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DancinJack
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:13 pm

End User wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:
As one of the altekackers here, I still remember when GFX reviews set 30 FPS as the "threshold of realness".

Do you even build PCs?

Yeah, I think he built a 4790K/GTX 970 based machine when those were the best value products on the market. Can't remember for sure, but that's not that long ago.
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dragontamer5788
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Wed Aug 22, 2018 1:55 am

synthtel2 wrote:
dragontamer5788 wrote:
NVidia did 1-sample per pixel + a hell-of-a-lot of denoising in their demos (some kind of spacial-temporal effect, smoothing over space AND time to keep animated images looking nice). The "Star Wars" Demo was 1-sample per pixel + denoising IIRC.

Only one sample? Maybe it does have a good chance of being fast then. Of course, now that we know denoising of that grade is possible I'll be trying to think up ways to do it without dragging in neural nets, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. :wink:


Yup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSmm_vEVs10

Actual paper here: http://cg.ivd.kit.edu/svgf.php

No neural networks needed, successful with just 1-spp.

From what I can tell from the papers, the temporal-denoising was the big advancement. Simple spacial denoising has been done for a while, but the "denoised blobs" kinda flow around in an animation (the "clusters" of shadows and/or fireflies move randomly, as per the Monte-carlo raytracing algorithm demands). By denoising over time, you end up with not only more effective samples (smoothing over 10-frames means you really have 10-samples you've averaged over), you also end up with a smoother animation without "floating blobs".

While this paper / youtube video doesn't need any neural networks for the image... I bet you that it uses those FP16 Tensor Cores (super high-speed low-precision arithmetic).

--------------

IIRC, NVidia was hoping to test 0.5 or even fewer samples per pixel. Because the time-averaging effect really does work some magic. 0.5 spp effectively becomes "denoise an average every 2 frames" for example. Moving objects would probably be an issue, but being able to just do 0.5 or even 0.25 spp on all static objects (then doing a more expensive pass on dynamic objects) probably would save a lot of time.
 
chuckula
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:56 am

Based on what Dragontamer said there are two things that stand out:
1. Nvidia definitely deserves some credit for pushing these optimizations for ray tracing to even bring it into the realm of possibility for consumer-level hardware.
2. Even with all that optimization and these cards with hundreds of trillions of operations per second in ray tracing, we have only just gotten to the point where it's becoming possible in very high-end hardware.
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ColeLT1
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:18 am

What fps did a 1080ti/1080/vega get at the same demo? 30fps is very impressive if the previous gen ran it at less than half that (or could run it at all).
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derFunkenstein
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:56 am

chuckula wrote:
Based on what Dragontamer said there are two things that stand out:
1. Nvidia definitely deserves some credit for pushing these optimizations for ray tracing to even bring it into the realm of possibility for consumer-level hardware.
2. Even with all that optimization and these cards with hundreds of trillions of operations per second in ray tracing, we have only just gotten to the point where it's becoming possible in very high-end hardware.

What it really did there for me is make me really excited about 7nm GPUs that can pack more RTX capabilities into them.
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Captain Ned
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:12 am

DancinJack wrote:
End User wrote:
Captain Ned wrote:
As one of the altekackers here, I still remember when GFX reviews set 30 FPS as the "threshold of realness".

Do you even build PCs?
Yeah, I think he built a 4790K/GTX 970 based machine when those were the best value products on the market. Can't remember for sure, but that's not that long ago.

Yep. Build dates from Spring 2015. It replaced a C2D/P35 build (which replaced a Socket A build).

As for my original statement, go back and look at GFX reviews and comments from the late 1990s/early Aughts. All the goodies at 30-45 FPS in A-list games was hard to do back then even at 10x7. All I was trying to say is that the threshold for "looks real" grows in pace with GFX capabilities.
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dragontamer5788
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:34 am

ColeLT1 wrote:
What fps did a 1080ti/1080/vega get at the same demo? 30fps is very impressive if the previous gen ran it at less than half that (or could run it at all).


Raytracing couldn't "run at all" on previous generations.

