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SpotTheCat
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RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:35 pm

With the consumer release of the green team's new architecture, and well over two years since the launch of the previous architecture, I was excited for a substantial gain in performance across every price point. Instead, they have only introduced a new, higher price point and left the products from May 2016 on the market. This reminds me of how the iPhone X was launched as a higher price point in addition to their already high-end portfolio. Come on, AMD, can you at least add a little bit of competitive pressure? I would like to see something with higher performance at the 1070 price point. Anybody else in the same boat?
 
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:54 pm

I think Nvidia marketing wants to go in the Apple direction but the reality is that discrete GPU market is about to undergo demand destruction in the coming decade when integrated GPUs and semi-integrated solutions start to eat away at mid-range/value segments of the discrete market.

The only way to keep discrete GPU economically viable in light of increasing R&D costs and fabrication tech is to raise prices. The GPU mining craze proved that the high-end market is willing to tolerate the new price points. $600-1000 MSRP for performance gaming GPUs are starting to become the norm.
Last edited by Krogoth on Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:37 pm

I mean, the 2080 is built on the same 14nm process that Pascal was built on.

Moore's law is ending. Or at least, process shrinks are not what they used to be. The major benefit to the 2080 is a slightly revamped / tweaked architecture, but mostly GDDR6. NVidia added Tensors (which DLSS takes advantage of), and Raytracing, but neither of those help typical games today.

AMD's strategy was to wait until 7nm and release Navi on it. But at the same time, AMD seems like they're targeting the mid-range: 580 price range or so. I don't see any evidence that AMD is actually trying to build a new halo-product or super-halo product like the 2080 Ti. In either case, 7nm is expensive. So the only solutions to deliver are:

1. Bigger 14nm chips (and bigger == less yield == way more expensive).
2. Spend a LOT of money on 7nm designs, which can't be built very big initially.
 
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:42 pm

dragontamer5788 wrote:
I mean, the 2080 is built on the same 14nm process that Pascal was built on.

Moore's law is ending. Or at least, process shrinks are not what they used to be. The major benefit to the 2080 is a slightly revamped / tweaked architecture, but mostly GDDR6. NVidia added Tensors (which DLSS takes advantage of), and Raytracing, but neither of those help typical games today.

AMD's strategy was to wait until 7nm and release Navi on it. But at the same time, AMD seems like they're targeting the mid-range: 580 price range or so. I don't see any evidence that AMD is actually trying to build a new halo-product or super-halo product like the 2080 Ti. In either case, 7nm is expensive. So the only solutions to deliver are:

1. Bigger 14nm chips (and bigger == less yield == way more expensive).
2. Spend a LOT of money on 7nm designs, which can't be built very big initially.

Like, maybe TSMC is just fudging the language, but Pascal was 16nm and Turing is "12 FFN." Are those the same?
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:42 pm

Coming from a GTX 1080 the 2080 Ti looks good to me (price factored in). Stop griping about the price you cheap bastards.
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:47 pm

Krogoth wrote:
mid-range/value segments of the discrete market.

If the Intel’s of the world can deliver then yay competition.

But seriously, Windows will be dead by then.
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:52 pm

dragontamer5788 wrote:
AMD's strategy was to wait until 7nm and release Navi on it. But at the same time, AMD seems like they're targeting the mid-range: 580 price range or so. I don't see any evidence that AMD is actually trying to build a new halo-product or super-halo product like the 2080 Ti.

Whatever AMD is up to I wish they would hurry up. My VR rig is Based on Vega 64 and I have to cut down detail in iRacing to bump up my FPS. I need my damn trackside trees!!!
"Belly floppin' lockin' while I'm rockin' in the bubble bath"
 
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:44 pm

End User wrote:
Krogoth wrote:
mid-range/value segments of the discrete market.

If the Intel’s of the world can deliver then yay competition.

But seriously, Windows will be dead by then.


Windows isn't going to be dead. It has way too much momentum to go away in a decade. Window's fate is tied directly to x86 and don't think Apple's platform(s) will take over either.
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:47 pm

End User wrote:
Coming from a GTX 1080 the 2080 Ti looks good to me (price factored in). Stop griping about the price you cheap bastards.


Hate to break it to you, but most people find spending more than $499-699 on a silly peripheral for gaming purposes to be a bit ridiculous even if budget isn't a concern.
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:03 pm

Lots of people spend money on toys. Be it a $1000 lens, $800 Kimber, $2500 lift kit, $1000 kayak, $1000 bike...shall I go on?
 
