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DragonDaddyBear wrote:

Should I be mining eth with my 7950 so I can but a better card?

If you can make more than you're paying for the electricity, and you don't mind waiting for however long it takes, and you don't mind being restricted to vendors which accept Bitcoin, and you don't mind possibly coming away with nothing, then maybe? When I was eyeballing a 1080Ti I considering mining with it, but there's just too many unknowns and I didn't really want to get involved in all that.

Dang! Radeon RX Vega was actually at (or slightly below) MSRP the second week of November. Now it's double that. The mining bubble is insane.

Chrispy_ wrote:

ColeLT1 wrote:

If Nvidia is bad, then don't look at AMD. My $420 vega 56s can ebay for ~$800 now.

I know right? I'm seriously tempted to put my £430 (inc tax) Vega56 back on ebay to fund a 1080 and a second ski trip this winter. £750-850 simply because they're still desirable to the miners and supply is practically nil at the moment! From what I understand, the HBCC Cache is magic for mining and it's 50-100% faster than a 1070 for the same power draw.

A friend of mine ordered parts for a new PC on my recommendations last week and I found him a decent 1070Ti for £415. The miners seem to be avoiding the 1070Ti for some driver reason, perhaps Nvidia sabotaged it to give gamers a cardo and put more of their graphics cards in the hands of vocal gaming enthusiasts than AMD, who have practically vanished from the market. I can't even find a decent AMD gaming card for less than £300, whilst Nvidia's 3GB 1060 covers most people's needs in a readily-available £175+ package that the miners don't care about.

HBCC doesn't do anything for mining speed, even though some people have sworn by it. For the Vega 56 the most important thing to do is load Bios from a Vega 64 board, which removes the limits on the HBM2 memory clock. I have no problem running my Vega 56s with HBM2 @1100Mhz. Ethereum loves the bandwidth Vega can run 43MH. 1070s are 2nd at 32-33MH. Ethereum is currently the most profitable, but when XMR (cryptonight algo) climbs then Vega RULE at mining using the Cryptonight algo. Vegas are capable of nearly 2GH on cryptonight, 580s & 290s get around 750-800MH, but the 1070 only gets about 650-700MH (although I haven't really played with it that much).

1070TI is as good as the 1070 at mining, just not BETTER, limited by memory bandwidth, but with the increased price of ETH, all recent GPUs are profitable, it just at matter of how long to pay off...
Hell, even Hawaii based cards are selling like hot cakes on ebay because you can pay them off in about 2-3 months of mining at current ETH price.

DragonDaddyBear wrote:

Should I be mining eth with my 7950 so I can but a better card?

That's how I got started... bought a GTX 1070 (while waiting for Vega) and started mining with my two R9 290s that it replaced and I just kept buying more cards...trying to not buy too many without paying them off.

https://www.nicehash.com/profitability- ... rrency=USD

They say you can make about $70/month, but I don't use NiceHash. I mine solely Ethereum in a pool at nanopool.org NiceHash numbers are a little high for how much you can make per card, but maybe they pay higher since you can switch what you are mining using their software and pool.

I like the security of using my own wallet and mining to it via nanopool.org.

Kougar wrote:

CScottG wrote:

Oh, look at this one:

https://www.ebay.com/i/322908722600?chn=ps


-damn decent of "him" to offer it with free shipping.

You forgot to mention the current "BUY 3, GET 1 AT 5% OFF" promotion

Oh ****. Completely missed that.

.. put me down for 3 then.

...this is still news? At this point, those frustrated by the pricing situation should lay blame on the GPU manufacturers for poor supply. Whatever one thinks of cryptocurrency, it is obviously not going away so I don't see the situation much differently than that of DRAM. Relatively fixed supply plus rising demand equals high prices and shortages, that's all there is to it.

I've not seen prices this bad... A MSI GTX 1080 Armor OC that was going for $509 before Christmas (seen onsale a couple of times at below 500) is now like $849, if you can find it. That's just insane. If it gets much worse people will be buying new computers just to get a video card for a decent price. Heck, gaming laptops are starting to look cheap!

Ah, yes it looks like Ethereum mining profitability is back up to ~$140/month on an RX580 (26MH/s). That would explain a lot.

