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Airmantharp
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:19 pm

My opinion on this remains split, depending on whether the actual non-public terms require participants to have their gaming brands that host Nvidia GPUs separate from those that host AMD GPUs, or if they're only allowed to have one gaming brand which consequently will only host Nvidia GPUs.

The language seems to support the latter, but the latter seems to make less sense: what would a non-gaming GPU brand look like? It's also the interpretation that appears anti-competitive, in that participants wouldn't be able to market non-Nvidia GPUs as 'gaming' GPUs even when that's clearly what they are, and thus more risky in terms of running afoul of established legal interpretations and potentially inviting regulatory intrusion.

The former interpretation makes the most sense simply because it's a means of enforcing consistency of branding and coordination of marketing.
 
RtFusion
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:18 am

Been more of a lurker for several years on the site, rarely post in the forums ... so hello!

Anyway, I have been looking at the AMD subreddit and it seems Gigabyte, ASUS, and MSI are detaching their gaming brands (Auros, ROG, and Gaming-X respectively) from any Radeon cards. Newegg Canada still lists, for example, ROG Stris RX 580 but the US Counterpart does not:

https://www.newegg.ca/Product/ProductLi ... isNodeId=1

https://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductL ... isNodeId=1

Tried to add ROG for Newegg US, only got laptops:

https://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductL ... isNodeId=1

Although, at least for now, Asus still has the RS 580 under their ROG branding on it's site:

https://www.asus.com/us/Graphics-Cards/ ... -Products/
https://www.asus.com/ca-en/Graphics-Car ... -Products/

Not sure if it just hype on that specific thread, but the more I read into this from some other articles covering GPP (or the lack thereof), the more I don't like it.
 
Welch
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:04 am

Interesting....

So using the Archive.org (See Waybackmachine).... you can see the additional card options under that Asus 580.


Here is the same card from back in time, you'll see a couple AMD 580 cards to choose from.
https://web.archive.org/web/20171101122 ... 6814126199

Here is the ROG version chosen
https://web.archive.org/web/20170926072 ... 6814126193

Not sure whether this is just a matter of availability of those cards not being good enough for Newegg to keep, but it doesn't seem likely as AMD isn't releasing a successor this year. ALSO, the fact that Newegg has historically kept VERY, and I mean VEEEEERY old inventory item posts up and simply listed them as not in stock and that it might not come back in stock. So if it was a matter of an item they just weren't going to stock anymore, we would still see the page for the ROG cards as out of stock not this........

http://https//www.newegg.com/Product/Pr ... 6814126193

Damnit, I hate to be a conspiracy type person, but this might end up amounting to something.... /sigh. The last damn thing this market needs is another greedy, anti-competitive company trying to deceptively steer the market. I hope there is a good explanation for all of that because it does look shady and in line with some of the claims again Nvidia and their GPP.
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RtFusion
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:56 pm

Hmm,

Looks like in that same Reddit thread, MSi and Gigabyte (on the US sites) removed Gaming-X and Auros branding from the Radeon cards.

They still (for now) exist on Canada's site for MSI and Gigabyte.

UPDATE 2 ** (credit goes to zeroyon04 for this)



MSI's global website is missing the GAMING branding for RX 580s,570s, and 560s.



https://imgur.com/a/AVmem

https://www.msi.com/Graphics-cards/

MSI's US only website does still have GAMING branded RX 580s, 570s, and 560s but the number of retailers for these GAMING cards are 2 at most.



https://us.msi.com/Graphics-cards/



UPDATE 3 **



GIGABYTE's website has also removed AORUS branding from AMD cards and ironically switched it with GAMING, which is what MSI typically uses. http://www.gigabyte.fi/Graphics-Card/AMD-Series

https://imgur.com/a/AVmem



Once again, the US website does still have the gaming branding

https://www.gigabyte.com/us/Graphics-Card/AMD-Series
 
Welch
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:11 pm

Hmmm, yeah I noticed that too. I've been looking at RX 580 cards for the past 2 months or so just to track the prices. The Aourus card specifically was one that constantly popped up. That seems to unlikely to have all of those brands remove those specific cards, but from a retailers site too? I'm not sure what to make of it, but I have a feeling that between the CTS dealio and this GPP stuff, that Nvidia is throwing as much crap as AMD as possible to try and kill their gaining market share.
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Airmantharp
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:45 am

