame3] [Frame3] [Frame4] [Frame4] [Frame4] [Frame5] [Frame5] [Frame6] [Frame6] [Frame6]

24/2 * 2 = 24, 24/2 * 3 = 36, 24+36 = 60.
There we go. So using a 120 Hz display would be better here because you just display each frame for 5 cycles each (24 * 5 = 120). That way, you don't get any "speed" change between frames. At 60 Hz, half the frames get 33% extra exposure, creating a weird time change. Again, it is small, but it is there. Personally, I like the idea of variable refresh rates because you can match any content without just going to a ludicrously high number (tangent: are companies moving towards this adoption for TV and home video?).

Oh, and you can also fix the 24 FPS to 60 Hz problem by doing interpolation, but that might create a different, undesirable effect.
On second thought, let's not go to TechReport. Tis a silly place.
 
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:27 am

superjawes wrote:
So using a 120 Hz display would be better here because you just display each frame for 5 cycles each (24 * 5 = 120).


Who wants to bet that instead of smoothing to 5 exposures they just double to 4 and 6 exposures?
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infinice
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:53 am

Whew! After the first few replies i thought i had my answer; but after the next dozen i was sandbagged into confusion.
I notice two tendencies on forums: 1] getting carried away and/or tunnel-vision'ing [links to articles on neurophysiology?!], and, 2] your mama! male competitiveness. [At least that sleeping dog is still sleeping on this thread.]
A fair conclusion, save for one dissenting voice on video, is that 120Hz gains are minimal for non-gamers. That's ok with me because i haven't upgraded yet, never expected much, and probably won't pay a premium. Still, there's a difference between slight gain and no gain.
I should've mentioned: i'm ogling a BenQ BL3200PT. [Anybody know when it'll be bumped up to 120 or 144Hz?]. Assuming they don't make it curved [the gimmick de jour of display makers!] it'll probably be priced about present model.
Has anybody seen a [non-gamers] poll on 60 vs 120?
Thanks to everybody for responding.
infinice
 
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:59 am

If it's for fullscreen video you can just change the refresh rate to not deal with pulldown/pullup problems.
MPC-HC can even do that automatically depending on the source content. It's how I have my HTPC configured.

Image
My settings for a desktop display I use for video. I have another instance of MPC-HC with a different set of refresh rates for a projector which is called by Kodi.

No variable-refresh necessary since video is fixed frame rate anyway.
 
infinice
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:05 pm

my display maxes out at 85Hz and i've already experimented with using it at 60Hz. There's only a tiny [probably imaginary] difference.
 
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:21 pm

MileageMayVary wrote:
superjawes wrote:
So using a 120 Hz display would be better here because you just display each frame for 5 cycles each (24 * 5 = 120).


Who wants to bet that instead of smoothing to 5 exposures they just double to 4 and 6 exposures?

None of my video players have trouble with it at 72 Hz (perfect for movies + games, not so much for TV watching), so I'd bet if you're actually feeding a 120 Hz signal, it'll be fine.
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:25 am

infinice wrote:
Whew! After the first few replies i thought i had my answer; but after the next dozen i was sandbagged into confusion.
I notice two tendencies on forums: 1] getting carried away and/or tunnel-vision'ing [links to articles on neurophysiology?!], and, 2] your mama! male competitiveness. [At least that sleeping dog is still sleeping on this thread.]

Not sure what you're reading, but the opinion here seems to be fairly unanimous that the difference is minimal at best. Some folks choose to go into detail on their responses (and post references), and I'm not sure why you'd take issue with that. Congrats on insulting the forum on only your 2nd post though.
 
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:07 pm

I could mmmmaaaaybe see a benefit for 3D modelling, where pro apps are basically game engines, but even there, I've never actually heard of a studio equipping artists with >60 Hz screens.

It'd certainly be interesting to try tumbling some 3D models around at 60 and 120 to see if the higher rate makes it feel more "solid".

For pro audio, too, it might be nice to have your oscilloscope and VU meters updating at better than 60 FPS.

But that's another niche use case.

For the kinds of things most people use computers for, the only thing you're likely to notice is less strobing when you move the mouse pointer around.
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:23 pm

If you're not gaming, 60Hz is fine.

Spend your money on image quality - so deep blacks, good colour gamut and good uniformity.

I was after a WQHD monitor with a VA panel for the amazeballs contrast ratio and deep blacks, whilst keeping to around 100ppi so that pixels weren't wasted; I hate dpi-scaling in Windows and a 27" 4K screen is just a squint-fest for me. WQHD at 32" is essentially the same ppi as a 24" 1080p screen which I find comfortable to use. There are three main options that match the 32"/WQHD/VA criteria and of the Benq, Samsung and Acer choice I ended up getting a Samsung S32D850T because it tested as the lowest input lag and I preferred the minimalist bezel styling.

I only wish more of the monitor industry would focus on image quality rather than inflating refresh rates and pixel pitch. I can't tell the difference between 120Hz and 240Hz, and I sure as hell can't read text at native resolution on most of the 4K monitors on the market at the moment.
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:29 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
I only wish more of the monitor industry would focus on image quality rather than inflating refresh rates and pixel pitch. I can't tell the difference between 120Hz and 240Hz, and I sure as hell can't read text at native resolution on most of the 4K monitors on the market at the moment.

Isn't that what that quantum dot crap is supposed to be about? I guess I haven't paid too much attention, especially to 'professional' displays and whatnot.
And now I'm no longer primarily a PC gamer. *shrug*
 
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:03 am

MileageMayVary wrote:
superjawes wrote:
So using a 120 Hz display would be better here because you just display each frame for 5 cycles each (24 * 5 = 120).


