TR Forums

Vhalidictes · Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:56 pm

I don't think that there's much to debate about... As nice as it is to have something, the Steam survey is random as hell and biased in unknown ways, bad sample sizing and not-enough-rechecks among them.

The only thing that it's safe to say is that AMD cards have historically sold pretty well and are probably higher in overall market share than the Steam surveys show. By how much? No way to tell.

Lordhawkwind · Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:00 pm

CScottG wrote:
Lordhawkwind wrote:

I've had steam for years and never once participated in their survey. It's not at all representative of overall GPU market share and by trying to portray it as so is extremely misleading to say the least. So you'd rather they were no AMD graphics competition and the next 1160 was $800 I'm sure you'd be the first in the queue to buy it. Never heard of the saying beware what you wish for in case you get it Saying all cards went to miners is absolute FUD as you can't provide one shred of evidence that your comment is true. I'm not a miner and I've got one and if you look at other forums there are a load of people who have Vega cards who are just gamers like me. So please spare us your green tinted BS unless you can back it up please.

Honestly, it's a post like this that makes me wonder where the moderators are.

So if that's the case why aren't the moderators doing something about Cyan and Glorious as none of their claims seem to stack up. Can you provide any evidence to back up their claims? If not who's talking BS? I seem to be asking for REAL FACTS they can't seem to prove. Is it really that hard to understand?

Glorious · Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:06 pm

Lordhawkwind wrote:
Perhaps the steam survey is not completely representative of the distribution of GPU manufacturers across gamers Oh so now you're finally agreeing with me.

No, he isn't. You're selectively quoting.

Go away.

Lordhawkwind wrote:
I'm still awaiting you or Glorious to provide me with the baseline respondents so we can actually work out what 82% market share actually is.

That's gibberish.

Lordhawkwind wrote:
So just like glorious if you want me to 'go away' please provide me with the number of respondents and then I'll gladly go. If you can't then maybe you and glorious should acknowledge that the Steam survey is not at all representative of GPU market share. Let's see what you can do.

Steam has over 100 million subscribers and over 10 million concurrent users at times.

The notion that Steam does not have an adequate sample size is absurdly ridiculous, and your continual insistence that since *YOU* never respond to the surveys we can therefore rely on their irrelevance is utterly unhinged solipism.

--

I'm not waiting for you to do anything at this point. You're never going to make an argument, you are just going to spew statistical misconceptions of the most basic sort without providing any assertion other than this:

"All of your numbers are wrong, because I personally didn't contribute to them."

I don't like this sort of stupid fanboyism, and I *really* don't like it in someone who maliciously & falsely accuses others of it.

go away.

Glorious · Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:07 pm

Lordhawkwind wrote:
So if that's the case why aren't the moderators doing something about Cyan and Glorious as none of their claims seem to stack up. Can you provide any evidence to back up their claims? If not who's talking BS? I seem to be asking for REAL FACTS they can't seem to prove. Is it really that hard to understand?

This is the kind of fanboyism that ruins forums.

Seriously, go away.

Lordhawkwind · Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:08 pm

Glorious wrote:
Lordhawkwind wrote:
Glorious please enlighten me how many people actually responded to the Steam survey so we can form a baseline? I can't find it anywhere TBH. From an advertising viewpoint if you publish any statistics regarding a product you have to publish the baseline respondents so people can make a reasoned decision as to whether your claim is worthwhile or not. So 82% of 10 people is not quite as good as 82% of 100,000 people. As Steam aren't pushing a product presumably they don't have to provide this evidence. Please explain to me, in plain English, exactly how they work out the percentages as I'm really interested TBH. Can you tell me the number of respondents or not. Simples. I can then work out the math.

No you can't. Because if you could, you'd "work out the math" with arbitrary numbers, but we all know you're not going to do that, because you can't.

You want to google something? Try "nonignorable nonresponse" and come back when you can explain to me how it relates to what you only think your argument is.