Welch wrote:
Hmmm, yeah I noticed that too. I've been looking at RX 580 cards for the past 2 months or so just to track the prices. The Aourus card specifically was one that constantly popped up. That seems to unlikely to have all of those brands remove those specific cards, but from a retailers site too? I'm not sure what to make of it, but I have a feeling that between the CTS dealio and this GPP stuff, that Nvidia is throwing as much crap as AMD as possible to try and kill their gaining market share.


AMD doesn't need any help killing their own marketshare ;)
 
Welch
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:53 pm

Airmantharp wrote:
Welch wrote:
Hmmm, yeah I noticed that too. I've been looking at RX 580 cards for the past 2 months or so just to track the prices. The Aourus card specifically was one that constantly popped up. That seems to unlikely to have all of those brands remove those specific cards, but from a retailers site too? I'm not sure what to make of it, but I have a feeling that between the CTS dealio and this GPP stuff, that Nvidia is throwing as much crap as AMD as possible to try and kill their gaining market share.


AMD doesn't need any help killing their own marketshare ;)


Well they gained market share this last go around... so there is that. I think their market share in this GPU space is just a bubble thanks to crypto currency, so I want give them a bunch of credit for gaining share until we see where things land. They legitimately are kicking ass in the CPU market share space though, as was recently shown.
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Airmantharp
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:24 pm

Welch wrote:
Well they gained market share this last go around... so there is that. I think their market share in this GPU space is just a bubble thanks to crypto currency, so I want give them a bunch of credit for gaining share until we see where things land. They legitimately are kicking ass in the CPU market share space though, as was recently shown.


I don't really see them gaining any GPU market share; I don't really count mining, as that could go bust tomorrow, with my concept of 'market share' being based on the idea that people are likely to buy what they already have, and miners could give a rats. AMD is not gaining gaming or compute market share outside of mining, and that's largely due to their own engineering decisions.

In the CPU space, they're now at least doing okay. I'd prefer they do better, and if they were I'd probably own a Ryzen CPU myself, but they've at least moved their performance meter to the current decade and that's a start.

Their really only interesting part right now is Threadripper. It remains to be seen if AMD can compete in the server market (I don't mean in terms of technology but in terms of actually selling units). I think the next version of their arch will be far more disruptive to the market if Intel doesn't pull another IPC hat out of their bag, and I give that a solid 50/50. And I do hate betting against Intel making technology improvements.
 
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:56 pm

ludi wrote:
I'm so old, I not only remember when Google wasn't evil; I remember when Nvidia wasn't evil.


Nah. nVidia was pretty well always evil. The minute they bought out 3dfx, they were evil.
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Welch
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:47 am

Airmantharp wrote:
Welch wrote:
Well they gained market share this last go around... so there is that. I think their market share in this GPU space is just a bubble thanks to crypto currency, so I want give them a bunch of credit for gaining share until we see where things land. They legitimately are kicking ass in the CPU market share space though, as was recently shown.


I don't really see them gaining any GPU market share; I don't really count mining, as that could go bust tomorrow, with my concept of 'market share' being based on the idea that people are likely to buy what they already have, and miners could give a rats. AMD is not gaining gaming or compute market share outside of mining, and that's largely due to their own engineering decisions.

In the CPU space, they're now at least doing okay. I'd prefer they do better, and if they were I'd probably own a Ryzen CPU myself, but they've at least moved their performance meter to the current decade and that's a start.

