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lmc5b
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:15 pm

For those wondering about the tile-based rendering being disabled, you can compare this test to David's video: (3h50m)
https://youtu.be/bhGAS_oGN3c?t=3h50m
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:39 pm

This makes me much less likely on getting a freesync2 monitor. I'll wait a little longer before pulling the trigger.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:47 pm

At the high end, it actually makes a 1080Ti + G-Sync monitor look like great value. The combo will cost less than Vega FE + Freesync and be faster.
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:53 pm

It's difficult to call anything at the high end a great value these days, but yeah it does help to tip the scales. If this is at all predictive for Vega RX, then I guess I'll continue saving rewards points on the CC for a 1080Ti upgrade at some point.

Of course I don't really need a 1080Ti, but my inner hardware junkie does. :P
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lmc5b
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:23 pm

jihadjoe wrote:
At the high end, it actually makes a 1080Ti + G-Sync monitor look like great value. The combo will cost less than Vega FE + Freesync and be faster.

Wouldn't the price of the gaming parts be considerably lower? I don't think anyone would recommend getting Vega FE for gaming only.
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:10 pm

DancinJack wrote:
Man, that review does not paint a pretty picture. I almost feel bad for AMD.


Supposely, it is using "Fiji" drivers are the moment and the hardware isn't being utilized correctly. I would wait until RX Vega offically comes out before making a judgement call on it.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:58 pm

I'm willing to believe the Fiji drivers theory. Because there is way more going on than just a bad launch. A simple die shrink of Fiji would get better results than this. Why the hell wouldn't AMD just release a 14nm Fiji and be done with it, if these were the numbers they were looking at?

And that's not even counting the new features like the new rasterizer, memory controller, or tile based renderer.

The way it's performing looks like none of the new features are being used, and on top of that, even the raw compute power isn't being used properly either.

If the drivers are basically working like Fiji, but the underlying architecture is different (like how the pixel engine is connected to the L2 cache now) it would basically explain why it's even worse than Fiji.

Otherwise I don't see how they could have managed to screw up THIS badly.
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:46 pm

Redocbew wrote:
It's difficult to call anything at the high end a great value these days, but yeah it does help to tip the scales. If this is at all predictive for Vega RX, then I guess I'll continue saving rewards points on the CC for a 1080Ti upgrade at some point.

Of course I don't really need a 1080Ti, but my inner hardware junkie does. :P


The 1080Ti is very nearly a linear increase in performance from a 1080 for a linear increase in price (as long as you can find an aftermarket cooled card without a markup). It's good enough value for me to have gotten one, although I did manage to snag a Gigabyte windforce for $635.
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Kougar
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:01 am

Yeowch, those are some rough results. But I don't see why they are hard to believe. Vega has the exact identical 4096 stream processors, 64 ROPs and 256 texture units in the same quad SM arrangement. It has ~35% better clocks, and if you use Anandtech's Bench comparison tool ~25% is pretty close for how much better it outperforms Fiji's results without sending it over the 1080 results.

Another thing is that Vega may have HBM2, but it's actually lost memory bandwidth compared to Fiji. Probably doesn't matter much for games considering it gives it bandwidth parity with the 1080 Ti, but it's 29GB/s less than Fiji.
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:29 am

We are all critical of this preliminary result from Vega FE and rightfully so. I think if this result sticks the price will need to fit the RX Vega's performance level. And I that could remain high because of the HBM2 driving up the BOM. AMD's margins on the RX Vega could be much lower than Polaris.

I imagine that AMD will leave all portions of the Vega die intact for the Rx Vega, AMD isn't known for disabling portions of the GPU even know that might improve clock and power consumption for a gaming focused GPU.

As for the driver situation mentioned and if indeed the tile raster is not active in the driver used, what amount of improvement would this enhance?
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ptsant
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:46 am

ultima_trev wrote:
PC Perspective review is up:

https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics- ... led-Review

Good News: It tends to beat the GTX 1070.

Bad News: Only just barely at twice the power consumption.


On the other hand, Vega FE is highly competitive with the Quadros in professional benchmarks and scores wins over the P4000 ($1000) and the P5000 ($2000). It also wins over the Titan Xp in many of these benchmarks. Now, take a Quadro and try to play a game on it. If I needed a Quadro (and did not absolutely require CUDA), I would take a really good look at Vega FE.

This is not the gaming card and the drivers are not 100% gaming drivers. For example, I have no idea what the penalty is for ECC RAM.

My estimate for the gaming version remains: roughly equivalent to the 1080 nonTi (at best slightly faster with the watercooling), consumes more power, sells at $500 ($700 with water). If they can't manage this, Raja will (should) have to find another job.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:02 am

ptsant wrote:
ultima_trev wrote:
PC Perspective review is up:

https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics- ... led-Review

Good News: It tends to beat the GTX 1070.