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:22 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
Lots of people spend money on toys. Be it a $1000 lens, $800 Kimber, $2500 lift kit, $1000 kayak, $1000 bike...shall I go on?

Yeah, I don't really think the price is that insane when you look at it from a hobby perspective. Most people are just shocked because there has been relatively good value in graphics cards for the past little while. I didn't blink twice spending 2K on my bicycle, and that was just the frame+groupset. I've probably spent another 1K on upgrades and the like.

If you want 4K/60 the RTX 2080/Ti is the price you're going to pay for now. That's about how it goes. Better come to grips with it.
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:23 pm

It's nice and all, but the PC is just no longer where I choose to spend my disposable income.
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:29 pm

Neither do I. Actually, the only computer we have in our house is my wife’s desktop with is an AMD A8 using integrated graphics.
I have certainty spent money on other “hobbies” over the last 5 years or so. A $500 projector and a $200 receiver and maybe $200 for the Xbox 1 S. I have spent maybe $1000 on iPhones over the last 5 years or so. Maybe $800 in various firearms.
 
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:27 pm

DancinJack wrote:
Like, maybe TSMC is just fudging the language, but Pascal was 16nm and Turing is "12 FFN." Are those the same?

We could look at TSMC’s claims...

http://www.tsmc.com/english/dedicatedFo ... y/16nm.htm

so basically 12nm drives density slightly higher, and has a larger reticle.
 
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:38 pm

NoOne ButMe wrote:
DancinJack wrote:
Like, maybe TSMC is just fudging the language, but Pascal was 16nm and Turing is "12 FFN." Are those the same?

We could look at TSMC’s claims...

http://www.tsmc.com/english/dedicatedFo ... y/16nm.htm

so basically 12nm drives density slightly higher, and has a larger reticle.

Yeah, I was just very confused because dragontamer said they were both 14nm, and maybe dragontamer knew something I didn't.
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:07 am

Krogoth wrote:
End User wrote:
Coming from a GTX 1080 the 2080 Ti looks good to me (price factored in). Stop griping about the price you cheap bastards.


Hate to break it to you, but most people find spending more than $499-699 on a silly peripheral for gaming purposes to be a bit ridiculous even if budget isn't a concern.

To add to that, there hasn't been any movement in the $250-$400 range in over two years. This isn't about "griping about the price" it's more about regretting not buying a 1070 at launch.
 
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:18 pm

Funny enough, I bought both a XS Max and a 2080 Ti. People have different hobbies - mine is tech. Can't wait for 9900k launch soon. First CPU I won't need to de-lid in 6+ years!
 
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:08 pm

Krogoth wrote:
End User wrote:
Coming from a GTX 1080 the 2080 Ti looks good to me (price factored in). Stop griping about the price you cheap bastards.


Hate to break it to you, but most people find spending more than $499-699 on a silly peripheral for gaming purposes to be a bit ridiculous even if budget isn't a concern.


techguy wrote:
Funny enough, I bought both a XS Max and a 2080 Ti. People have different hobbies - mine is tech. Can't wait for 9900k launch soon. First CPU I won't need to de-lid in 6+ years!

techguy is my kind of end user!

Loving my gold XS Max 512GB. I'm currently waiting for EVGA 2080 Ti custom cooler cards to become available at retail.
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:29 pm

dragontamer5788 wrote:
1. Bigger 14nm chips (and bigger == less yield == way more expensive).
2. Spend a LOT of money on 7nm designs, which can't be built very big initially.


AMD may be trying to make a design that copies Ryzen in a way: relatively small modules that are connected by a fast interconnect. They invested quite heavily in crossfire via PCIe and could probably pull this off, instead of making expensive gigantic chips.
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:48 pm

End User wrote:
dragontamer5788 wrote:
AMD's strategy was to wait until 7nm and release Navi on it. But at the same time, AMD seems like they're targeting the mid-range: 580 price range or so. I don't see any evidence that AMD is actually trying to build a new halo-product or super-halo product like the 2080 Ti.

Whatever AMD is up to I wish they would hurry up. My VR rig is Based on Vega 64 and I have to cut down detail in iRacing to bump up my FPS. I need my damn trackside trees!!!


You might be waiting a year or more. Why wait on AMD?
 
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:52 pm

Kretschmer wrote:
End User wrote:
dragontamer5788 wrote:
AMD's strategy was to wait until 7nm and release Navi on it. But at the same time, AMD seems like they're targeting the mid-range: 580 price range or so. I don't see any evidence that AMD is actually trying to build a new halo-product or super-halo product like the 2080 Ti.

