Personal computing discussed

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The Egg
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Re: Video card prices

Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:36 am

just brew it! wrote:
The Egg wrote:
If ASICs were allowed back into the fray, they'd probably come in at lower prices than a couple $1400 cards, and allow the userbase to grow again

See above. The userbase is still growing at a healthy rate, otherwise video card availability and pricing would've returned to normal already!

I disagree. When cards are $1400, the userbase is not growing. The only people buying those cards are already hardcore miners.


techguy wrote:
No offense but, are you 12? Because the world doesn't work like this.
Gee guys, if we just go and tell the bad people to stop doing this thing we don't like then they'll cut it out!

I know enough about the world to foresee that I'd probably get alot of resistance, though I don't completely understand why. To be clear, I don't expect this to work, I just think it's worth trying from an analytical perspective. There are no drawbacks to asking. However small the chances of success (whether it's 1.13% or 0.0013%), it's still greater than 0.00% of doing nothing.

Complaining in a forum is 0.00%, and sitting silently is 0.00%. So what's your better suggestion?
 
jmc2
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Re: Video card prices

Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:10 pm

Pville_Piper wrote:
The prices and availability of Nvidia on Newegg is total crap... It seems like the best value is the AORUS GeForce GTX 1070 Gaming Box for $599...


Well, it's not a "game" card but I was just able to order a Radeon 460 4Gig
from the XFX store for $99. (From Newegg).
It at least got my resolution above the 1000x1200(?) from my 6950 on HDMI.
The other outputs from this card are not DVI but mini displayport. Converters
not cheap so went for the new card.

Everywhere I looked there was no listing for the HDMI level on my 4870.
(came with a converter plug Dual DVI to HDMI)
Ordered a new Dual DVI to HDMI plug. Still NO HDMI level info but it did say
it would handle 4k output so fingers crossed that I'll finally get the max 1440p out of the card.
 
just brew it!
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Re: Video card prices

Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:27 pm

The Egg wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
The Egg wrote:
If ASICs were allowed back into the fray, they'd probably come in at lower prices than a couple $1400 cards, and allow the userbase to grow again

See above. The userbase is still growing at a healthy rate, otherwise video card availability and pricing would've returned to normal already!

I disagree. When cards are $1400, the userbase is not growing. The only people buying those cards are already hardcore miners.

And you're basing this claim on what evidence, aside from the fact that it supports your belief that the userbase has stopped growing? That's circular logic.

If anything, all the hype and the massive runup in cryptocurrency valuations is probably attracting more people than ever before, and that's why the video card situation has gotten so bad.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Captain Ned
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Re: Video card prices

Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:52 pm

A quick primer on why liquidity issues matter so much to crypto.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescop ... of-bitcoin
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Kougar
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Re: Video card prices

Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:21 pm

I've said before that I know people that just began mining for the first time this month. And when even 50+ parents are getting involved you know it is still expanding. :lol:

Captain Ned, I do believe that article was written before Bitcoin Cash was created. I have no idea when Bitcoin Gold was created. Even Ethereum has been split, really confusing.

Speaking of gold, looks like Australia and Venezuela are planning to launch gold-backed crypto-currencies. Things might get even more crazy after all.
 
The Egg
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Re: Video card prices

Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:36 pm

just brew it! wrote:
The Egg wrote:
just brew it! wrote:
See above. The userbase is still growing at a healthy rate, otherwise video card availability and pricing would've returned to normal already!

I disagree. When cards are $1400, the userbase is not growing. The only people buying those cards are already hardcore miners.

And you're basing this claim on what evidence, aside from the fact that it supports your belief that the userbase has stopped growing? That's circular logic.

If anything, all the hype and the massive runup in cryptocurrency valuations is probably attracting more people than ever before, and that's why the video card situation has gotten so bad.

Do I need evidence to show that sky-high prices and a product being sold-out/unavailable everywhere will hinder new user growth dependent on said product? Sure, you might have a few lunatics with lots of money to throw at something because they heard all the hype, but to that type of person, the difference between buying a ridiculously expensive GPU and a similarly expensive ASIC is inconsequential. So we're back to there being no difference between GPUs and ASICs at this point.

Yes, I'll concede that using GPUs was largely beneficial to increasing their userbase initially, but they've since exhausted that benefit.
 
gargar
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Re: Video card prices

Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:13 pm

Redocbew wrote:
gargar wrote:
I've had enough. Bought Xbox One X last week. This maddness is going on for too long. And RAM isn't cheap as well.

What a bad time for PC gaming.


And you wrote one of your 8 posts in the past 13 years to say it. :o

Yeah, it's nuts. Fortunately all the games I play still behave fine on the hardware I have, but I'd probably do the same otherwise.