As Jerry Maquire said SHOW ME THE NUMBER Is that really too much to ask? Explain to me what exactly Nvidia's 82% of market share really is. You've quoted the Steam survey likes it's a gamers GPU bible so please explain to me how they work out the percentages. Am I speaking in a foreign language?

Glorious · Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:12 pm

Lordhawkwind wrote:
Jerry Maquire said SHOW ME THE NUMBER Is that really too much to ask? Explain to me what exactly Nvidia's 82% of market share really is. You've quoted the Steam survey likes it's a gamers GPU bible so please explain to me how they work out the percentages. Am I speaking in a foreign language?

Explain what? I have no idea where you got this 82% number from, as far as I can tell you invented it.

What I do know is that it's not from the Steam Hardware Survey, since I've already cited their recent "PC VIDEO CARD USAGE BY MFG" numbers, and it wasn't remotely close to 82% for Nvidia.

So, if you are angrily demanding that I explain your own imagination to you while you invoke moderation upon me, yeah, that's trolling.

Go away.

Kretschmer · Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:28 pm

Lordhawkwind wrote:

As Jerry Maquire said SHOW ME THE NUMBER Is that really too much to ask? Explain to me what exactly Nvidia's 82% of market share really is. You've quoted the Steam survey likes it's a gamers GPU bible so please explain to me how they work out the percentages. Am I speaking in a foreign language?

Seriously, you're embarrassing yourself here. Tip: "Well, maybe this unlikely thing is true" isn't much of an argument unless you can prove that it is true.

DPete27 · Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:32 pm

I too have been a Steam user for years and have never participated in a hardware survey. I can't imagine Steam compiles automated lists of their user's hardware configs, so the steam hardware survey must be voluntary, right?

At least as far as TR's most recent hardware survey from 2014 shows AMD and Nvidia have a nearly 50/50 split among TR readers. (I think we need a new survey. Every 3 years right!!)

This thread really de-railed BTW.....

Lordhawkwind · Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:37 pm

Glorious wrote:
Lordhawkwind wrote:
Perhaps the steam survey is not completely representative of the distribution of GPU manufacturers across gamers Oh so now you're finally agreeing with me.

No, he isn't. You're selectively quoting.

Go away.

Lordhawkwind wrote:
I'm still awaiting you or Glorious to provide me with the baseline respondents so we can actually work out what 82% market share actually is.

That's gibberish.

Lordhawkwind wrote:
So just like glorious if you want me to 'go away' please provide me with the number of respondents and then I'll gladly go. If you can't then maybe you and glorious should acknowledge that the Steam survey is not at all representative of GPU market share. Let's see what you can do.

Steam has over 100 million subscribers and over 10 million concurrent users at times.

The notion that Steam does not have an adequate sample size is absurdly ridiculous, and your continual insistence that since *YOU* never respond to the surveys we can therefore rely on their irrelevance is utterly unhinged solipism.

--

I'm not waiting for you to do anything at this point. You're never going to make an argument, you are just going to spew statistical misconceptions of the most basic sort without providing any assertion other than this:

"All of your numbers are wrong, because I personally didn't contribute to them."

I don't like this sort of stupid fanboyism, and I *really* don't like it in someone who maliciously & falsely accuses others of it.

go away.

I will once you tell me the number of respondents in the survey so I can work out what 82% is. Stop the BS posts and just provide THE NUMBER OF RESPONDENTS/b] Is that really too much to ask? You've quoted this survey to death so [b]PLEASE PROVIDE SOME CONCRETE EVIDENCE THAT IT IS ACCURATE So you're calling me a fanboy now because you can't prove your own facts. As I said just show me the numbers on that Steam survey and I'll be happy thank you.

Steam has over 100 million subscribers and over 10 million concurrent users at times. So they all voted did they? I don't know because Steam doesn't tell us

Wow that's a really good counter argument not.

