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Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:36 pm

Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled looks to be rather poor - 30fps @ 1920x1080. That is a bummer:

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Shadow-of ... 916.0.html
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:44 pm

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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:45 pm

I'd wait for the final hardware and software and sincerely doubt that Nvidia would bet the farm on a feature that hobbles their flagship GPU to 30FPS at 1080p.

If anyone wonders why these companies are so frugal with unfettered access to their products before release, this is why.
 
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:48 pm

Kretschmer wrote:
I'd wait for the final hardware and software and sincerely doubt that Nvidia would bet the farm on a feature that hobbles their flagship GPU to 30FPS at 1080p.

If anyone wonders why these companies are so frugal with unfettered access to their products before release, this is why.

If this was a big leap in performance, nvidia wouldn't have made up a new type of metric to describe it's performance. A large standard performance leap would have been front and center.
 
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:54 pm

Nvidia promised you a cinematic experience!

With the frame rates to prove it!
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:05 pm

It is the Geforce 3 all over again expect the entrance price was a mere $349-399 instead being north of $599.
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:08 pm

Krogoth wrote:
It is the Geforce 3 all over again expect the entrance price was a mere $349-399 instead being north of $599.


$350 in 2001 (March to be precise) is: $500.58 in 2018 adjusted for inflation.

https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl ... ar2=201807
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:17 pm

Krogoth wrote:
It is the Geforce 3 all over again expect the entrance price was a mere $349-399 instead being north of $599.


May be the GeforceFX...
 
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:20 pm

christos_thski wrote:
Krogoth wrote:
It is the Geforce 3 all over again expect the entrance price was a mere $349-399 instead being north of $599.


May be the GeforceFX...


Only if they get that special acoustic profile of the cooler JUST RIGHT.
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:29 pm

You guys have seen ONE "benchmark" of pre-production hardware on a pre-production software patch and you're calling it a failure already. Good stuff.
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:30 pm

DancinJack wrote:
You guys have seen ONE "benchmark" of pre-production hardware on a pre-production software patch and you're calling it a failure already. Good stuff.


Yeah!

Slightly less seriously, we keep hearing about how you don't need to have expensive hardware to play games.
Well Nvidia really REALLY wanted to change that!
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:36 pm

DancinJack wrote:
You guys have seen ONE "benchmark" of pre-production hardware on a pre-production software patch and you're calling it a failure already. Good stuff.

There is also the conspicuous lack of any benchmark at all in the presentation, it was all RT based. Anyone buying the card now is doing so completely blind, if it was a 40% or even a 25% jump over the previous gen, wouldn't they have bragged about the increase?
 
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:40 pm

Yes, god forbid anyone see actual games and numbers on production platforms. I know, I'm crazy.
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:58 pm

DancinJack wrote:
You guys have seen ONE "benchmark" of pre-production hardware on a pre-production software patch and you're calling it a failure already. Good stuff.


Not only that, they're basing the "1080p30" remarks on the VIDEO CAPTURE, which has nothing to do with the display output of the machine that was running the demo. Fanboyish nonsense. If you really think NV is releasing a $1200 video card that runs new games at 1080p30 then I've got some prime oceanside real-estate for sale in Colorado.
 
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:58 pm

Am I the only one wow'd by the graphical fidelity of the shadows in the demo?

The fact that the spinning death trap's shadows interacts with the whole environment, including Laura Croft as she's climbing the walls, that stuff looks awesome! I mean, not $1200 awesome. But awesome nonetheless.

A big problem with this technology is that off-screen items need to be rendered all the time now. The giant spinning death trap on the ceiling is almost never actually in view, but the game has to "think" about its location to properly render its shadow (and then that shadow needs to then bounce off of Laura Croft and interact with the lighting all over her body). Its also an excellent demonstration of how the shadow can build tension as you climb up the walls, you know you are getting closer to the death trap as you guestimate the position of it from the shadows alone.

I dunno, I'm genuinely impressed by the demo. 1080p @30fps sounds bad, but I see new opportunities here that have never been done before. The kind of gameplay hooks that get me interested. Games need to be built with this mechanic in mind, but... there's a lot of stuff you can learn from shadows. Stuff that I used to ignore because rasterized shadows look super-super fake, but the ray-traced ones are good enough to actually build mechanics off of.

--------

Battlefield V: Meh. Fancy explosions off of a shiny part of the car. That's not useful at all. A cool tech demo, but I'm not buying a game off of that.

