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derFunkenstein
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Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:04 am

So I guess Intel really is shipping a "processor" with AMD graphics for the thin-and-light notebook market.

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3235934 ... phics.html

The rendered image in the article provided by Intel shows that this is absolutely not a single-chip solution. There's an Intel processor, what PCWorld calls an AMD semi-custom design, and a third chip that enables the two to talk directly, though I have to think it's over PCI-Express somehow.

YooToob video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaHs_guCp2o

edit: the PCWorld article makes it sound like a single chip (and even uses those words in one paragraph) but Intel's video makes it clear it's a multi-chip, single-package solution kind of like a Threadripper or Core 2 Quad.

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chuckula
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:13 am

Well my main "prognostication" was an admission that there was no licensing agreement between AMD and Intel for graphics IP. And this is true unless AMD is hiding those big $$$ it's receiving from Intel in its quarterly reports.

Additionally, Lisa Su earler this year said:
“It’s about how do we sell more products, or how do we have our IP in markets where we’re not currently selling products. We’re not looking at enabling a competitor to compete against our products.”


http://fortune.com/2017/05/23/amd-intel-chips/

So maybe Lisa was flat-out lying, or she is shading the truth by claiming that this product will not actually enable Intel to compete against AMD products (which indirectly throws shade at mobile RyZen, BTW).

Anyhoo, I'm curious about these chips but they look like a more advanced version of a low-end discrete AMD GPU that's connected to a mobile Intel CPU over a regular PCIe link, just in a more refined package thanks to Intel's excellent EMIB technology [Edit: and I'm pretty sure the chips are talking to each other over an ordinary PCIe link, just that EMIB provides a much nicer packaging option compared to a traditional motherboard layout]. That's a nice product from a packaging perspective but it's not like we jump up and down about a notebook that has an Intel CPU and a mobile Radeon GPU as being proof of much of anything.
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derFunkenstein
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:17 am

How is Lisa lying in that statement? They're selling more chips. Intel isn't competing with AMD on graphics in this case. They're enabling AMD to sell more silicon.
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chuckula
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:22 am

derFunkenstein wrote:
How is Lisa lying in that statement? They're selling more chips. Intel isn't competing with AMD on graphics in this case. They're enabling AMD to sell more silicon.


Oh that product most certainly competes with AMD's mobile solutions unless you make the assumption that AMD's mobile solutions are not intended to be in the same market segment as these parts. The fact that AMD has some silicon in the package does not mean that it does not compete with other AMD products like a mobile RyZen + mobile Radeon system where AMD would control all of the silicon.

I think it's pretty obvious who the #1 (and potentially only) consumer of these parts will be. A certain large fruity company that starts with an "A" who has shown an affinity for AMD graphics and -- despite the best efforts of TR commenters -- Intel CPUs outside of overpriced mobile products.

And of course I'm referring to Acer.
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:44 am

chuckula wrote:
derFunkenstein wrote:
A certain large fruity company that starts with an "A" who has shown an affinity for AMD graphics and -- despite the best efforts of TR commenters -- Intel CPUs outside of overpriced mobile products.

And of course I'm referring to Acer.


Yup, gonna make me some hot Acer pie later...
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:47 am

chuckula wrote:
Oh that product most certainly competes with AMD's mobile solutions unless you make the assumption that AMD's mobile solutions are not intended to be in the same market segment as these parts. The fact that AMD has some silicon in the package does not mean that it does not compete with other AMD products like a mobile RyZen + mobile Radeon system where AMD would control all of the silicon.

I think it's pretty obvious who the #1 (and potentially only) consumer of these parts will be. A certain large fruity company that starts with an "A" who has shown an affinity for AMD graphics and -- despite the best efforts of TR commenters -- Intel CPUs outside of overpriced mobile products.

If the only targeted customer for this is Apple, and if Apple refuses to use AMD's CPUs in its notebooks, then (once again), this product is not competing with AMD CPUs.
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:53 am

This reminds me of the custom GPU that NVidia made for Apple back in the early Macbook Air. Apple stuck with an older generation of Intel CPUs that didn't integrate the GPU into the package for an extra generation, because Apple didn't want to use Intel's integrated graphics.
 