CScottG · Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:50 pm

Lordhawkwind wrote:
CScottG wrote:
Lordhawkwind wrote:

I've had steam for years and never once participated in their survey. It's not at all representative of overall GPU market share and by trying to portray it as so is extremely misleading to say the least. So you'd rather they were no AMD graphics competition and the next 1160 was $800 I'm sure you'd be the first in the queue to buy it. Never heard of the saying beware what you wish for in case you get it Saying all cards went to miners is absolute FUD as you can't provide one shred of evidence that your comment is true. I'm not a miner and I've got one and if you look at other forums there are a load of people who have Vega cards who are just gamers like me. So please spare us your green tinted BS unless you can back it up please.

Honestly, it's a post like this that makes me wonder where the moderators are.

So if that's the case why aren't the moderators doing something about Cyan and Glorious as none of their claims seem to stack up. Can you provide any evidence to back up their claims? If not who's talking BS? I seem to be asking for REAL FACTS they can't seem to prove. Is it really that hard to understand?

Actually, while I think the current "debate" (in the loosest possible sense of the word) is mostly absurd and has very little to do with the topic of this thread, it's not however what I objected to.

1. Claiming that any portrayal is extremely misleading by another is just BAD FORM, it's *obviously* inflammatory. (..and what's worse is that you haven't even gone to the trouble of explaining how the Steam Survey is NOT representative of the overall GPU market in this post. And no, the admission that you haven't included your own GPU in the survey isn't substantive. Realistically the sample size that the survey presents is *very* large, and to the best of my knowledge is the largest sample-size that's available (..specifically GPU/Gaming). And sure, any application of that survey is debatable, but flat-out saying another is making an "extremely misleading" statement by using it is rather repugnant.) Worse,

2. Creating a straw-man argument: imputing absurd claims to another and than laughingly dismissing them is flat-out TROLLING. Worse, it usually generates added "noise" to the thread with various objections that "derail" the thread (..yes, like this one - and numerous others before it). The use of the straw-man argument is just plain vile.

3. Finally, the implication of bias is just off-putting. Really if you have to say it (without others obviously sensing it), then you are probably wrong (..or if correct: at best you are just stating the obvious .."the sky is blue" *..well no **it!*). It's rather like a "green" trial attorney catching a witness on the stand in a lie and then proudly proclaiming "Ah HA! You are LYING!" That attorney comes off sounding like a complete ass even though correct. Worse, of course is saying "Ah, HA! You are LYING!" withOUT any obvious implication. Again, BAD FORM.

-and all of it is inflammatory (in the sense that it doesn't really promote civil discourse).

And now my apologies to others for crapping-on this thread with yet another off-topic post. :oops:

Topinio · Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:04 pm

Couldn't resist thread. Is this a big deal?

Lordhawkwind · Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:04 pm

Glorious wrote:
Lordhawkwind wrote:
Jerry Maquire said SHOW ME THE NUMBER Is that really too much to ask? Explain to me what exactly Nvidia's 82% of market share really is. You've quoted the Steam survey likes it's a gamers GPU bible so please explain to me how they work out the percentages. Am I speaking in a foreign language?

Explain what? I have no idea where you got this 82% number from, as far as I can tell you invented it.

What I do know is that it's not from the Steam Hardware Survey, since I've already cited their recent "PC VIDEO CARD USAGE BY MFG" numbers, and it wasn't remotely close to 82% for Nvidia.

So, if you are angrily demanding that I explain your own imagination to you while you invoke moderation upon me, yeah, that's trolling.

Go away.

cynan wrote:
Sure, we don't know for certain how accurate the "18%" is, because sampling and denominators are not explicitly defined. But it still likely paints a fairly representative picture of current AMD vs Nvidia GPU adoption by gamers. I think we've been moderated TBH because there were lots of posts that have now disappeared. Just to show you I haven't made it up. Maybe ask Cynan where he got it from

Glorious · Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:06 pm

Lordhawkwind wrote:
I will once you tell me the number of respondents in the survey so I can work out what 82% is. Stop the BS posts and just provide THE NUMBER OF RESPONDENTS/b] Is that really too much to ask?

Where is this 82% thing coming from?