Whatever AMD is up to I wish they would hurry up. My VR rig is Based on Vega 64 and I have to cut down detail in iRacing to bump up my FPS. I need my damn trackside trees!!!


You might be waiting a year or more. Why wait on AMD?


That's assuming AMD RTG even cares about performance discrete gaming market at this point.
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:56 pm

There's always going to be something new on the horizon no matter who's making it. It's not that I don't think the new stuff is cool I'm just not interested in the waiting game, so I get what will do the job now and worry about the rest of it later.
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:21 pm

Redocbew wrote:
There's always going to be something new on the horizon no matter who's making it. It's not that I don't think the new stuff is cool I'm just not interested in the waiting game, so I get what will do the job now and worry about the rest of it later.

This is pretty much the best advice I can give to anyone buying new computer parts ever. Unless a core component of your build is only a month or two away, and you have a machine that can suffice, there is no reason to really wait. It's a bit more nuanced than a yes or no, but for the most part, just get what is there and can do the job and you'll be better off the vast majority of the time.
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:33 pm

End User wrote:
techguy is my kind of end user!

Loving my gold XS Max 512GB. I'm currently waiting for EVGA 2080 Ti custom cooler cards to become available at retail.

I'm that kind of user. I'm currently running a de-lidded 7900x all core 4.6 OC on water cooling with 32gb of ram running at 4000. My gpu is a Titan X Pascal that I pulled apart and also water cooled. I had planned to get 2 of whatever the green team dropped to go with my Asus ROG Gsync 100hz 34 inch curved screen for poopsngiggles, but this launch has left me with a big case of the mehs.

I've been trying to figure out what's got my goat, as I'm sure you've seen me bitching around TR, and I think I've got it. This whole launch reeks of arrogance, and the key feature these cards are touting is only available on a handful of games. While a can afford to drop 1200 or 2400, this whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth.
 
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:05 pm

Usacomp2k3 wrote:
Lots of people spend money on toys. Be it a $1000 lens, $800 Kimber, $2500 lift kit, $1000 kayak, $1000 bike...shall I go on?


I don't like this argument. Am I spending 1k on a bike, but it is unable to meet road conditions in 18 months, forcing me to buy another? Put another way, the bike or kayak tends to have a bit longer lifespan than a consumer grade graphics card.
 
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:45 pm

layerup wrote:
I don't like this argument. Am I spending 1k on a bike, but it is unable to meet road conditions in 18 months, forcing me to buy another? Put another way, the bike or kayak tends to have a bit longer lifespan than a consumer grade graphics card.

It's not like the card dies after 18 months. It did exactly what it did the day you bought it, and it's probably useful for another 18 months, if you bought it at release. A GTX 980 Ti is still decently performant more than three years after release.

I don't know how often people replace bikes, though. :lol: Also, from what I can tell an "high-end consumer" bicycle rings up quite a bit higher than $1000.

It's too bad graphics cards aren't like guitars, though. Old guitars appreciate in value rather than depreciate. A fifty-year-old guitar that sold new for probably $300 goes for anywhere from 10x to 100x that price these days, depending on the model and condition.

My wife has an uncle that buys and then consumes $300 to $400 bottles of whiskey. He lives in Texas but a bottle of 23-year-old Pappy Van Winkle Family Reserve showed up at Binny's in Bloomington (a 40 minute drive from here). He bought it online for in-store pickup and I drove over to pick it up and ship it to him. That sumbitch was wrapped in like 6 inches of bubble wrap (shipped in a 14x14 box) because I was not going to be the one that broke it. That retailed for $269 but I'm sure he paid more, and then he (over the course of however long) consumed it. He's got the bottle but that's it.

I think the point is people have hobbies and enjoy them. Getting pretentious or snobbish that somebody is into something you aren't and obsessing over whether it's a "good value" isn't worth it.
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:01 pm

derFunkenstein wrote:
layerup wrote:
I don't like this argument. Am I spending 1k on a bike, but it is unable to meet road conditions in 18 months, forcing me to buy another? Put another way, the bike or kayak tends to have a bit longer lifespan than a consumer grade graphics card.

It's not like the card dies after 18 months. It did exactly what it did the day you bought it, and it's probably useful for another 18 months, if you bought it at release. A GTX 980 Ti is still decently performant more than three years after release.

I don't know how often people replace bikes, though. :lol: Also, from what I can tell an "high-end consumer" bicycle rings up quite a bit higher than $1000.

