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Krogoth
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:49 pm

Sounds about right.

People may or not may remember that original GTX Titans (GK110) weren't exactly stellar performers at gaming at their debut. They were somewhat faster then 680/7970 and were eclipsed by their gamer-ordinated GK110 release (780 and 780Ti). GK110 Titan's main gimmick was general compute performance (especially FP32).

It doesn't seem too far-fetch to have fully-enabled RX Vega silicon fall somewhere between 1080 and 1080Ti territory in terms of gaming performance. It will most likely lose in power efficiency though.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:40 pm

And then in nine months when Pascal is all but forgotten, it'll sit at about 1080Ti performance. Isn't this the default performance profile of AMD GPUs lately? They're like good wine.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:52 pm

Yeah good luck with that. I'll admit I haven't cared enough to check, but if you show me a GPU which achieved a 30% boost in performance across the board within 9 months simply from driver updates, then I will happily eat one of whm's magic mushroom treats.

An increase that big is the kind of thing I'd expect to happen over years if it happens at all.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:52 pm

juzz86 wrote:
And then in nine months when Pascal is all but forgotten, it'll sit at about 1080Ti performance. Isn't this the default performance profile of AMD GPUs lately? They're like good wine.

That's the thing, though. Going by the hardware it's supposed to have at least around 1080Ti performance, but bad launch drivers means it takes months, if not years before it gets there, at which point Nvidia will have moved on to their next arch providing the same performance for about 180W. This has been AMD's story ever since GCN 1.0.
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:21 am

You've attributed a 'hard' number where there wasn't one, redocbew - and I didn't necessarily mean that AMD would 'bake in' all that performance either - nVidia shows less diligence in optimising older architectures for longer, is also a takeaway.

AMD stuff currently just seems to age more gracefully, for whatever reason. Perf/W aside (if you can - it's a big driver for a lot of people), if you buy for longevity, there is merit to considering AMD cards regardless of their launch performance deficit - come a year down the track, you may still be receiving optimisations for games, versus not.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:52 am

Why does anyone give a **** about Fire Strike when Time Spy is about? I'd think FS is not really representative of what current cards can do.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:13 am

Like I commented in several places, including in Jeff's story, this is about right. AMD would have done everything to get a token "win" against the 1080, although in truth we are probably looking at a product that is more or less equivalent at the cost of more power.

However, it would be unfair to judge the FE edition on this sole metric. The 1080, powerful as it is, does NOT have any pro drivers. It is completely destroyed by the Vega FE in anything associated with CAD, 3d modelling and the like. So, for many people the card is an interesting middle ground between strictly validated "pro" cards (that costs several $k) and consumer cards that are not made for the job.

AMD seems to think that game makers might want to switch between making assets (3d modelling, pro drivers) and testing the game (game drivers) will be interested. I guess that is an interesting niche. The price is not at all bad for a pro product and the power consumption is probably not very important in that use case.

The most relevant question for us is what can we deduce for the gaming version that will follow. I would guess slightly higher performance enabled by having to feed less RAM (8GB vs 16GB) with probably similar power consumption. I would estimate $500 for an air cooled version, roughly equivalent to the 1080, and $700 for the water cooled version, scoring above the 1080 but below the 1080Ti.

As I also noted elsewhere, the maturing ROCm platform and the release of the miOpen (equivalent to cuDNN) may make or break the product for several compute applications. The nVidia advantage in compute is probably more about software than hardware. There is a lot of work to do on that front, but things seem to be moving in the right direction.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:42 am

Provided the power consumption isn't mounstrous and the price is between $400-500 I'm actually pretty happy with the results. I'm looking to upgrade soon (bought an RX 580 but sold it for $465) and I'd prefer to stick with AMD as I've got a 1440p freesync monitor.

I'm not sure how people figure RX Vega will get close to the 1080 Ti at launch.
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:29 am

LostCat wrote:
Why does anyone give a **** about Fire Strike when Time Spy is about? I'd think FS is not really representative of what current cards can do.