This is a sincere question, because I honestly have no idea what your 82% even is. As far as I can tell, it didn't come from me, it didn't come from Valve, it came from you, and I fundamentally do not understand either its provenance or its significance.

Like, I'm not even sure what it is supposed to be a percentage of?

Lordhawkwind wrote:
So they all voted did they? I don't know because Steam doesn't tell us Wow that's a really good counter argument not.

Look, it doesn't matter if they all voted, that's just not how sampling works, OK?

I've already hinted (look what I previously asked you to google) where you need to go produce an intelligible argument that can actually be discussed.

Other than that, what I am supposed to say? You are going all-out about this in a way that simply does not make any sense.

Glorious · Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:23 pm

Lordhawkwind wrote:
Just to show you I haven't made it up. Maybe ask Cynan where he got it from

Uhh....

Are you are saying that you get 82% figure because cynan cited the ~18% AMD GPU number from the survey?

As I said before, I'm still completely lost, because AMD having 18% doesn't mean Nvidia has 82%, there's another company called "Intel"

Here:

Glorious wrote:
What I do know is that it's not from the Steam Hardware Survey, since I've already cited their recent "PC VIDEO CARD USAGE BY MFG" numbers, and it wasn't remotely close to 82% for Nvidia.

And if you are asking me where I got that number(though I didn't, *you* did), well, uh, 100-18=82, right?

Seriously, what are you even getting at?

Lordhawkwind · Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:27 pm

Look at my post above and maybe ask Cynan where it came from and you know as well you quoted it enough times

Well at least we know what you're really like. Does 100 -18% not represent 82%. Has my math gone funny. Strange all the other posts have been deleted isn't it. I see you're both regular posters and I'm not so hey ho. I know what was said and I now know what to really think of this site TBH. :evil:

Sad really sad but's that life.

Glorious · Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:32 pm

Lordhawkwind wrote:
well at least we know what you're really like. Does 100 -18% not represent 82%.

Not for "Nvidia market share", no.

As I said, there's another company in the mix called Intel.

Lordhawkwind wrote:
Strange all the other posts have been deleted isn't it.

...Not as far as I can tell? And I don't think this forum has any tricks like shadowbanning or the like, so I'm not really sure why what you see would any different...?

To be clear, I can see the post you cited just fine, here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=119967&start=120#p1361632

Does that work for you?

Lordhawkwind wrote:
I see you're both regular posters and I'm not so hey ho. I know what was said and I now know what to really think of this site TBH. Sad really sad but's that life.

Dude, seriously, cynan and I don't normally get along. Kougar and I don't normally get along.

Heck, I don't get along with anyone I guess.

It's not like that, believe me.

Redocbew · Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:35 pm

Lordhawkwind wrote:
As Jerry Maquire said SHOW ME THE NUMBER

You are not Jerry Maguire, but you may be Tom Cruise. I could imagine that.

Lordhawkwind · Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:39 pm

Glorious wrote:
Lordhawkwind wrote:
Just to show you I haven't made it up. Maybe ask Cynan where he got it from

Uhh....

Are you are saying that you get 82% figure because cynan cited the ~18% AMD GPU number from the survey?

As I said before, I'm still completely lost, because AMD having 18% doesn't mean Nvidia has 82%, there's another company called "Intel"

Here:

Glorious wrote:
What I do know is that it's not from the Steam Hardware Survey, since I've already cited their recent "PC VIDEO CARD USAGE BY MFG" numbers, and it wasn't remotely close to 82% for Nvidia.

And if you are asking me where I got that number(though I didn't, *you* did), well, uh, 100-18=82, right?

Seriously, what are you even getting at?

I had to find that quote from Cyan in my history because it had been deleted from this site. Glorious BS all you want you know what I'm talking about and TBH I don't know what to really call you as you're so beneath my contempt.

Lordhawkwind · Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:41 pm

Redocbew wrote:
Lordhawkwind wrote:
As Jerry Maquire said SHOW ME THE NUMBER

You are not Jerry Maguire, but you may be Tom Cruise. I could imagine that.