DPete27 wrote:

Ah, yes it looks like Ethereum mining profitability is back up to ~$140/month on an RX580 (26MH/s). That would explain a lot.

At four hundred and fifty dollars per card, you've got to mine for four months before you turn a profit, assuming that figure already accounts for energy costs.

I am looking to upgrade my 1060 6gb to a 1080 or 1080ti (1060 would upgrade my son's 960).. looked at newegg,ca this morning.. wow.. no 1080 under 770 $cdn,

Guess I'm waiting for next gen stuff to come out, luckily WoWS plays fine at 1440 with my current setup

NovusBogus wrote:

...this is still news? At this point, those frustrated by the pricing situation should lay blame on the GPU manufacturers for poor supply. Whatever one thinks of cryptocurrency, it is obviously not going away so I don't see the situation much differently than that of DRAM. Relatively fixed supply plus rising demand equals high prices and shortages, that's all there is to it.

I don't blame them. I can't imagine it's easy to account for a sudden tripling in demand (or more). I also disagree that it's "not going away". The bubble could pop at any given moment, or mining algorithms could suddenly change and make GPUs non-viable. This would leave them holding the bag on a huge amount of unsold inventory.

I'm tempted to stick my 1080Ti FE on eBay, if the profit is worth it after they take their cut.

The Egg wrote:

This would leave them holding the bag on a huge amount of unsold inventory.

It's also not just a matter of hitting the "GO" button the replicator a million more times: all things are made by other things in production & supply chain environments that you would need more.

So you're not just potentially left with a million ounces of "Earl Grey, Hot" that you have no idea how to sell.

No, in reality, you're also left with a bunch of baristas and cups plus you have trucks dumping unused tea, milk and sugar all over your floor for the next two quarters and you have no clue where you are going to put it all, much less actually use it.

---

I'm with you, I don't blame the GPU makers at all. Contrary to what was said DRAM is a essentially commodity item that is just about ubiquitous in computing products, and since they've been caught price fixing before (which, as I've explaining elsewhere, is actually expressed via supply-dampening) I'm sure that's occurring in that space again.

High-end GPUs? I mean, seriously? That's boutique. And saying that "cryptocurrency is obviously not going away" is besides-the-point because crypto-currency doesn't even require GPU mining: Ethereum, for instance, is openly talking about moving to PoS, and the whole space is very, very volatile. Why did GPUs suddenly do this again? Duh: look at the recent price movement! Eth is 3x what it was just one month ago, almost twice what it was 2 weeks ago.

Kretschmer wrote:

I'm tempted to stick my 1080Ti FE on eBay, if the profit is worth it after they take their cut.

Just do Craigslist. Lots of locals buying them up, too.

I wonder what the fallout of this is going to be on the PC gaming industry. There are a lot of high-powered cards that could eventually just be sitting around after/if the mining craze dies off.

DragonDaddyBear wrote:

Kretschmer wrote:

I wonder what the fallout of this is going to be on the PC gaming industry. There are a lot of high-powered cards that could eventually just be sitting around after/if the mining craze dies off.

People said "when the mining craze dies off" before the RX 500 series refresh and that still hasn't happened. I think the "if" you used is more appropriate now. Someone will introduce a new currency if/when interest in the current ones starts to wane (or if hardware boards get released, like they did with bitcoin), and prices will continue to stay high for these parts. By the time any cards wind up in the secondary market they'll be a generation or more out of date and they'll have been so overworked on mining, it'd be a crapshoot as to whether a used video card lasts you a year or burns out after a few weeks of gaming. And obviously there won't be any warranty on it.

I'm wondering more about the fallout in terms of overall installed base. It's going to effectively stagnate GPU performance because no one wants to pay the ridiculous prices for a GPU upgrade, so people will hold on to their existing cards for longer. Anyone looking to buy new will either have to pay far too much or look to the lower-end cards (1050ti, rx 560) which haven't been price-inflated as badly (but are still more expensive than they used to be). Don't expect mid-range Vega cards or any of the mid-range/high-end Volta cards to be affordable, either; it will just be a repeat of the Vega 56/64 launch.

Developers might just target the current mid-range and stay there for a while.