In Time Spy it scores significantly worse than my overclocked 1080:

http://www.3dmark.com/compare/spy/1965265/spy/1988864
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:33 am

I am wondering if AMD will expedite Navi architecture because of the results here. And with the assumed limited availability of Vega because of HBM2. Makes me wonder if they will switch back to GDDR5X or 6 with Navi. AMD's directional focus has been spread thin trying to make multipurpose card such as with Vega, but probably because of their limit resources. But the preliminary results in these benchmark tests of Vega FE seem troubling for sure. I hope it will have some redeeming qualities during the influx of review's. :wink:
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:38 am

ultima_trev wrote:
In Time Spy it scores significantly worse than my overclocked 1080:

http://www.3dmark.com/compare/spy/1965265/spy/1988864

Also using a far worse processor though. I'm rather suspicious of that comparison with DX12 code (though overclocking already makes it pointless to most people.)
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:54 pm

juzz86 wrote:
You've attributed a 'hard' number where there wasn't one, redocbew


The 1080Ti is about 30% faster on average than the 1080. If you want to add maybe 5-10% wiggle room because of this being a "soft" number that doesn't really change anything. Buying certain components based on what you think might happen a year or more down the road isn't really any different than waiting for the Next Big Thing which will get here at some distant and undetermined point in the future.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:51 pm

ultima_trev wrote:
LostCat wrote:
Why does anyone give a **** about Fire Strike when Time Spy is about? I'd think FS is not really representative of what current cards can do.


In Time Spy it scores significantly worse than my overclocked 1080:

http://www.3dmark.com/compare/spy/1965265/spy/1988864


That doesn't surprise me. Time Spy does a lot more async stuff, so I'm imagine it would be very sensitive to driver implementations compared to 'traditional' GPU tasks, like vertices, fill, light, texture, etc.

I can't imagine the current AMD drivers are anywhere near baked enough for Time Spy numbers to be representative of potential or future performance.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:27 pm

I wonder if Vega is going to be the GPU version of Bulldozer...sure hope not as I am wanting one and patiently waiting.
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:52 pm

What about the fact that the tester was using drivers from January (17.1.1 - which are obviously not optimized for vega)? I think I'll wait until some more tests surface before making any inferences on how Vega stacks up.
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:22 pm

Ryan at PCPer has spent this evening testing a Vega FE he bought out of pocket. His stream is still going as of this post, but here's some info already http://wccftech.com/amd-radeon-vega-fro ... sts-pcper/


Said it before and got knocked for it. :lol: AMD's handling of Vega and the lead up to it has been showing many parallels to the HD 2900 XT fiasco. While consumer Vega certainly won't perform worse than its predecessor, it's readily apparent that if it does manage to compete on perf with the 1080 Ti it is going to chew through considerably more power to do it. And that's the best case scenario. AMD wouldn't be forcing the clocks (and hence the power consumption) so far beyond the efficiency curve if they didn't have to do so. The 580 is a prime example.

Fonbu wrote:
I am wondering if AMD will expedite Navi architecture because of the results here. And with the assumed limited availability of Vega because of HBM2. Makes me wonder if they will switch back to GDDR5X or 6 with Navi. AMD's directional focus has been spread thin trying to make multipurpose card such as with Vega, but probably because of their limit resources. But the preliminary results in these benchmark tests of Vega FE seem troubling for sure. I hope it will have some redeeming qualities during the influx of review's. :wink:


There are probably extra reasons beyond the selling price as to why AMD swapped the launch of consumer/compute cards for Vega. It affords AMD the ability to offload the most power inefficient chips to the FirePro lineup while stocking better chips for the consumer market. Also creates more time to optimize consumer drivers to squeeze out performance where they can. As consumer Vega is supposed to have higher clocks than Vega FE AMD is probably still deciding on the highest clocks they can get away with.
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:50 pm

The PCPer results tonight were pretty bad. On average, it was closer to 1070 than 1080, while pulling about 280 watts. They're gonna have to price these pretty damn cheap to keep it from bombing even worse than Fiji.
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:57 pm

cynan wrote:
What about the fact that the tester was using drivers from January (17.1.1 - which are obviously not optimized for vega)? I think I'll wait until some more tests surface before making any inferences on how Vega stacks up.