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:30 am

NTMBK wrote:
This reminds me of the custom GPU that NVidia made for Apple back in the early Macbook Air. Apple stuck with an older generation of Intel CPUs that didn't integrate the GPU into the package for an extra generation, because Apple didn't want to use Intel's integrated graphics.

That because everybody but Intel's marketing department considered iGPUs to be GPUs in name only. Come to think of it, weren't even software 3D renders were more functional and faster then iGPUs at the time? :roll:
 
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:38 am

Intel's iGPUs were historically aimed at business laptops. They filled that role admirably, and at low cost.
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:41 am

just brew it! wrote:
Intel's iGPUs were historically aimed at business laptops. They filled that role admirably, and at low cost.

Until Microsoft decided to switch to GPU composition in the window manager and that arrangement fell apart in a hilarious fireball.
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:46 am

SuperSpy wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Intel's iGPUs were historically aimed at business laptops. They filled that role admirably, and at low cost.

Until Microsoft decided to switch to GPU composition in the window manager and that arrangement fell apart in a hilarious fireball.

I don't remember that particular fireball. I don't think I've ever felt an iGPU's under-perform in general desktop tasks.
 
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:01 am

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
SuperSpy wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Intel's iGPUs were historically aimed at business laptops. They filled that role admirably, and at low cost.

Until Microsoft decided to switch to GPU composition in the window manager and that arrangement fell apart in a hilarious fireball.

I don't remember that particular fireball. I don't think I've ever felt an iGPU's under-perform in general desktop tasks.

Back when the integrated graphics were called Intel Extreme Graphics (so before the 9xx series), performance was pretty rough on Windows XP. So back in the Northwood P4 days. But that's been a while.
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whm1974
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:11 am

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
SuperSpy wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
Intel's iGPUs were historically aimed at business laptops. They filled that role admirably, and at low cost.

Until Microsoft decided to switch to GPU composition in the window manager and that arrangement fell apart in a hilarious fireball.

I don't remember that particular fireball. I don't think I've ever felt an iGPU's under-perform in general desktop tasks.

You must have started using Intel's first iGPUs that was on the CPU package back then because only people who used the chipset iGPUs were the ones who brought El Cheapo "Walmart" computers.
 
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:27 am

whm1974 wrote:
You must have started using Intel's first iGPUs that was on the CPU package back then because only people who used the chipset iGPUs were the ones who brought El Cheapo "Walmart" computers.

Not sure I understand this comment. I've been using integrated graphics since before the turn of the century. I remember distinctly bragging to my High School friends that since my onboard supported up to 32MB of shared system memory, that it was 4X better than his 8MB 3dfx card. :lol: I clearly didn't understand anything beyond memory size in those days.
The business computers I supported and used very rarely had discreet graphics in them, but most of the slowdowns could be attributed to lack of RAM or slow CPU's.
 
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:59 am

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
You must have started using Intel's first iGPUs that was on the CPU package back then because only people who used the chipset iGPUs were the ones who brought El Cheapo "Walmart" computers.

Not sure I understand this comment. I've been using integrated graphics since before the turn of the century. I remember distinctly bragging to my High School friends that since my onboard supported up to 32MB of shared system memory, that it was 4X better than his 8MB 3dfx card. :lol: I clearly didn't understand anything beyond memory size in those days.
The business computers I supported and used very rarely had discreet graphics in them, but most of the slowdowns could be attributed to lack of RAM or slow CPU's.

I think he's referring to the i810 chipset, which had an IGP that was barely evolved from the already obsolete i740 "Starfighter" IP and occupied the AGP connection, meaning that a GPU upgrade wasn't possible. It was, indeed, the bane of every cheap Walmart/BestBuy low-end PC because the IGP performance was mediocre and there was no viable upgrade path.