Shadow of the Tomb Raider: if a few puzzles can be figured out (or assisted by) watching the shadows? That'd be damn amazing and a great demo of the technology. A shame it costs $1200 to do, but that really is something that hasn't been done before.
 
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:23 pm

Krogoth wrote:
It is the Geforce 3 all over again expect the entrance price was a mere $349-399 instead being north of $599.


I was rather fond of my Geforce 3, which replaced a Geforce 2 Ti (yes, they already had the Ti label back then). Only the prices were not the same...
Image
 
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:08 pm

There's presumably a lot of room left for them to work out performance issues, but I wouldn't be surprised if 1080p30 at max settings is an accurate characterization of it either.

Everything shadow-related I see there can be done by shadow maps, it's just kind of expensive (probably much cheaper than 1080p30). The trouble is that it's very complex to implement compared to RT shadows, enough so that almost nobody does given how few systems will be able to run it anyway.

Shadow mapping can avoid considering every object every frame by doubling up on maps, keeping one for static objects and adding the moving objects to it every frame. They're probably doing something similar here, either keeping separate BVHs for static and moving objects or just keeping a persistent-by-default representation of the world and updating whatever's changed each frame. Incremental updates to BVHs are a bit of a PITA, but Nvidia doesn't shy away from that sort of thing.
 
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:35 pm

I'll wait for final results. There are probably clever optimizations that you can make to reduce the total number of shadow rays cast; theoretically you need to cast multiple shadow rays for each pixel back towards the area light to get a nice diffuse shadow with proper contact hardening, but I bet you could do something smart to avoid casting so many shadow rays near the center of shadows, and only add extra samples near the edges.

It's interesting though; I think shadows are the case that will hammer the RTX cores hardest. In other raytraced effects like reflections, you have to deal with a whole bunch of non-coherent data lookups (unless you have suspiciously perfect mirror-like reflections, like a certain Battlefield V demo, which lets you keep your data access pretty coherent). Whereas the shadows basically boil down to how fast you can intersect rays with the geometry.
 
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:08 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
There's presumably a lot of room left for them to work out performance issues, but I wouldn't be surprised if 1080p30 at max settings is an accurate characterization of it either.

Everything shadow-related I see there can be done by shadow maps, it's just kind of expensive (probably much cheaper than 1080p30). The trouble is that it's very complex to implement compared to RT shadows, enough so that almost nobody does given how few systems will be able to run it anyway.

Shadow mapping can avoid considering every object every frame by doubling up on maps, keeping one for static objects and adding the moving objects to it every frame. They're probably doing something similar here, either keeping separate BVHs for static and moving objects or just keeping a persistent-by-default representation of the world and updating whatever's changed each frame. Incremental updates to BVHs are a bit of a PITA, but Nvidia doesn't shy away from that sort of thing.


A shadow map definitely emulates the effect. But I'm not convinced it is the same.

The shadow map probably works well if the objects are static. But a moving object will vary in distance away from the wall it is casting a shadow upon. Classic shadow mapping simply blurs the shadow uniformly. But a proper raytracer will be able to calculate the appropriate blur for the object as it gets closer and/or further away from the wall. Its a subtle effect for sure, but those are the details needed to better place objects.

Image

That's a raytraced example (probably not a RT Raytrace). You can see that the shadows "closer" to the object are sharper. But the shadows "far away" are more blurred. Raytracing can calculate this effect, but shadow maps (as far as I'm aware anyway) cannot.
 
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:11 pm

Maybe I'm in the minority, but to me the various demos of lighting effects are so convincing I'd probably play the game at 720p and sit back from my desk if I could do it.
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:17 pm

dragontamer5788 wrote:
A shadow map definitely emulates the effect. But I'm not convinced it is the same.

[...]

Shadow maps take some extensions to do that, but they can. PCSS (from way back in 2005) is a good example. I like the idea of SAVSMs to go with it (but haven't tried any such thing). There may still be a lot more complexity past that to get performance up, since the kind of quality on display in that demo needs pretty near full geometry detail and near 1:1 shadow map resolution and would really rather not be rendering unnecessary polys/texels. Either way gets very slow very quick when multiple lights get involved. RT shadows probably have a sizable advantage with multiple lights, but that demo doesn't look to be doing much with that.

GTA V comes to mind as a game that includes this (two implementations of it, actually).

derFunkenstein wrote:
Maybe I'm in the minority, but to me the various demos of lighting effects are so convincing I'd probably play the game at 720p and sit back from my desk if I could do it.