What can I say, I don't post much :)
 
cynan
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Re: Video card prices

Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:20 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
A quick primer on why liquidity issues matter so much to crypto.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescop ... of-bitcoin


The designers of Bitcoin seem to have assumed that velocity would rise to accommodate settlement needs when supply is restricted


I think that's giving them too much credit. If they did think that far, then they would have made mining contingent on immediate verification (ie, it only counts if it is immediately verifiable through some sort of peer-to-peer connection).

It's really too bad that mining hash functions can't somehow be converted to perform some useful output such as folding@home. At least then GPU availability fiasco-victims could take solace in that at least it was for a noble cause.
 
Glorious
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Re: Video card prices

Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:28 am

Kougar wrote:
My Vega RX 64 for some strange reason goes up to 1.6Ghz and GPU utilization is through the roof, while my private youtube videos (no subscribers and a few views) barely make a hit. Coincidence? I think not. A week ago the same popular videos barely utillize my GPU.


That's a bit unusual, as that article (and everything else I've seen) is about the coinhive javascipt miner, which doesn't utilize the GPU. CryptoNight (and thus Monero) doesn't have such a huge difference between GPU and CPU anyway.

The Egg wrote:
Here's where I'm going with this: Someone (ideally a group of people) ought to appeal to those in charge of the most problematic currencies, and make them aware of the damage they're causing to the GPU and gaming industries.


hahahhahahaha

The Egg wrote:
They also need to be made aware of how their intent behind making currencies ASIC-resistant has completely and utterly failed (as proven by the current cost of GPUs, and complete destruction of their supply).


Uh... But It hasn't failed, it's worked too well: If ASICs were more feasible for the newer PoWs that were intended to be ASIC-resistant, we wouldn't have this GPU price problem. :wink:

The Egg wrote:
I know. And now that "widely available consumer hardware" is no longer widely available, and prices are in the stratosphere, meaning the average person can no longer participate on an even footing. It's no different than if they were using ASICs, except for the unintended side-effect of destroying the GPU and PC gaming industry.


It's still way more decentralized than bitmain, as JBI said. They've achieved their goal.

I could buy a 1070 for 1k USD or whatever. I won't, but it's getting to the point where the only real vendor of miners (the aforementioned bitmain) essentially isn't even selling the newest ones publicly anymore: they are using them to mine themselves! They obviously are making a ton, because they are now a non-trivial portion of TSMC's production so we see it in disclosures, but yet they are rarely available and when they are they are sold in excruciating small batches (and for BCH, just to be even more weird).

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the miners they do sell are the binned ones that need higher voltage.

The Egg wrote:
I disagree. When cards are $1400, the userbase is not growing. The only people buying those cards are already hardcore miners.


First off, this just happened suddenly like 3 weeks ago.

Second off, look, you're just wrong, because I've seen people who say they've never mined before posting stacks of 1070s etc... There are lots and lots of indications like that, all over place. There are also lots of eth miners who didn't mine just 2 months ago who are mining again now, sometimes buying additional cards to do it.

Now, maybe they are all lying ( :roll: ), but why would they? I mean, even I could buy a new 1070 from Newegg for 1k USD and be mining by the end of this week. That's completely feasible.

Third off, it isn't like other non-ASIC resistant coins: If I want to buy an antminer S9, I have to spend like 4-8 thousand on a disreputable retailer and wait months. Or get BCH and buy one new from bitmain directly and wait months (at best!).

The ROI (and I am being ridiculously optimistic here, the concept is bankrupt but I'm at least comparing like-to-like the way perspective miners would) is 12 months for the 1070 and eth, but closer to 18-30 months for the S9 and btc.

It's just not comparable.

Kougar wrote:
Speaking of gold, looks like Australia and Venezuela are planning to launch gold-backed crypto-currencies. Things might get even more crazy after all.


Venezuela is an absolute basket case, and a government-owned (not even federal, but state!) but independent mint (which makes all sort of collectibles for retail sale) really isn't "Australia" either.

The Egg wrote:
Do I need evidence to show that sky-high prices and a product being sold-out/unavailable everywhere will hinder new user growth dependent on said product? Sure, you might have a few lunatics with lots of money to throw at something because they heard all the hype, but to that type of person, the difference between buying a ridiculously expensive GPU and a similarly expensive ASIC is inconsequential. So we're back to there being no difference between GPUs and ASICs at this point.


This doesn't make any sense for multiple reasons.

First off, they are sold out because people are buying them. Individuals, not companies. I mean, this is bluntly backwards, prices increase because DEMAND increases. As a simplification, the instantaneous price of a unit has nothing to do with the number of units: if I have a shop selling ten widgets, I have shop telling ten widgets regardless of price. There aren't, instantaneously, more widgets available if I price them at 1 dollar versus a million dollars.