(Is this going to be the point where it becomes rational to "pre-order" a new GPU prior to launch, to reserve one at normal pricing? Or will those prices be artificially inflated as well?)

deruberhanyok wrote:

People said "when the mining craze dies off" before the RX 500 series refresh and that still hasn't happened.

But that isn't precisely true when generally applied to the overall situation.

Right after thanksgiving, I gave serious thought towards whether or not I should get a 1070 to go with my new i7-8700k.

I decided against it, because at $450 or so, I wasn't sure it was worth it.

I just looked now on Newegg: the only ones that are available appear to be LITERALLY DOUBLE THAT: 900 USD.

So, while the craze hasn't "died off", it still has tremendous volatility.

This is not theory, I am telling you about my own lying eyes.

Sigh. I sorely need a 1080 / 1080 Ti equivalent and while prices seemed almost reasonable a month or so ago...I guess I'm waiting again. Perhaps Volta's new spin will be out before prices are less volatile.

deruberhanyok wrote:

Don't expect mid-range Vega cards or any of the mid-range/high-end Volta cards to be affordable, either; it will just be a repeat of the Vega 56/64 launch.

That's what I'm afraid of, if you don't get lucky and grab one before the launch day sell out you might as well give up. Honestly, what motivation does the GPU manufactures have to make newer cards when the can sell everyone of the current gen cards at whatever price they want.

Waco wrote:

Sigh. I sorely need a 1080 / 1080 Ti equivalent and while prices seemed almost reasonable a month or so ago...I guess I'm waiting again. Perhaps Volta's new spin will be out before prices are less volatile.

Don't worry, you can actually find some available for the (un)reasonable cost of less than their inferior tier.

Sure, this seems to have happened in less than two weeks, certainly less than a month anyway, but what do you mean by "volatile"? Cryptocurrency was invented in 2009, so I don't know why they didn't triple/guadruple the production of a market segment (discrete graphics) that peaked in the previous century years ago!

Ignorance, I guess.

This is all their fault: It's totally foreseeable that the first two week after the Holiday Season are going to experience such massive demand.

etc....



---

to make it clear, that's all sarcasm. I am as cheesed as you are that the same $300 that bought me a 970 *THREE YEARS AGO* can't actually buy me anything better now: The 1060 is only comparable.

A 1070 is 50% better but (when I looked) it cost 50% more for a ~50% improvement. Even when I looked, a 1080 looked good because it was roughly 100% more for 100% more performance: If am I going to buy one of these things at all, the greater performance scales linearly with the higher price, well, why not?

Anyway, like you said, I guess I'm waiting again.

Kougar wrote:

Krogoth wrote:

Wait until the crypto-currency market undergoes its long overdue "correction" not just the minor "hic-ups" of 2017 you mind.

People have been saying this for 9 years. But I think you are betting against human nature.

People are greedy, and as long as there is potential profit there will be interest. Too many people are invested in it, and even after the bubble inevitably bursts cypto mining won't magically go away. Even if one cyptocoin imploded there are plenty more, and will always be more after them.

Case in point: http://www.businessinsider.com/new-york ... ity-2018-1

The massive impending correction will burn so many people that overwhelming majority of miners will not bother again. Almost all of the low-hanging fruit is gone from the major currencies.

You can't blame GPU makers, and you can't blame the average Joe trying to make extra money with his card. All anger/frustration should be directed at the cryptocurrency creators who artificially and intentionally force the use of GPUs.

Miners have entered the fray at a time when the cost of new fabs is simply staggering, AND the ones we already have are strained to the limit.

And memory chips are already in high demand thanks to cell phones and servers, so they gladly welcome a rise in prices. The memory chips AND GPUs are in short supply, which means...

It's going be be several more years until prices stabilize. I had hopes after the short-term drop around Thanksgiving, but that was only for a moment. And prices prior to that were crap for almost a year!

I had presumed that people would stop buying mining cards in mass quantities after they filled their homes, but people are just opening data centers (or renting other people's cards) because the payoff is so good. And every time one currency hits a wall, three more will take it's place.

THERE WILL BE A PEAK MARKET FOR MINING, BUT IT'S NOT CLEAR HOW HIGH IT WILL GO.

...So grab your favorite cards when they are low, because it's going to be pretty rare.

At least Coffee Lake has finally reached demand!