That environment mapping stuff is where raytracing is exactly the holy grail it's cracked up to be, and it looks like Atomic Heart is relying on it. We can emulate all of that without raytracing, but it's a pretty shoddy emulation and it takes both a lot of programmer time and a lot of compute time to get even that. At least with the non-RT shadows you can get a seriously high-quality result for your effort.
 
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:36 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
dragontamer5788 wrote:
A shadow map definitely emulates the effect. But I'm not convinced it is the same.

[...]

Shadow maps take some extensions to do that, but they can. PCSS (from way back in 2005) is a good example. I like the idea of SAVSMs to go with it (but haven't tried any such thing). There may still be a lot more complexity past that to get performance up, since the kind of quality on display in that demo needs pretty near full geometry detail and near 1:1 shadow map resolution and would really rather not be rendering unnecessary polys/texels. Either way gets very slow very quick when multiple lights get involved. RT shadows probably have a sizable advantage with multiple lights, but that demo doesn't look to be doing much with that.

GTA V comes to mind as a game that includes this (two implementations of it, actually).


I agree that the the scene in "Shadow of the Tomb Raider" looks like its only using a single light source (+some kind of environmental lighting). Kinda hard to tell because the video quality is so shoddy, but there really is only one primary "sun" lamp.

Thanks for the info. Maybe the game will look fine in non-raytraced mode.

Hmmm... I think we need a before-and-after shot to best see the difference.
 
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:36 pm

As one of the altekackers here, I still remember when GFX reviews set 30 FPS as the "threshold of realness".
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:40 pm

synthtel2 wrote:
derFunkenstein wrote:
Maybe I'm in the minority, but to me the various demos of lighting effects are so convincing I'd probably play the game at 720p and sit back from my desk if I could do it.

That environment mapping stuff is where raytracing is exactly the holy grail it's cracked up to be, and it looks like Atomic Heart is relying on it. We can emulate all of that without raytracing, but it's a pretty shoddy emulation and it takes both a lot of programmer time and a lot of compute time to get even that. At least with the non-RT shadows you can get a seriously high-quality result for your effort.


The caustics on the floaty-water-ball thingy look crazy.

Reflections / Refractions are one of those other things that require raytracing. Although I'm not entirely sure if it really "adds" to the scene aside from realism. The thing is, without studying caustics / reflections / refractions, its very difficult to know what they are supposed to look like. So most laypeople probably won't tell the difference. Its not like people typically look at the shadows cast by semi-transparent objects with strange index-of-refractions all day. Water in a glass? Maybe, but how many people can tell where the light is supposed to go even in this simple case?

Image

EDIT: Wikipedia suggests that the caustic can be emulated by a pre-rendered texture laid on top of the shadow.

EDIT: Or for this 2nd example:

Image

Hmmm... now I'm wondering if its possible to build a game off of IOR effects, mirrors, transparency and all that.
Last edited by dragontamer5788 on Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:50 pm

The thing I wonder most about this is whether resolution affects performance of the RTX effects. It's got to trace the rays of light regardless of resolution to fill in the picture. If you don't trace enough rays, presumably you get a grainy picture. Trace too many rays and performance tanks without improving the image. Maybe there's a "sweet spot" that performs and gives great image quality at 720p vs 1080p? Or 1080 vs 1440, or whatever? I have zero idea if that's even realistic, so I'm open to being corrected.
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:56 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
The thing I wonder most about this is whether resolution affects performance of the RTX effects. It's got to trace the rays of light regardless of resolution to fill in the picture. If you don't trace enough rays, presumably you get a grainy picture. Trace too many rays and performance tanks without improving the image. Maybe there's a "sweet spot" that performs and gives great image quality at 720p vs 1080p? Or 1080 vs 1440, or whatever? I have zero idea if that's even realistic, so I'm open to being corrected.


NVidia did 1-sample per pixel + a hell-of-a-lot of denoising in their demos (some kind of spacial-temporal effect, smoothing over space AND time to keep animated images looking nice). The "Star Wars" Demo was 1-sample per pixel + denoising IIRC.

"Typical" CG animations are 100+ samples per pixel, rumored to go up to 5000+ in the case of like... Davy Jones (Pirates of the Caribbean). I have no idea what settings were used for Grand Moff Tarkin (Star Wars: Rogue One), but I'd presume in the 5000+ samples per pixel zone or maybe even a few magnitudes more.