Well... anything can be software emulated and CUDA is a Turing-complete language. Crude estimates would suggest that the 1080 Ti is capable of ~500 Megarays / second of Raytracing power. CUDA-based raytracers are somewhere around that speed (+/- a magnitude. Its a super-crude estimate). The RTX 2080 Ti has dedicated hardware to allow 10 Gigarays-per-second (NVidia's claim, still subject to 3rd party review). So we're looking at something that is 5x to 20x faster, with regards to the Raytracing problem.

Sorry for the bad estimate, but NVidia hasn't really shown a 1080 Ti running the Raytracing stuff. So "no one really knows" for sure. But 5x to 20x speedup is the best estimate I'm willing to come up with.

-----------

The main issue is: do gamers care to take the HUGE hit in performance (2080 Ti running at ~1080p / 30fps) to get those Raytraced shadows, reflections and refractions?
 
Waco
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:46 am

Captain Ned wrote:
As for my original statement, go back and look at GFX reviews and comments from the late 1990s/early Aughts. All the goodies at 30-45 FPS in A-list games was hard to do back then even at 10x7. All I was trying to say is that the threshold for "looks real" grows in pace with GFX capabilities.

Hell, even in the early 00's 30 FPS was a great threshold for games. I remember just being happy I could run at 1024x768 without dips below 15 FPS (often) in Morrowind with the view distance set a little further out than my nose.

Perhaps that's why kids these days are so spoiled with graphics. They simply don't recall the old days when 256 colors was a jump up in fidelity. Or 16 bit color. Or resolutions above 320x240. Etc...

I got downvoted for claiming that you can happily game modern AAA titles with older GPUs / recent APUs. It's 100% possible to have an enjoyable experience on older / slower hardware as long as you aren't hand-wringing over what you're "missing out on" by not having the sliders all the way up.

EDIT: I sound old.
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:02 am

Agreed 100%. Back in the day (this would have been around 1999) My monitor only supported 800x600. The demo for AOE...1? was hard-locked to 1024x768. I had to play it with the bottom 224 rows of pixels super-imposed on top and the right 168 columns of pixels superimposed on left. I still put many hours into the demo. Load times between levels off of CD's could measure in minutes. I was amazed that when Riven (or maybe it was Myst 3 Exile) had support for multiple cd-drives so even though the game was spread across 4 or 5 cd's. I could go ahead and load the disk for the level I was headed to and it would grab it immediately.
 
derFunkenstein
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:36 am

Waco wrote:
I got downvoted for claiming that you can happily game modern AAA titles with older GPUs / recent APUs. It's 100% possible to have an enjoyable experience on older / slower hardware as long as you aren't hand-wringing over what you're "missing out on" by not having the sliders all the way up.

EDIT: I sound old.

You do sound old (and perhaps you are!), but you're right. I played the first several missions of BattleTech on a Ryzen 5 2400G system. It was fine at low settings and relatively low resolution, and still super enjoyable. It looks nicer at high settings / 1080p on my MBP but the framerate is still sub-60 because it's not a twitchy game. 30fps is fine.

I do get that framerate makes a difference depending on the game type. I play StarCraft 2 on sub-max settings because I want a steady 60fps. And I'm happy to make that concession. So applied to this case, if 30fps (if that's really where it ships) is just totally ugh-awful, turn of the fancy effects. It's not hard to figure out.
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Waco
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:48 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
You do sound old (and perhaps you are!), but you're right.

33 a couple weeks ago, so not that old just yet. :P

I, too, played Battletech on a "sub par" gaming machien: my Asus ultrabook. I've played Far Cry 5 on it as well, with effects/render resolution turned down. It's still super enjoyable if the game itself is fun (and you can get 30+ FPS for fast-moving titles).
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:04 pm

How long before benchmarks usually come out from various sites? 1-2 weeks or more? I fee like I'm close to needing to build a new system.
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:10 pm

mvp324 wrote:
How long before benchmarks usually come out from various sites? 1-2 weeks or more? I fee like I'm close to needing to build a new system.


September 20, 2018 is when the NDA for RTX 2xxx should be lifted and SKUs should appear on etailer shelves in limited supplies.
Last edited by Krogoth on Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DancinJack
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Wed Aug 22, 2018 4:10 pm

mvp324 wrote:
How long before benchmarks usually come out from various sites? 1-2 weeks or more? I fee like I'm close to needing to build a new system.