I'm too tall and handsome for Tom Cruise or so the wife tells me.

Glorious · Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:42 pm

Lordhawkwind wrote:
I had to find that quote from Cyan in my history because it had been deleted from this site. Glorious BS all you want you know what I'm talking about and TBH I don't know what to really call you as you're so beneath my contempt.

I'm telling you, it's right there. Nothing happened.

Does the link I provided not work?

Lordhawkwind · Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:06 pm

Whatever you want to believe mate. I know the score thank you.

Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:09 pm

Lordhawkwind wrote:
Whatever you want to believe mate. I know the score thank you.

Sorry to break your heart, but the mods have done nothing to this thread other than discuss among ourselves at which point it gets locked for conduct just like this.

Lordhawkwind · Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:10 pm

So Glorious just point me to Cynan's post I posted above. Cheers.

techguy · Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:12 pm

Oh would you look at that, it's a poster from Rage3d ruining a thread on a different forum. I *never* would have imagined that. :roll:

CScottG · Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:15 pm

techguy wrote:
Oh would you look at that, it's a poster from Rage3d ruining a thread on a different forum. I *never* would have imagined that.

..see, now that's humor. :wink:

willyolioleo · Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:56 pm

wow, my vega 56s from Amazon are FINALLY shipping.

and the price has jumped to over $600. holy crap. so glad i was refreshing like mad on launch day.

Kougar · Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:46 pm

willyolioleo wrote:
wow, my vega 56s from Amazon are FINALLY shipping.

and the price has jumped to over $600. holy crap. so glad i was refreshing like mad on launch day.

Not even showing 56's direct from amazon for me, just the Vega 64's for $650 each. Newegg has two Vega 56's for $550. The entire thing is a joke at this point.

CScottG · Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:22 pm

Kougar wrote:
..The entire thing is a joke at this point.

I'd go much further than that.

I think that it's a clear deceptive practice, in the US and elsewhere.

AMD used just about every tech-reporting source (the "press") to convey an MSRP that isn't at all accurate. (..with some oh *h!t after-the-fact statement of: "well that's just an initial offering price" as an attempt to cover their asses legally.)

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busines ... ad#general

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busines ... l-business

..of course AMD would argue that market demand is affecting pricing, but the truth is that AMD does have the capacity through retailers to fix those prices. Sure, they may sell-out quickly and pop-up on the secondary market for exorbitant prices, but that would be the market making a correction and not a matter of misleading consumers (and the press).

-and of course that's not even looking at the token 56 stock vs the 64 (..which is oh-so-close to a typical "bait and switch" that it reeks of deception).

Kretschmer · Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:28 pm

Topinio wrote:

Couldn't resist thread. Is this a big deal?

That bottom graph is completely misleading for our discussion:
1) Intel integrated graphics not used for 3D gaming is not relevant to 3D gaming developer support/optimization/etc. E.g. all those corporate PCs running Word and Excel.
2) AMD GPUs shipped to miners don't support AMD's 3D gaming support, either. If only a fraction of AMD GPUs are used for gaming, that bodes poorly for their gaming support in the future. We might see developers default to Gameworks code and call it a day.

Topinio · Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:13 am

Kretschmer wrote:
That bottom graph is completely misleading for our discussion:
1) Intel integrated graphics not used for 3D gaming is not relevant to 3D gaming developer support/optimization/etc. E.g. all those corporate PCs running Word and Excel.
2) AMD GPUs shipped to miners don't support AMD's 3D gaming support, either. If only a fraction of AMD GPUs are used for gaming, that bodes poorly for their gaming support in the future. We might see developers default to Gameworks code and call it a day.

1.0) So if you feel that way, why not ignore the Intel series and just look at the AMD and NVIDIA ones? Because that would support the alternative view.
1.1) Intel is at 13.4% in the Steam survey :roll:

2.0) Does not compute, why would they abandon the non-NVIDIA 32%-49% of the market (Steam hardware surveys passim).
2.1) of course we might see that, we might see anything, mokneys might fly out of my butt.

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