Who wants to bet that instead of smoothing to 5 exposures they just double to 4 and 6 exposures?



Easily tested.

Here is a 23.976 fps video being played back on my 120 Hz display:

Image

From what I've read, the green line represents the frame draw call and the red line the frame draw action. They are fairly well behaved at 120 Hz, as is to be expected.

Here is the same file being played back on my 60 Hz display:

Image

The lines see-saw back and forth as the frame is being refreshed at the closest v-sync. This isn't a problem in static scenes, but can cause judder in panning scenes. It's just that we've grown so used to it on 60 Hz TVs and monitors that we don't realize what we've been missing out on.

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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:24 am

High refresh rate monitors are one of the biggest changes you can make to your gaming experience IMO, For gaming it makes the whole experience feel much more responsive and immersive, and can even give you a competitive advantage. However if you aren't interested in gaming the benefits are pretty limited. You can see the difference in smoothness even on the desktop but it doesn't really matter. Better black levels/colors/etc would be a lot more beneficial for productivity. More pixels too, whether it's a higher resolution monitor or multiple monitors

What people are mentioning about the video framerate and how it relates to refresh rates is true, but the difference is pretty small in my experience and not necessarily worth sacrificing colors/black levels/etc for. The framerate on most movies and TV shows is terrible in the first place, so even if you have it perfectly synced up with the monitor it's still not going to look great in scenes with lots of action/movement/panning. It will just be consistently bad, instead of slightly less consistently bad. :P

Of course ideally you'd want a monitor with great colors, black levels, HDR, high resolution, AND high refresh rate, but right now the only monitors that come close to offering that are very expensive.
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:44 am

I can see the difference between my 144Hy and 60Hz screens when scrolling and during general use. However, being able to notice and being bothered are not the same thing. Look at your other requirements, specifically color support (for photo editing and the like) and price.

If the difference in price is minor and the other specs are equivalent, I would get the high-refresh monitor.
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:46 am

Voldenuit wrote:
MileageMayVary wrote:
superjawes wrote:
So using a 120 Hz display would be better here because you just display each frame for 5 cycles each (24 * 5 = 120).


Who wants to bet that instead of smoothing to 5 exposures they just double to 4 and 6 exposures?


......

The lines see-saw back and forth as the frame is being refreshed at the closest v-sync. This isn't a problem in static scenes, but can cause judder in panning scenes. It's just that we've grown so used to it on 60 Hz TVs and monitors that we don't realize what we've been missing out on.

Image credit: The lovely Aubrey Plaza in Legion. I mean, I could have posted an action scene with an even wilder graph, but who could resist that face?


Excellent, thank you. The 25ms vs 1.5ms jitter is really a big difference. I'm sure you the 60Hz screen is perfectly usable for video, but the 120Hz should be way better visually.
Image
 
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:55 am

LostCat wrote:
Chrispy_ wrote:
I only wish more of the monitor industry would focus on image quality rather than inflating refresh rates and pixel pitch. I can't tell the difference between 120Hz and 240Hz, and I sure as hell can't read text at native resolution on most of the 4K monitors on the market at the moment.

Isn't that what that quantum dot crap is supposed to be about? I guess I haven't paid too much attention, especially to 'professional' displays and whatnot.



Quantum dot increases the gamut to cover over 100% of the sRGB colourspace, but it can't do anything at all to help IPS corner glow or the high black levels that result in grey blacks in a darkened viewing environment. I don't know about you guys but 90% of my home monitor/TV usage is after dusk and I prefer to have low ambient lights on at home rather than lighting up my apartment like a stadium.
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:24 am

I had a 120hz display for 2 years that from a friend before it died. Or rather I've been meaning to take it apart and fix it for the last 3 years.

it felt marginally better outside of gaming. I noticed the difference. But no negative impact.


Cannot wait until video all goes to 25FPS. Provided displays go to 75Hz standard, not 50Hz.

24/30 both have issues with audio sync. And 25 does not.

Of course ideally 60 would be best :)
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:19 am

On my gaming PC I have an Acer 27" XF270HU 144hz freesync 1440p monitor and it is simply awesome. In games it's amazing and for general non-gaming use it is also impressive. Next to it I have A BenQ 27" 1440p 60hz monitor hooked up to a 2011 Mac Mini and TBH that's great too. In general you can definitely see the difference side by side in non-gaming terms as the Mac is only used for email/web surfing/office etc.. The Acer cost me the best part of £200 more so if you're not going to be gaming it is not really worth the extra as you won't notice the difference having never had a high refresh monitor. Side by side you can see and appreciate the difference but for a single non-gaming monitor you'd be better off going for the best 60hz monitor you can afford.
 
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Re: Is 60Hz enough for general [non-gaming] computing?

Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:45 am

Voldenuit wrote:
MileageMayVary wrote:
superjawes wrote:
So using a 120 Hz display would be better here because you just display each frame for 5 cycles each (24 * 5 = 120).


Who wants to bet that instead of smoothing to 5 exposures they just double to 4 and 6 exposures?



Easily tested.

Here is a 23.976 fps video being played back on my 120 Hz display:

Image

From what I've read, the green line represents the frame draw call and the red line the frame draw action. They are fairly well behaved at 120 Hz, as is to be expected.

Here is the same file being played back on my 60 Hz display:

Image

The lines see-saw back and forth as the frame is being refreshed at the closest v-sync. This isn't a problem in static scenes, but can cause judder in panning scenes. It's just that we've grown so used to it on 60 Hz TVs and monitors that we don't realize what we've been missing out on.

Image credit: The lovely Aubrey Plaza in Legion. I mean, I could have posted an action scene with an even wilder graph, but who could resist that face?

Interesting. So still an issue at 100Hz.

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