The general technique NVidia is hoping for is that their spacial-temporal denoiser magic sauce can erase the graininess. And as far as I can tell, it does a really good job at that. So props to NVidia. It will only work for blurry images however, not perfect mirrors or whatnot. But still, its progress. You simply need more than just 1-sample-per-pixel to achieve the photorealistic effects from Hollywood.
 
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:10 pm

dragontamer5788 wrote:
NVidia did 1-sample per pixel + a hell-of-a-lot of denoising in their demos (some kind of spacial-temporal effect, smoothing over space AND time to keep animated images looking nice). The "Star Wars" Demo was 1-sample per pixel + denoising IIRC.

"Typical" CG animations are 100+ samples per pixel, rumored to go up to 5000+ in the case of like... Davy Jones (Pirates of the Caribbean). I have no idea what settings were used for Grand Moff Tarkin (Star Wars: Rogue One), but I'd presume in the 5000+ samples per pixel zone or maybe even a few magnitudes more.

The general technique NVidia is hoping for is that their spacial-temporal denoiser magic sauce can erase the graininess. And as far as I can tell, it does a really good job at that. So props to NVidia. It will only work for blurry images however, not perfect mirrors or whatnot. But still, its progress. You simply need more than just 1-sample-per-pixel to achieve the photorealistic effects from Hollywood.

OK so that means that there will be performance scaling for different resolutions. Makes sense. I was kind of getting the impression yesterday that it was just rendering an image (at a really high resolution, no doubt) and then that image was being scaled to fit the viewport or something. But what you're saying makes more sense.
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:16 pm

dragontamer5788 wrote:
Reflections / Refractions are one of those other things that require raytracing. Although I'm not entirely sure if it really "adds" to the scene aside from realism. The thing is, without studying caustics / reflections / refractions, its very difficult to know what they are supposed to look like. So most laypeople probably won't tell the difference. Its not like people typically look at the shadows cast by semi-transparent objects with strange index-of-refractions all day. Water in a glass? Maybe, but how many people can tell where the light is supposed to go even in this simple case?

Refractions are cool, but as you're saying, most people won't notice if caustics are a hack. Reflections are trickier. Games can easily need three or even all of:

* global map (possibly the same as the skybox)
* local probes (cubemaps or similar; figuring out where to place them is a major headache)
* planar alternate POVs (for water, mirrors and such)
* screen-space reflections (which can't see anything off-screen)

Not only is it annoying to have a bunch of different systems approaching the same problem from such different angles, but once they're all in place you've still got to figure out which of them are actually returning reliable results for a given pixel, choose one or a blend even if some are maybe-failing,1 and make everything line up with minimal artifacts. It's amazing it works as well as it does, really.

1 The screen-space reflection trace for a pixel went through a background area occluded by something in the foreground - there might have been something back there for it to hit, or there might not. Maybe there was, and the next pixel over hit it in its own trace and it'll artifact either way. How do you choose a good blend of reflection sources in that situation?

Captain Ned wrote:
As one of the altekackers here, I still remember when GFX reviews set 30 FPS as the "threshold of realness".

30 fps is pretty alright when latency is decent, which is was back in the day but isn't anymore. :evil:

dragontamer5788 wrote:
NVidia did 1-sample per pixel + a hell-of-a-lot of denoising in their demos (some kind of spacial-temporal effect, smoothing over space AND time to keep animated images looking nice). The "Star Wars" Demo was 1-sample per pixel + denoising IIRC.

Only one sample? Maybe it does have a good chance of being fast then. Of course, now that we know denoising of that grade is possible I'll be trying to think up ways to do it without dragging in neural nets, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. :wink:
 
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:20 pm

DancinJack wrote:
You guys have seen ONE "benchmark" of pre-production hardware on a pre-production software patch and you're calling it a failure already. Good stuff.

I'm causing a stir while I wait for the TR review.
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Re: Shadow of the Tomb Raider's performance on the GeForce RTX 2080 Ti with ray tracing enabled - 30fps @ 1920x1080

Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:21 pm

Captain Ned wrote:
As one of the altekackers here, I still remember when GFX reviews set 30 FPS as the "threshold of realness".

Do you even build PCs?
"Straight roads are for fast cars, turns are for fast drivers" - Colin McRae

"If you drive an auto or a dual-clutch you should hang your head in shame." - EU

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