Yes, yes, this is complicated because individuals are buying things by the cart, but even then, those are all miners! What has happened is that gamers like me are priced out, to be replaced virtually entirely by miners who are willing to pay 3x-4x as much. This means, even if not even close to 1:1, that we virtually certainly must have more miners now.

Second off, as I just said above, different use = different users. Gaming users aren't growing, sure. Mining users, yes.

Third off, to a miner, yes, the difference is huge. The currencies involved are completely different, so there are entirely different speculative elements, especially since GPUs can potentially do a variety of different PoWs, ASIC can only ever do one. The amounts are different: $1500 is not $4000(the low end price for a viable SHA256 miner), such a difference *is* consequential. The delay is different, you can get a 1070 within a week. A btc miner? LOL(and they'll make you prepay, ASIC miner sales shenanigans are persistant). And, finally, the commodity is different: if the miner becomes uneconomical, it's junk. A 1070 has a dual-use which means I could recover ~300 USD in value for it, even if all crypto-currencies go uneconomical.

cynan wrote:
I think that's giving them too much credit. If they did think that far, then they would have made mining contingent on immediate verification (ie, it only counts if it is immediately verifiable through some sort of peer-to-peer connection).


That article is unbelievably awful and wrong, but Captain Ned is right that liquidity is a massive problem in the crypto world.

To start with, the block reward is what subsidizes mining, which the article COMPLETELY FAILS TO MENTION. That alone makes it worthless.

That's just the start with the litany of utterly wrong and idiotic things in it, though.
 
southrncomfortjm
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Re: Video card prices

Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:08 pm

Now that Nicehash Miner doesn't seem to be playing nicely with Radeon cards (someone correct me if I'm wrong), what's the easiest way to get mining on a Radeon?
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DancinJack
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Re: Video card prices

Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:16 pm

southrncomfortjm wrote:
Now that Nicehash Miner doesn't seem to be playing nicely with Radeon cards (someone correct me if I'm wrong), what's the easiest way to get mining on a Radeon?

Take out a second mortgage, buy 10 RX 64's, spend extra hundreds on your power bill, and then get all your profits stolen from one of the idiot exchanges. Easy peasy.
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southrncomfortjm
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Re: Video card prices

Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:41 pm

DancinJack wrote:
southrncomfortjm wrote:
Now that Nicehash Miner doesn't seem to be playing nicely with Radeon cards (someone correct me if I'm wrong), what's the easiest way to get mining on a Radeon?

Take out a second mortgage, buy 10 RX 64's, spend extra hundreds on your power bill, and then get all your profits stolen from one of the idiot exchanges. Easy peasy.


I have a 480 and just want to use that, I just don't know what program to use at this point. Nicehash miner made it really easy.
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Convert
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Re: Video card prices

Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:50 pm

DancinJack wrote:
southrncomfortjm wrote:
Now that Nicehash Miner doesn't seem to be playing nicely with Radeon cards (someone correct me if I'm wrong), what's the easiest way to get mining on a Radeon?

Take out a second mortgage, buy 10 RX 64's, spend extra hundreds on your power bill, and then get all your profits stolen from one of the idiot exchanges. Easy peasy.

The good news is those RX 64's appreciated in value, so long as ebay and paypal fees don't eat it away too much, you may have enough to pay off that mortgage :lol:
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--k
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Re: Video card prices

Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:50 pm

Mining is the death of gaming rigs as we know it.
 
meerkt
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Re: Video card prices

Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:45 pm

Maybe with increased ASIC production graphics cards would get a break:
https://cointelegraph.com/news/samsung- ... -for-china
 
Redocbew
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Re: Video card prices

Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:12 pm

I don't see why it would. I'm not sure if that's even news. If they're designing their own ASICs, then Bitmain has to get their hardware made somewhere, no?
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Kougar
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Re: Video card prices

Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:17 am

Redocbew wrote:
I don't see why it would. I'm not sure if that's even news. If they're designing their own ASICs, then Bitmain has to get their hardware made somewhere, no?


It's definitely news. It means TSMC doesn't have enough capacity left to handle Bitmain's orders.

Remember this? In Q3 Bitmain was spending $350-400 million on TSMC business. TSMC decided to not clarify for the Q4 earnings, but did say the number had "grown" from the previous quarter. Bitmain has placed an "urgent" order for 100K 12nm chips this quarter from TSMC. And now word breaks that Samsung is producing ASIC chips in addition to TSMC? The sheer amount of money Bitmain is spending on long term projects is jaw-dropping. Obviously they don't expect crypto to be ending any time soon when throwing around half a billion dollars in Q1 on chip orders from Samsung and TSMC both.