Intel later fixed that with the i815 series, most of which only had a very slightly improved chipset IGP but could accept an AGP upgrade card. Since AGP couldn't share the yard with friends, the chipset IGP would automatically disabled itself when a GPU was installed.
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:47 pm

ludi wrote:
Usacomp2k3 wrote:
whm1974 wrote:
You must have started using Intel's first iGPUs that was on the CPU package back then because only people who used the chipset iGPUs were the ones who brought El Cheapo "Walmart" computers.

Not sure I understand this comment. I've been using integrated graphics since before the turn of the century. I remember distinctly bragging to my High School friends that since my onboard supported up to 32MB of shared system memory, that it was 4X better than his 8MB 3dfx card. :lol: I clearly didn't understand anything beyond memory size in those days.
The business computers I supported and used very rarely had discreet graphics in them, but most of the slowdowns could be attributed to lack of RAM or slow CPU's.

I think he's referring to the i810 chipset, which had an IGP that was barely evolved from the already obsolete i740 "Starfighter" IP and occupied the AGP connection, meaning that a GPU upgrade wasn't possible. It was, indeed, the bane of every cheap Walmart/BestBuy low-end PC because the IGP performance was mediocre and there was no viable upgrade path.

Intel later fixed that with the i815 series, most of which only had a very slightly improved chipset IGP but could accept an AGP upgrade card. Since AGP couldn't share the yard with friends, the chipset IGP would automatically disabled itself when a GPU was installed.

Indeed I am, I couldn't remember the chipset names so thanks. I do have to admit however that iGPUs have greatly improved since then to a very usable state.
 
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:16 pm

I was referring to Windows Vista and the 'Windows Vista Capable' nonsense.
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:20 pm

SuperSpy wrote:
I was referring to Windows Vista and the 'Windows Vista Capable' nonsense.

Fortunately I never had to use Vista. I stuck with XP for a long time.
 
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:59 pm

SuperSpy wrote:
I was referring to Windows Vista and the 'Windows Vista Capable' nonsense.

Ah yes, that was a mess, I'll agree.
 
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:13 pm

Oh, an "Acer" product makes sense. This is an elegant solution that will hopefully, eventually, find it's way into the majority of laptops in another ten years.

Until then, I was looking at the costs of this. David Kanter figured out that the cost of HBM2 on Vega was around $150 with another $25 for the interposer, roughly 3x the cost of the GDDR5 memory on a 580. Even halving the HBM2 to a single stack would be around $75 to the bill of materials, though there's apparently no interposer required so that helps. Factor in Intel's premium for mobile chips, cost of AMD's gpu, and the extra premium a product like this would get an "Acer" customer sounds exactly like the customer that would buy it.

AMD's mobile Ryzen APUs will be competing in the opposite end of the mobile market. Just look at the size of that GPU, it's larger than the Intel processor next to it (which should be entirely CPU cores with no IGP). Ryzen APUs won't be using anything that big/powerful a GPU, and AMD probably won't be pairing HBM2 with its APUs either.
 
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:13 pm

As others have said, why wouldn't there be an iGPU on the CPU? it only makes sense for them to behave as the current scheme does: integrated taking care of all the light stuff, with the Radeon powered down, then switching across when necessary.

Intel then doesn't need to spin up new silicon, and they get all the power benefits of being able to use the best tool for the task.
 
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:23 pm

Optimus on-die?
 
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:27 pm

HSA just got a whole bunch more heterogeneous, I guess?
 
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Re: Chuckula's prognostication skills are failing him

Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:01 pm

Shobai wrote:
As others have said, why wouldn't there be an iGPU on the CPU?


Doesn't really make sense to blow up core-counts so it's possible. Assuming the image is real then the shape of the CPU infers a small or removed IGP, all the typical IGP dies are rectangular with 2/3rd's of the chip going to IGP so there isn't room for a full quadcore and full IGP at that size.

Also the GPU is maybe half size, as is referenced by the HBM2 stack next to it versus the two on Vega 64. A lot of the power savings from GPUs was in turning off the GDDR5 RAM, but as it has HBM2 it's already saving >20W power over mobile GPUs. Maybe 35W? So that combined with half it's size I would think the power savings aren't going to be that big from another "optimus" setup. Or the image could be a complete mockup in which case none of my post matters.

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