I should probably just put tons of money in Nvidia stock. AMD is still too volatile, because they price the Vega cards too low to make any money.

defaultuser wrote:

It's going be be several more years until prices stabilize. I had hopes after the short-term drop around Thanksgiving, but that was only for a moment. And prices prior to that were crap for almost a year!

There are (previously dead) coins for which the creator has already plead out for fraud that have "doubled in value" in just the last week (ironically the same week he was originally supposed to be sentenced in).

Several more years?

This thing where publicly traded American companies are now blatantly pumping real-world stock prices via empty name-changes and name-drops of "BLOCKCHAIN"?

Several more years?

Bro, nemesis is oncoming like #!@^ freight-train.

GET OFF THE TRACKS.

Meanwhile, in reality, shipments of discrete graphics are down, YoY, since before even 3dfx imploded.

Hatch, these eggs? Are you sure they are even in the basket?

I wish all mining would just crash into the dirt.

Kretschmer wrote:

I'm tempted to stick my 1080Ti FE on eBay, if the profit is worth it after they take their cut.

I sold all of my video cards on eBay due to the mining craze. The last 1080ti I sold went for double what I paid for it even after eBay and paypal fees. It sold within 10 minutes of listing.

I rarely game now days, so I felt OK being naked and unable to play anything AAA with the settings cranked up with the kind of money I got out of it. I slapped a 1050 in for the time being.

I kind of laugh because at this point, I'm making more money than the miners!

toki wrote:

I wish all mining would just crash into the dirt.

Amen. It's useless, wasted energy, enough to power Denmark by some accounts.

Glorious wrote:

defaultuser wrote:

It's going be be several more years until prices stabilize. I had hopes after the short-term drop around Thanksgiving, but that was only for a moment. And prices prior to that were crap for almost a year!

There are (previously dead) coins for which the creator has already plead out for fraud that have "doubled in value" in just the last week (ironically the same week he was originally supposed to be sentenced in).

Several more years?

This thing where publicly traded American companies are now blatantly pumping real-world stock prices via empty name-changes and name-drops of "BLOCKCHAIN"?

Several more years?

Bro, nemesis is oncoming like #!@^ freight-train.

GET OFF THE TRACKS.

Meanwhile, in reality, shipments of discrete graphics are down, YoY, since before even 3dfx imploded.

Hatch, these eggs? Are you sure they are even in the basket?

Yup. Those perpetually falling discrete graphics card shipments have finally started rising again.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12107/q3 ... -year-high



The spikes in retail card demand (month-to-month) are incredibly unstable, but there's clearly more demand than can be met.

I was with you and thought miners were a complete joke, until the last year of zero availability OF GDDR5 NVIDIA CARDS. A GPU maker that has SEVERAL TIMES the production capacity of AMD couldn't keep up with miner demand for the entire year.

And if we haven't sated demand after a year, expect another year or two at the very least. Despite shipping a few million cards more than last year, there's lots of room for that graph to grow.

I'm just going to keep playing old games that won't tax my video card.

I wonder how much this has hurt the PC game market and pushed people to consoles. When you can buy a PS4 and 10 AAA games for less than the price of one component of a gaming PC, it's a hard proposition to justify.

Yeah, this makes me more-and-more likely to bite on a GTX 1060 6GB the next time the prices fall below the stratosphere. There's no rush to release desktop Volta yet, and still no signs of life from the GDDR6 camp, other than promises of May-ish.

just brew it! wrote:

Almost makes you wonder if investing in GPUs is more lucrative than investing in cryptocurrencies.

It certainly has a more tangible ROI

Kougar wrote:

Krogoth wrote:

Wait until the crypto-currency market undergoes its long overdue "correction" not just the minor "hic-ups" of 2017 you mind.

People have been saying this for 9 years. But I think you are betting against human nature.

People are greedy, and as long as there is potential profit there will be interest. Too many people are invested in it, and even after the bubble inevitably bursts cypto mining won't magically go away. Even if one cyptocoin imploded there are plenty more, and will always be more after them.

Case in point: http://www.businessinsider.com/new-york ... ity-2018-1

Very few things "go away" completely (see the nastiest parts of US politics in 2017). The crypto burst we're waiting for won't be the death of the movement, but it will probably burn enough people to drive it (back) into obscurity.