I don't know when NDA breaks, it's usually before release date, but the 2080 and Ti get a formal release on Sept. 20. Not even a month.
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:42 pm

Krogoth wrote:
mvp324 wrote:
How long before benchmarks?.
September 20, 2018 is when the NDA for RTX 2xxx should be lifted and SKUs should appear on etailer shelves in limited supplies.
... unless some jackhole pump-and-dumper invents a crypto currency scam that relies on ray tracing hardware. Then there will be zero available.
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Krogoth
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:10 pm

JustAnEngineer wrote:
Krogoth wrote:
mvp324 wrote:
How long before benchmarks?.
September 20, 2018 is when the NDA for RTX 2xxx should be lifted and SKUs should appear on etailer shelves in limited supplies.
... unless some jackhole pump-and-dumper invents a crypto currency scam that relies on ray tracing hardware. Then there will be zero available.


The tensor cores? Nah, they are most likely crippled at driver/firmware level to ensure that you'll have to get a Volta Tesla if you want the general compute performance out of them. If they happen to have full functionality, then it'll be the "AI Learning" and general compute crowd as "poor man's Tesla " that's going to be hoarding them not miners.
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synthtel2
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:49 pm

dragontamer5788 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSmm_vEVs10

Actual paper here: http://cg.ivd.kit.edu/svgf.php

No neural networks needed, successful with just 1-spp.

From what I can tell from the papers, the temporal-denoising was the big advancement. Simple spacial denoising has been done for a while, but the "denoised blobs" kinda flow around in an animation (the "clusters" of shadows and/or fireflies move randomly, as per the Monte-carlo raytracing algorithm demands). By denoising over time, you end up with not only more effective samples (smoothing over 10-frames means you really have 10-samples you've averaged over), you also end up with a smoother animation without "floating blobs".

That's fantastic! Mostly-temporal techniques wouldn't do the trick either, but they've got a mix working. 1080p40-50 on a Titan Xp can't be mainstream for a while (they quote a similar pixel rate for the actual tracing as for their filtering), but there'll probably be quite a few iterations on it over the next few years.

With all that specialized hardware, Nvidia gets some interesting choices of how to arrange work. Hopefully latency is unchanged.

Navi, the PS5, and the Xbox Two will be interesting. If Navi has any particular features at all to help out raytracing it's probably going mainstream the moment the PS5 is out, and if not there will be a lot of incentive to make it work anyway. After reading that paper, making it work despite no special support seems a lot more feasible.

dragontamer5788 wrote:
While this paper / youtube video doesn't need any neural networks for the image... I bet you that it uses those FP16 Tensor Cores (super high-speed low-precision arithmetic).

It looks to me like it's probably memory-bound.

dragontamer5788 wrote:
IIRC, NVidia was hoping to test 0.5 or even fewer samples per pixel. Because the time-averaging effect really does work some magic. 0.5 spp effectively becomes "denoise an average every 2 frames" for example. Moving objects would probably be an issue, but being able to just do 0.5 or even 0.25 spp on all static objects (then doing a more expensive pass on dynamic objects) probably would save a lot of time.

At some point (maybe even immediately), it's going to be better to do all tracing-related work at a reduced resolution instead of spending that much work filtering a small number of samples. At least at 1 spp, the most obvious difference from reference looks to just be the blurriness anyway. 1 spp at 720p upsampled onto a normal 1440p render might both look better (overall) and run faster than the 1 spp 1080p demonstrated here.
 
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:19 am

Captain Ned wrote:

I got downvoted for claiming that you can happily game modern AAA titles with older GPUs / recent APUs. It's 100% possible to have an enjoyable experience on older / slower hardware as long as you aren't hand-wringing over what you're "missing out on" by not having the sliders all the way up.



I had a similar sentiment until around 2011 - with the release of Witcher 2. Didn't matter what I did to settings (at 1080P), that game just "broke" my machine. :oops:

-it was so depressing that I waited until Skylake to upgrade (..and even then, the real reason was for a server that could also be used as a gaming machine for less strenuous titles), and I actually spent far less than I had in the past on a video card (..1060 3GB for $119 after rebates on Black Friday). I'm still waiting for something "more" for a purpose-built gaming machine with VR. (..but VR doesn't seem to be evolving particularly quickly, so the wait is actually a good thing).

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