He's updated to 17.20.1035 as of a day ago. It seems as though the latest scores are with the latest drivers, as he talks about benchmarking with the drivers in "game mode". Still, I think even the latest Vega drivers need more time to mature, and #define agrees.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:09 pm

Demetri wrote:
The PCPer results tonight were pretty bad. On average, it was closer to 1070 than 1080, while pulling about 280 watts. They're gonna have to price these pretty damn cheap to keep it from bombing even worse than Fiji.


wccftech has a link to the stream here, and some preliminary results.

http://wccftech.com/amd-radeon-vega-frontier-edition-live-benchmarks-performance-tests-pcper/
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:22 pm

Demetri wrote:
The PCPer results tonight were pretty bad. On average, it was closer to 1070 than 1080, while pulling about 280 watts. They're gonna have to price these pretty damn cheap to keep it from bombing even worse than Fiji.


Ouch. I was thinking it would at least be ~1080 or a little better with the downside of having noticeably higher power draw.
Driver updates are great and important, but to be blunt it's not like AMD hasn't had time to work on getting the drivers at least most of the way there already, and these appear to be in "game mode" so it's not like they are intentionally stunting game performance to tune for workstation uses instead.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:35 pm

Yeah no. It was barely better than a 1070 in most of the runs. I'm not fanboy of anything - the only thing I care about is performance and cost. For all the hype, you can't help but be let down if you're an AMD aficionado. Another long promised product that's already well over a year behind the curve.
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:50 pm

Vega RX is supposed to have higher clocks, but yeah I was expecting it to do a little better also. Benches from 3DMark are sure to have seen some attention already. I doubt either AMD or Nvidia would post a public driver without doing that first. As for everything else, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:31 am

The latest theory/excuse is that the Vega FE is not using the tiled rendering feature https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/6 ... d/djld98t/

I'm not sure if that's correct or incorrect, but for a product that has officially launched and is available for purchase, you'd think that a major feature like that would be turned on. Maybe tiled rendering will lead to a large performance boost.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:04 am

It feels why wouldn´t tiled rendering work. How do you test that it is turned off? Same program as you would use to test Nvidia´s?
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:07 am

IcedEarth wrote:
It feels why wouldn´t tiled rendering work. How do you test that it is turned off? Same program as you would use to test Nvidia´s?


I honestly don't know, which is why the reddit thread above is something to consider but with a big ol' grain of salt.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:24 am

Tile rendering is testable. I don't pretend to be remotely knowledgeable on HOW that works but David Kanter is.
http://www.realworldtech.com/tile-based ... idia-gpus/

I'm wondering if AMD actually planned this by possibly engineering Vega more for AI and compute somehow.
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:31 am

There were all sorts of theories about the 2900 XT too. But clearly anyone that has overclocked GPUs will know a clockspeed bump alone isn't going to be remotely enough to make it a 1080 Ti contender.

IcedEarth wrote:
It feels why wouldn´t tiled rendering work. How do you test that it is turned off? Same program as you would use to test Nvidia´s?


The same way it was discovered and explored in the first place, David Kanter's vid on it: https://youtu.be/Nc6R1hwXhL8 I don't subscribe to the tile-rendering disabled theory, if that was true it should've performed even worse. Since when has any FirePro or Quadro card shipped with something as fundamental like this disabled? I can't think of a single example.
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:35 am

I don't think PCper's benchmarks are all that far off. That "demo" they showed in December showed whatever Vega silicon w/8GB of memory running "about" 60-70 FPS in Doom 4K (Vulcan). That's ROUGHLY on par with a 1080. Feels like that's about what we'll see. Above the 1080 in a few, below in others. But using way way way way more power.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:15 pm

PC Perspective review is up:

https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics- ... led-Review

Good News: It tends to beat the GTX 1070.

Bad News: Only just barely at twice the power consumption.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:53 pm

Man, that review does not paint a pretty picture. I almost feel bad for AMD.
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