With TSMC alone churning out 100K ASIC chips this quarter and Samsung doing the same it may finally let some pressure off GPUs. Hopefully.
 
Redocbew
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Re: Video card prices

Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:01 am

Ok, but why would one megafarm ramping up production change the suitability of using ASICs vs GPUs? Why would it stop people from buying GPUs for mining? A bunch more ASICs floating around isn't going to change that. That's a property of the work done when mining a particular ICO, and unless I missed something these ASICs aren't being released into the market for anyone to buy they're being made and shipped to a specific customer.

If the story was "Bitmain develops custom ASIC for mining Ethereum, and it doesn't suck", then I could see how that might change things, but that's not what we're talking about.
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freebird
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Re: Video card prices

Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:30 am

southrncomfortjm wrote:
Now that Nicehash Miner doesn't seem to be playing nicely with Radeon cards (someone correct me if I'm wrong), what's the easiest way to get mining on a Radeon?

Claymore v10.2 miner is great for mining ethereum and a 2nd coin if you want, but I find much easier and profitable to just mine ethereum.

For configuring the miner with nanopool.org:
https://eth.nanopool.org/help#exchange
 
derFunkenstein
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Re: Video card prices

Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:09 pm

Glorious wrote:
I'm desperate enough for a new video card this year that I'm willing to start waving my arms around, yes.

http://www.nowinstock.net/computers/videocards/
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Kougar
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Re: Video card prices

Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:11 pm

Redocbew wrote:
Ok, but why would one megafarm ramping up production change the suitability of using ASICs vs GPUs?


I don't have a clue how Bitmain's ASICs compare currently, but one of the main issues with Ethereum in particular was fast memory bandwidth. My assumption is that if they are ordering so many chips then they have a working design. Given how power inefficient GPUs are at this, even a less powerful ASIC that sips power and can be spammed into a board would probably start to displace GPUs.

AMD has stated they are ramping up GPU production, but the limiting factor is GDDR5/HBM and there isn't enough to go around.
 
Waco
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Re: Video card prices

Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:37 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
Glorious wrote:
I'm desperate enough for a new video card this year that I'm willing to start waving my arms around, yes.

http://www.nowinstock.net/computers/videocards/

Wow. I didn't realize it was *quite* that bad...but damn. Just damn.
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Redocbew
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Re: Video card prices

Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:53 pm

Kougar wrote:
My assumption is that if they are ordering so many chips then they have a working design.


My understanding is that it's not impossible to build an ASIC that runs scrypt or some other algorithm commonly called "ASIC resistant", but just that it'll be prohibitively expensive to do so, and I don't see any indication here that's what they're doing anyway. GPUs are technically ASICs also, but they're just not tailored to one specific algorithm or compute problem(unless you count pushing pixels as a compute problem). That doesn't mean much for gamers and other end users browsing Amazon or Newegg looking for a GPU though.
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PrincipalSkinner
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Re: Video card prices

Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:04 pm

Redocbew wrote:
Kougar wrote:
My assumption is that if they are ordering so many chips then they have a working design.


My understanding is that it's not impossible to build an ASIC that runs scrypt or some other algorithm commonly called "ASIC resistant", but just that it'll be prohibitively expensive to do so, and I don't see any indication here that's what they're doing anyway. GPUs are technically ASICs also, but they're just not tailored to one specific algorithm or compute problem(unless you count pushing pixels as a compute problem). That doesn't mean much for gamers and other end users browsing Amazon or Newegg looking for a GPU though.


There already are scrypt ASIC miners.
https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/lit ... -hardware/
I'm pretty sure there will be ETH ASIC miners too in the near future. My interpretation is that ASIC resistant means it takes a significant effort to make it but it's not impossible.
 
just brew it!
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Re: Video card prices

Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:10 pm

AFAIK "ASIC resistant" means "algorithm needs so much RAM that you might as well just buy a GPU". With the spike in GPU prices we may yet see a shift back to ASICs; but RAM is pretty expensive these days too.
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Shinare
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Re: Video card prices

Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:17 pm

I may be heckled for saying this, but I wish the whole cryptocurrency world would implode.
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DancinJack
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Re: Video card prices

Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:21 pm

Shinare wrote:
I may be heckled for saying this, but I wish the whole cryptocurrency world would implode.

Nah dude. You're a hero.
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Re: Video card prices

Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:26 pm

Shinare wrote:
I may be heckled for saying this, but I wish the whole cryptocurrency world would implode.


YOU WILL BE FETED.
 
Redocbew
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Re: Video card prices

Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:20 pm

Shinare wrote:
I may be heckled for saying this, but I wish the whole cryptocurrency world would implode.


Knock it off.

Seriously, what the hell. :P
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Re: Video card prices

Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:00 pm

It's below nine thousand!
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