Bad News: Only just barely at twice the power consumption.


On the other hand, Vega FE is highly competitive with the Quadros in professional benchmarks and scores wins over the P4000 ($1000) and the P5000 ($2000). It also wins over the Titan Xp in many of these benchmarks. Now, take a Quadro and try to play a game on it. If I needed a Quadro (and did not absolutely require CUDA), I would take a really good look at Vega FE.

This is not the gaming card and the drivers are not 100% gaming drivers. For example, I have no idea what the penalty is for ECC RAM.

My estimate for the gaming version remains: roughly equivalent to the 1080 nonTi (at best slightly faster with the watercooling), consumes more power, sells at $500 ($700 with water). If they can't manage this, Raja will (should) have to find another job.

What's the problem gaming with a Quadro? It's no more like in the old days. I can't confirm for all games of course but they have comparable performance to an equivalent GeForce, some did actually made a review
Image

https://hothardware.com/reviews/nvidia-quadro-p6000-and-p5000-workstation-gpu-reviews?page=6
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:14 pm

ptsant wrote:
My estimate for the gaming version remains: roughly equivalent to the 1080 nonTi (at best slightly faster with the watercooling), consumes more power, sells at $500 ($700 with water). If they can't manage this, Raja will (should) have to find another job.


I disagree. RX Vega clearly does well as a "FirePro", and AMD needs to make inroads into that market so they can make some profit. As long as Vega wins compute sales the consumer side won't matter as much.

That being said, by the time consumer Vega shows up in stores with actual stock, then odds are it's three months away from facing Volta. As long as Vega is good for compute it will at least have a leg to stand on but as a consumer card it might as well be DOA given Volta is so close.
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:41 pm

Kougar wrote:
That being said, by the time consumer Vega shows up in stores with actual stock, then odds are it's three months away from facing Volta. As long as Vega is good for compute it will at least have a leg to stand on but as a consumer card it might as well be DOA given Volta is so close.

AMD hasn't even had a high end card since the 290 have they? I mean the 390 was basically a 290 so...

Even if it doesn't compete 1:1 on performance, if it can compete on price or features (freesync etc) that's something.

I don't know what to make of it all yet but from what I can tell AMD post Ryzen and Vega AMD is in a hell of a lot better shape on the high end.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:45 pm

stefem wrote:
What's the problem gaming with a Quadro? It's no more like in the old days. I can't confirm for all games of course but they have comparable performance to an equivalent GeForce, some did actually made a review

https://hothardware.com/reviews/nvidia-quadro-p6000-and-p5000-workstation-gpu-reviews?page=6


Thanks for the info. I never really cared about pro cards, so I remained with the impression that Firepro/Quadro won't game that well.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:03 am

stefem wrote:
What's the problem gaming with a Quadro? It's no more like in the old days. I can't confirm for all games of course but they have comparable performance to an equivalent GeForce, some did actually made a review

https://hothardware.com/reviews/nvidia-quadro-p6000-and-p5000-workstation-gpu-reviews?page=6


This is one of the things I'm curious about the Quadro GP100. More bandwidth, lower latency memory and presumably more ROPs for really insane pixel pushing capabilities. Raw FP32 throughput is actually less than a fully enabled GP102 (Quadro P6000) but those other factors may make it faster in gaming.

It would also be a good point of comparisons as it is the only nVidia card shipping (GV100 on the horizon?) that also has HBM/HBM2 memory.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:12 am

LostCat wrote:
Kougar wrote:
That being said, by the time consumer Vega shows up in stores with actual stock, then odds are it's three months away from facing Volta. As long as Vega is good for compute it will at least have a leg to stand on but as a consumer card it might as well be DOA given Volta is so close.

AMD hasn't even had a high end card since the 290 have they? I mean the 390 was basically a 290 so...

Even if it doesn't compete 1:1 on performance, if it can compete on price or features (freesync etc) that's something.

I don't know what to make of it all yet but from what I can tell AMD post Ryzen and Vega AMD is in a hell of a lot better shape on the high end.


I don't think AMD has had a true high end card since than, however Fiji was kind of an anomaly.

1:1 performance is questionable, but we will see what the miners think of this Vega....

AMD is doing better with the latest figures on market share in the cpu world. Largest single gain apparently.
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Kougar
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:21 pm

LostCat wrote:
AMD hasn't even had a high end card since the 290 have they? I mean the 390 was basically a 290 so...

Even if it doesn't compete 1:1 on performance, if it can compete on price or features (freesync etc) that's something.

I don't know what to make of it all yet but from what I can tell AMD post Ryzen and Vega AMD is in a hell of a lot better shape on the high end.