I think the argument is fine re: bikes. Though I have a couple caveats to what Funk said.

"Casual" or even "enthusiast" cyclers don't replace bikes often. Unless you grow a bunch (new frame) or vastly increase your strength and skills (groupset/frame(weight)/tires) then chances are you buy a good bike that fits you and stay with it for a long time. My current bike, which I plan on sticking with for years, was pretty pricey but that's how it works. I know I bought something that will do it's job for years to come assuming I keep it tuned up and clean. I'll still have to get new stuff every once in a while like new tires, grip tape, or a new chain. That's how it works with most things. Bikes need a little upkeep over the months and years.

Having said that, the link Funk posted is pretty much for the most of the most elite cyclists. "Normal" people that just ride for leisure and exercise don't get that kind of stuff unless they have more money than sense.
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:18 pm

The only bikes I ride are stationary, in my defense. :lol:

It's still not with getting upset over. There are some costs and prerequisites of entry for any hobby
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:49 am

End User wrote:
Krogoth wrote:
End User wrote:
Coming from a GTX 1080 the 2080 Ti looks good to me (price factored in). Stop griping about the price you cheap bastards.


Hate to break it to you, but most people find spending more than $499-699 on a silly peripheral for gaming purposes to be a bit ridiculous even if budget isn't a concern.


techguy wrote:
Funny enough, I bought both a XS Max and a 2080 Ti. People have different hobbies - mine is tech. Can't wait for 9900k launch soon. First CPU I won't need to de-lid in 6+ years!

techguy is my kind of end user!

Loving my gold XS Max 512GB. I'm currently waiting for EVGA 2080 Ti custom cooler cards to become available at retail.


Nice. I wanted the gold and was able to walk into one of my carrier's stores on launch day (with no line) and buy an XS Max but all they had was the space grey so I went with that, rather than wait. Are you waiting for retail availability of the already-launched models (XC, XC Ultra) or later models like the FTW3 or Kingpin versions?
Last edited by techguy on Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: RTX 2080 / Ti similar to iPhone X launch?

Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:04 am

leor wrote:
I'm that kind of user. I'm currently running a de-lidded 7900x all core 4.6 OC on water cooling with 32gb of ram running at 4000. My gpu is a Titan X Pascal that I pulled apart and also water cooled. I had planned to get 2 of whatever the green team dropped to go with my Asus ROG Gsync 100hz 34 inch curved screen for poopsngiggles, but this launch has left me with a big case of the mehs.


Nice hardware. I run a 7900x in my media server (went with it instead of a first gen Threadripper because of AVX512 support in my video editing applications). Planning on de-lidding in the near future and have purchased a de-lidding tool because I don't trust myself to use a razor blade on a ~$1000 CPU. $350 CPUs like my 7700k in my gaming machine - that's one thing, but a $1000 screwup is more than I can stomach. Already have a loop installed since day one so we'll see what kind of 24x7 clocks I can hit without insane voltage.

I had a Titan X (Pascal) that I purchased at launch and put under a waterblock but I ended up not using it enough to justify owning it as I didn't really have a good use case for it (just occasional 1440p gaming), so I sold it for basically the same price that I paid - not too bad. Thought about buying a 1080 Ti but something about purchasing a new card that provides the same performance as one I've already owned just didn't appeal to me, so I held out for Turing. Now I have specific games that I want to try and I'll pickup a new monitor soon to get the most out of this upgrade. I have another waterblock on the way for the 2080 Ti so here we go again.

Hopefully a monitor upgrade will make me want to keep this card. Which exact monitor do you have and how do you like it? I've been looking at a number of them and nothing has really stood out so far aside from the few high-end HDR monitors out there but $2000 is definitely more than I am willing to spend on a screen that size. I can go half that amount - not spending more on a monitor than the video card that drives it.

leor wrote:
I've been trying to figure out what's got my goat, as I'm sure you've seen me bitching around TR, and I think I've got it. This whole launch reeks of arrogance, and the key feature these cards are touting is only available on a handful of games. While a can afford to drop 1200 or 2400, this whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth.


I don't like the prices either, it probably would've been better if NV bumped up the specs on the 2080 a bit more and called it the 2080 Ti and moved the 2080 Ti to an "RTX Titan" brand or something. As much as it sucks though, what can we as consumers do? Keep hoping and waiting for AMD to compete at the high end or just bite the bullet and buy what is available today? I chose the latter, but don't expect everyone else to do the same as $1200 is a lot to spend for most PC gamers.

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