Their really only interesting part right now is Threadripper. It remains to be seen if AMD can compete in the server market (I don't mean in terms of technology but in terms of actually selling units). I think the next version of their arch will be far more disruptive to the market if Intel doesn't pull another IPC hat out of their bag, and I give that a solid 50/50. And I do hate betting against Intel making technology improvements.


https://techpinions.com/amd-gains-big-i ... ency/52361

They did gain, but as you said you don't want to count that. I'll count it for now but as I also said, I don't think it will sustain so it's a nice way to line their coffers a bit, but it's a bubble. It still is what it is.

As far as CPUs, yeah unfortunately Ryzen was a damn good option if you were OK with being an early adopter for about 4 or so months. I still think it has its merits over Intel's offerings (obviously, I built 2 rigs in the last few months). Price/performance I think it still takes the cake, but by a much smaller margin than on it's rocky release. If the new 2700x is as good as reports are showing, and they release a good followup to a 2800x and the prices are all right, they may win more desktop share. With all of the prices of parts being so stupid high, we probably wont even remotely see the growth that we should though.

Threadripper is for sure badass if you need that sort of CPU HP/Memory Bandwidth and PCI-E lanes. Threadripper 2xxx should be a grandslam if the RAM and latency timings are improved as much as been leaked/shown on the new Ryzen+ stuff. That platform (HEDT) stands to benefit the most from those gains for sure.
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Airmantharp
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:12 am

The R7's definitely had me wanting to do an AMD build- but my main performance usage is gaming, and my money was better spend on my 8700k and it's not like it'd exactly be slow for anything else ;).

But Threadripper? That's unique. My challenge for my workloads is that it'd still not be as fast for gaming and it'd be significantly more expensive, and the challenge in the datacenter is that latency issue you mention in terms of database usage etc. But for raw horsepower/$ assuming you're not limited by single-core performance is amazing. Wish I had a reason to!
 
RtFusion
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:28 am

Yikes, on MSI's Canada site, when I go to Products Drop-Down Menu --> Graphics Cards section --> Select AMD GPUs, only nVidia cards appear.

"https://ca.msi.com/Graphics-cards/#?tag=Radeon%3Csup%3ETM%3C%2Fsup%3E-RX-Vega%3Csup%3E64%3C%2Fsup%3E"

Note the tags in the URL.

I have to manually check the boxes on the left-hand panel to see any AMD GPUs. Maybe it looks like some programming error, but in the light of MSI's marketing team sayingstuff like this is highly suspect.
 
Airmantharp
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:02 pm

It's likely an artifact of their product-line realignment.

I'm still waiting to see if new gaming brands are developed for AMD products in order to comply with Nvidia's desire for separation in the retail space.

Of course, AMD actually has to ship enough product in quantity for prices to actually drop to the point that their GPUs are worth purchasing in the first place...
 
NovusBogus
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:56 pm

Maybe they can just drop the pretense and rebrand the AMD cards for mining. Asus Empire of Coin, Gigabyte Computepunk, MSI Hashzilla, that sort of thing.
 
Airmantharp
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:18 pm

NovusBogus wrote:
Maybe they can just drop the pretense and rebrand the AMD cards for mining. Asus Empire of Coin, Gigabyte Computepunk, MSI Hashzilla, that sort of thing.


I even like your names... lol
 
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:15 pm

It's amusing watching the fallout from this, but I bet the rage is short-lived. Hopefully Nvidia learns a lesson, but I doubt they will.
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:12 pm

Waco wrote:
It's amusing watching the fallout from this, but I bet the rage is short-lived. Hopefully Nvidia learns a lesson, but I doubt they will.

They know it's "evil" to some people. That isn't really what they care about though. They make more money than AMD and have a way bigger share of the market. This program will only help them continue those trends.

AMD would have to make some SERIOUS improvements in the GPU space, and have this blow up in the media a lot more for anything to really bit Nvidia in the ass.
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:49 am

The GPP sure seems to be anti-competitive by intent. The timing of which just happens to coincide with AMD not being in a position to sell any high-end gaming GPUs in any quantity to speak of for the better part of a year (due to Vega supply issues and the crypto boom impacting AMD more heavily from the outset).