Fury & Fury X was their "high-end card". I get what you're saying, but my point is AMD cannot sell a midrange GPU that costs as much as a flagship model to make. Unless AMD turns Vega into a GDDR6 chip for consumers it's going to cost too much to make for AMD to be able to market it as anything other than an expensive card.

If AMD wants to continue to "not compete" at the high end then they really should drop HBM2 from their consumer cards altogether. Basically what NVIDIA has already been doing for several years... whomever is pre-planning these GPU generations years in advance at AMD really needs to get their act together.
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:29 pm

Kougar wrote:
Fury & Fury X was their "high-end card". I get what you're saying, but my point is AMD cannot sell a midrange GPU that costs as much as a flagship model to make. Unless AMD turns Vega into a GDDR6 chip for consumers it's going to cost too much to make for AMD to be able to market it as anything other than an expensive card.

If AMD wants to continue to "not compete" at the high end then they really should drop HBM2 from their consumer cards altogether. Basically what NVIDIA has already been doing for several years... whomever is pre-planning these GPU generations years in advance at AMD really needs to get their act together.

I pretty much agree with you. As it stands now, this looks exceedingly silly and I hope their gaming card pricing is a lot more appropriate.

As it stands now I want Vega, but I'll likely be doing a lot of my gaming on the ps4p+x1x so I'm not too concerned.
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Voldenuit
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:35 am

Kougar wrote:
LostCat wrote:
AMD hasn't even had a high end card since the 290 have they? I mean the 390 was basically a 290 so...

Even if it doesn't compete 1:1 on performance, if it can compete on price or features (freesync etc) that's something.

I don't know what to make of it all yet but from what I can tell AMD post Ryzen and Vega AMD is in a hell of a lot better shape on the high end.


Fury & Fury X was their "high-end card". I get what you're saying, but my point is AMD cannot sell a midrange GPU that costs as much as a flagship model to make. Unless AMD turns Vega into a GDDR6 chip for consumers it's going to cost too much to make for AMD to be able to market it as anything other than an expensive card.

If AMD wants to continue to "not compete" at the high end then they really should drop HBM2 from their consumer cards altogether. Basically what NVIDIA has already been doing for several years... whomever is pre-planning these GPU generations years in advance at AMD really needs to get their act together.


My prediction is that RX Vega will feature 8 GB of HBM2. This should be a lot cheaper than the 16 GB HBM2 on the Vega FE, and should free up some power and TDP budget for the GPU, allowing it to clock higher before throttling.

It's been rumored for a while that Apple is going to have an 8 GB Vega option in the iMac Pro, and both Samsung and Hynix have 1024-bit 4 GB HBM2 modules, so we have a certain degree of confidence that the configuration is feasible.
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stefem
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:42 am

the wrote:
stefem wrote:
What's the problem gaming with a Quadro? It's no more like in the old days. I can't confirm for all games of course but they have comparable performance to an equivalent GeForce, some did actually made a review

https://hothardware.com/reviews/nvidia-quadro-p6000-and-p5000-workstation-gpu-reviews?page=6


This is one of the things I'm curious about the Quadro GP100. More bandwidth, lower latency memory and presumably more ROPs for really insane pixel pushing capabilities. Raw FP32 throughput is actually less than a fully enabled GP102 (Quadro P6000) but those other factors may make it faster in gaming.

It would also be a good point of comparisons as it is the only nVidia card shipping (GV100 on the horizon?) that also has HBM/HBM2 memory.

There are situation where more bandwidth combined with more ROP will help even if compute power is lower but lower latency will have a negligible impact as GPU's like to trade latency for more bandwidth
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:41 pm

stefem wrote:
ptsant wrote:
ultima_trev wrote:
PC Perspective review is up:

https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics- ... led-Review

Good News: It tends to beat the GTX 1070.

Bad News: Only just barely at twice the power consumption.


On the other hand, Vega FE is highly competitive with the Quadros in professional benchmarks and scores wins over the P4000 ($1000) and the P5000 ($2000). It also wins over the Titan Xp in many of these benchmarks. Now, take a Quadro and try to play a game on it. If I needed a Quadro (and did not absolutely require CUDA), I would take a really good look at Vega FE.

This is not the gaming card and the drivers are not 100% gaming drivers. For example, I have no idea what the penalty is for ECC RAM.

My estimate for the gaming version remains: roughly equivalent to the 1080 nonTi (at best slightly faster with the watercooling), consumes more power, sells at $500 ($700 with water). If they can't manage this, Raja will (should) have to find another job.

What's the problem gaming with a Quadro? It's no more like in the old days. I can't confirm for all games of course but they have comparable performance to an equivalent GeForce, some did actually made a review
Image

https://hothardware.com/reviews/nvidia-quadro-p6000-and-p5000-workstation-gpu-reviews?page=6


The same story holds true today. Quadros run ~10-30% slower then their Geforce counterparts in real-world gaming applications because their drivers are focused on precision and accuracy in their renderings and don't utilize optimization tricks for extra performance.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Wed Jul 05, 2017 12:38 pm

Krogoth wrote:
stefem wrote:
ptsant wrote:

On the other hand, Vega FE is highly competitive with the Quadros in professional benchmarks and scores wins over the P4000 ($1000) and the P5000 ($2000). It also wins over the Titan Xp in many of these benchmarks. Now, take a Quadro and try to play a game on it. If I needed a Quadro (and did not absolutely require CUDA), I would take a really good look at Vega FE.

This is not the gaming card and the drivers are not 100% gaming drivers. For example, I have no idea what the penalty is for ECC RAM.

My estimate for the gaming version remains: roughly equivalent to the 1080 nonTi (at best slightly faster with the watercooling), consumes more power, sells at $500 ($700 with water). If they can't manage this, Raja will (should) have to find another job.

What's the problem gaming with a Quadro? It's no more like in the old days. I can't confirm for all games of course but they have comparable performance to an equivalent GeForce, some did actually made a review
Image

https://hothardware.com/reviews/nvidia-quadro-p6000-and-p5000-workstation-gpu-reviews?page=6


The same story holds true today. Quadros run ~10-30% slower then their Geforce counterparts in real-world gaming applications because their drivers are focused on precision and accuracy in their renderings and don't utilize optimization tricks for extra performance.

Not in my experience, I noted that my Quadro K6000 perform really similar to the GTX 780Ti I have hands on, of course I can't confirm that for every game of the world but if you care to actually look at the link in my precedent post you will see that in Hitman 2016 (I game I didn't tried) the Quadro P6000 is faster than the Pascal based Titan X.
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:48 pm

stefem wrote:
Not in my experience


That's because it's largely a myth.

To the extent that there is a difference, it probably comes to down to Nvidia just not bothering to include the game-specific profiles with the Quadro drivers. Which matters somewhat for some games, very little for others, and not-at-all for the games that never got them.

Obviously the price-performance is wrecked for these cards if you are just gaming, but the rest of is tech enthusiast urban legend.
 
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:54 pm

Glorious wrote:
stefem wrote:
Not in my experience


That's because it's largely a myth.

To the extent that there is a difference, it probably comes to down to Nvidia just not bothering to include the game-specific profiles with the Quadro drivers. Which matters somewhat for some games, very little for others, and not-at-all for the games that never got them.

Obviously the price-performance is wrecked for these cards if you are just gaming, but the rest of is tech enthusiast urban legend.


Don't forget that gaming cards probably have more aggressive clock-boosting in place than a professional card that's not trying to win gaming benchmarks.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:57 pm

cynan wrote:
DrDominodog51 wrote:
Hmm... The guy in the link says it wasn't holding a constant 1600 MHz during the 3DMark run.


Could that have something to do with the tester using a barely adequate PSU (550W)?

PSUs cause instability, not slow clocks. I'm not sure where this rumor ever started, but it's absolutely an old-wives tale 99.9% of the time.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:35 pm

This came out today: http://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/2977- ... clocks-ipc

I'm fairly confident that either the Fiji driver theory is correct or it's a die shrink of Fiji.
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Voldenuit
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:53 pm

DrDominodog51 wrote:
This came out today: http://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/2977- ... clocks-ipc

I'm fairly confident that either the Fiji driver theory is correct or it's a die shrink of Fiji.


Actually, reading the article, I'm doubting either theory. Gamersnexus (with the disclaimer that we shouldn't really read too much into their test, and they admittedly have no idea what is really going on) claims some tests indicate that Vega's primitive discard engine might be boosting performance in some titles. So that would indicate that the 17.20 Vega-fied drivers are not simply a repackage of Fiji drivers. However, this does not mean that every title being tested is optimized for or utilizing resources appropriately.

As to the second point, we know of many instances where Vega is much more capable than Fiji. It has double the FP16 throughput. It has a primitive discard engine (whether it's working correctly in all programs is another matter). It has an Infinity Interconnect and High Bandwidth Cache Controller, and (presumably) more on-board cache. So even if the graphics execution unit count is the same as Fiji, it's definitely not a simple die shrink.
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:51 pm

Vega is definitely not just a die shrink of Fiji.

Even though the FE stuff hasn't been amazing yet, I still think we're looking at above 1070 in most stuff, about 1080 in some others, and maybe above 1080 in a few particular things where Vega excels. When is RX launch?
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Re: Vega FE Fire Strike, on par with GTX 1080

Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:22 pm

I didn't see anyone post die size yet?

It appears the die (Vega only, no HBM) is roughly 25.90mm x 19.80mm = 512.82mm-ish. (almost cut off a sig fig)
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