The thing I'm not clear about is whether the GPP stipulates that AMD GPUs can't be sold themselves with ROG branding (to take the ASUS example). Or whether ROG gaming systems have to exclusively be sold with Nvidia cards. If it's the former is probably much less of an issue, because I don't think GPU customers are all that used to seeing AMD and Nvidia GPUs with the same OEM gaming brands (does anyone really care what logo de jour ASUS, Gigabyte, etc, decides to decorate the HSF with?). However, if the latter, then this really becomes anti-competitive. Especially for larger OEMS such as Dell who will not be able to sell AMD GPUs in Alienware systems. If this applies to gaming GPUs for laptops, the situation is that much worse. Is XPS a considered a gaming brand?
 
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:54 pm

I have read this thread, and I would like to make some points in regards to this issue:

1- Kyle Bennett's March 8, 2018 piece fails to post the contract between Nvidia & its supposed 7 partners.

2- Without the ability to disprove the article's claims, then it is impossible to even entertain the legal ramifications, whatever they might be. If we don't know the facts about the case, or have any sort of substantiated claims, then we simply engage in a fruitless exercise of lazy conjectures. At this point, everyone, and everyone's dog has an opinion they feel must be shared and debated when in reality we are simply engaging in gossip instead of having a rigorous intellectual discussion.

3- I hold no opinion since I lack the requisite ability to ascertain to the veracity of the article's claims, therefore I withhold any opinion as to the issue until any new worthwhile developments come forth such as a lawsuit filed for relief by the alleged partners or rivals of Nvidia. Otherwise, we are not privy to that contract, and we have no standing to sue and possibly do any sort of discovery on these claims.

4- All affirmative claims bear the burden of proof; they must be supported and be independently falsifiable. In a Court of Law, the defendant in any sort of criminal or civil proceeding must have the opportunity to have compulsory process and have the ability to rebut such claims as enumerated by the Sixth and Seventh amendments of the U.S. Constitution, and any and all applicable case law, rules of evidence, etc before relief for the plaintiff is awarded. In the same vein, Plaintiffs must show they have suffered some sort of harm for which they have a legally cognizable cause of action for which a Court of Law offers some type of relief.

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chuckula
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:46 pm

I have read this thread and seen what has actually happened and I'll say:

1. The fact that Nvidia plays hardball and that AMD doesn't like it isn't a crime. AMD making self-indulgent press releases about the fact that NVidia got the better of them doesn't mean Nvidia committed a crime.

2. It's pretty clear that the initial rumors that Nvidia was "outlawing" resellers from selling AMD boards by cutting off their access to Nvidia resources isn't actually correct. Instead, it just looks like Nvidia is forcing clear brand separation by making board makers separate their own branding for Nvidia & AMD products. That's not stopping the same AIB makers from selling AMD though.

3. Related to point 2, it also appears that Nvidia didn't force the AIB makers to "kick AMD out" of their existing brand lines to make new ones. For example, Asus "Republic of Games" could have kept AMD cards and Asus could have come up with a new brand for Nvidia and still have been in compliance. It's not Nvidia being "mean" as to why the AIB makers have chosen to gin up new brands for AMD, it's their own decision based on the reality of product demand. AMD can change that reality by releasing products that destroy Nvidia.

4. Given the expectation that AMD products are going to destroy Nvidia any day now, this might be a good thing for AMD too: Now that there's better differentiation between the AIB brands for AMD and Nvidia, it will be easier to identify the AMD cards once AMD releases Navi and permanently destroys Nvidia. #PoorVolta
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ludi
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:30 pm

chuckula wrote:
I have read this thread and seen what has actually happened and I'll say

Now that's thinking like an Nvidia lawyer!

Seriously. They have obviously vetted this pretty carefully but the arm twisting is real. Vendors like Asus and MSI have invested heavily in brands like RoG and Fatal1ty over a period of years, and with Nvidia dominating the GPU market right now as you noted, they don't have much choice but to roll over and cede that established branding to Nvidia products. AMD, being the smaller rival, gets whatever dregs of a new marketing campaign the vendors can afford to build. That's pretty much a textbook example of monopoly power at work.

It may be legal but it's "a heads I win, tails you lose" deal.
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Welch
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:31 am

ludi wrote:
chuckula wrote:
I have read this thread and seen what has actually happened and I'll say

Now that's thinking like an Nvidia lawyer!

Seriously. They have obviously vetted this pretty carefully but the arm twisting is real. Vendors like Asus and MSI have invested heavily in brands like RoG and Fatal1ty over a period of years, and with Nvidia dominating the GPU market right now as you noted, they don't have much choice but to roll over and cede that established branding to Nvidia products. AMD, being the smaller rival, gets whatever dregs of a new marketing campaign the vendors can afford to build. That's pretty much a textbook example of monopoly power at work.

It may be legal but it's "a heads I win, tails you lose" deal.


Yep pretty much. I agree Nvidia technically didn't do anything illegal. However, to pretend this was some sort of legit, run of the mill, everyday marketing thing to just clarify and provide any sort of value or understanding to consumers... That would be delusional. It was a dirty play, admittedly a damn good one at that. I hope it comes back to bite Nvidia in the ass.
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DragonDaddyBear
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:37 am

While I don't like what Nvidia might have done,the we won't know without the contracts. You are right.
But would it be illegal to do something do anticompetitive when there is a duopoly? Harming the other manufacture in such a way could result some form of government intervention. I think there is precedent for that.
 
Airmantharp
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:37 pm

I'll reiterate: AMD's product line is doing their market share the 'harm'.

Nvidia might not have been able to push the GPP if AMD had been providing real competition- and if they had?

It might be Nvidia getting the 'AREZ' line and being booted off of ROG.
 
chuckula
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Fri May 04, 2018 1:10 pm

Oh man... they canceled it! https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2018/05/04/gpp/

WHAT ARE WE GOING TO WHINE ABOUT NOW!?!?!?
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Redocbew
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Fri May 04, 2018 1:18 pm

The rumors, conjecture and mistruths go far beyond its intent. Rather than battling misinformation, we have decided to cancel the program.


Translation: Now that the cat is out of the bag you're all being a real pain in the ass, and it's not like we really need this program anyway.
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ludi
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Fri May 04, 2018 1:39 pm

Redocbew wrote:
The rumors, conjecture and mistruths go far beyond its intent. Rather than battling misinformation, we have decided to cancel the program.


Translation: Now that the cat is out of the bag you're all being a real pain in the ass, and it's not like we really need this program anyway.

Was going to say. That whole press release reads like the snippy sniping of a sophomore cheerleader bemoaning how those unpopular girls, like, totally ruin everything. And they're ugly losers anyway. *sassy hair flip*
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derFunkenstein
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Fri May 04, 2018 1:50 pm

chuckula wrote:
Oh man... they canceled it! https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2018/05/04/gpp/

WHAT ARE WE GOING TO WHINE ABOUT NOW!?!?!?

Memory prices.
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chuckula
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Fri May 04, 2018 2:01 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
chuckula wrote:
Oh man... they canceled it! https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2018/05/04/gpp/

WHAT ARE WE GOING TO WHINE ABOUT NOW!?!?!?

Memory prices.



It's nice to see that there are still some things that can bring us together! [wipes away a tear]
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Kretschmer
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Re: Nvidia Partner Program - Illegal?

Fri May 04, 2018 2:03 pm

Thanks everyone. You've ruined it for me, and now I'll have no idea which GPU vendor I'm buying. Here's hoping that my "ROG UBER-1030-3GB-DDR3" is a Vega 64. I guess I'll find out when I open it at home....

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