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qmacpoint
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Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 8:50 am

I use an eGPU enclosure, and I'm limited to use AMD if I want to use both macOS and Windows and I'm rocking an RX580 at the moment, and I wonder if I should go out of my way and get a Radeon VII (which runs SUPER HOT, I know) or, should I wait for the Navi release... if it ever comes out :(
 
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 9:28 am

What are you doing that needs a gpu?
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 9:58 am

Radeon VII doesn't run super hot, but it does run fairly loud stock. I ended up putting a water block on mine to have sane gaming sessions. It is a beast regardless.
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qmacpoint
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 10:04 am

Aranarth wrote:
What are you doing that needs a gpu?

Games? :)
 
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 10:23 am

Reasons to wait: NAVI IS MIRACULOUS.

Reasons not to wait: When Nvidia goes bankrupt and Intel cancels its discrete GPUs (not to mention integrated graphics) because of Navi, GPU prices will experience a temporary increase as AMD buys-out TSMC and utilizes 100% of its capacity for Zen and Navi.

So you can choose.
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 10:32 am

Even if you don't buy Navi when it comes out, it is very likely to lead to lower prices on other GPUs.
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qmacpoint
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 11:08 am

I thought the Radeon VII CPU was designed to be at 100C under load
 
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 11:16 am

You have a perfectly serviceable GPU atm. I would wait to see how navi pans out (hell, I might even wait it out for intel Xe, unless I HAD to game at 4K. I know you said your use case only supports amd gpus, but if Xe is succesful, it will drag all prices down with it. perhaps there will be a macos driver for it, too, who knows).

If waiting for intel's GPU seems too far away for you, at least wait it out for navi.
 
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 12:07 pm

580 is a perfectly fine GPU so unless it's seriously holding you back from something now I suggest waiting. Note that Radeon VII is fundamentally an old architecture too, it just got shrunk.

One potential spoiler is that cryptocurrency mining is starting to heat up again, so another GPU shortage toward the end of 2019 is a possibility. Same as always, Asian economic instability is leading to a spike in the exchange rates, which (usually, but hasn't started yet) causes big hype and a bunch of people to throw every bit of silicon around them at the latest fadcoin.
 
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 12:20 pm

If you need to upgrade that RX 580. Just get a Vega RX 64, unless you absolutely have a use for 16GiB of VRAM. Radeon VII performs like an aggressively overclocked Vega64/stock 2070-1080Ti just a little short of a 2080 expect in areas where the extra VRAM helps out. Hold out until post-Navi if you something that is significantly faster more than a Vega 64/Radeon VII on the AMD RTG camp.
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 1:01 pm

Radeon VII is stupid, IMO.

It's Vega on a new process node but they've overclocked it so far outside the comfort zone of 7nm that all of the advantages 7nm can bring are completely wasted.

The result is an overpriced, underperforming POS that sucks down so much power it's an embarrassment to both AMD and TSMC. 7nm delivers more speed at the same power draw, or uses less power at the same clockspeed. AMD seem to have taken that and delivered a zero-new-features Vega64 with 1/16th of the die disabled yet consumes more power than a Vega64 and barely manages to run faster than factory-overclocked versions.

8-9% faster than a bone-stock Vega64 for $700? That's pretty weak. If AMD weren't so obsessed with trying (and failing) to match a 2080 they'd have run it at 180W and dialled the clocks back to 1725MHz.

More importantly, wasn't the Vega56 down to $249 recently? Slap the Vega64 BIOS on it, boost to 1600 with 950MHz HBM2 and you'd be forgiven for confusing the performance of Radeon VII for the oft-modded Vega56. If you spent the spare $450 on dedicated watercooling I wouldn't be surprised if the Vega56 ended up faster, too.
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 6:41 pm

Chrispy_ wrote:
The result is an overpriced, underperforming POS that sucks down so much power it's an embarrassment to both AMD and TSMC. 7nm delivers more speed at the same power draw, or uses less power at the same clockspeed. AMD seem to have taken that and delivered a zero-new-features Vega64 with 1/16th of the die disabled yet consumes more power than a Vega64 and barely manages to run faster than factory-overclocked versions.

Funny, mine seems to be pretty competitive with the 2080 and is even better under water. A Vega56/64 isn't even close.
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 7:21 pm

Little Navi (this June) is not expected to exceed Vega 56, so waiting would be a waste of time. Vega 56 is not fast enough to justify the upgrade for you, unless you can sell your current card.

Big Navi is not due till next year, so the 7 is the highest performance you can expect.
 
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 7:28 pm

Waco wrote:
Chrispy_ wrote:
The result is an overpriced, underperforming POS that sucks down so much power it's an embarrassment to both AMD and TSMC. 7nm delivers more speed at the same power draw, or uses less power at the same clockspeed. AMD seem to have taken that and delivered a zero-new-features Vega64 with 1/16th of the die disabled yet consumes more power than a Vega64 and barely manages to run faster than factory-overclocked versions.

Funny, mine seems to be pretty competitive with the 2080 and is even better under water. A Vega56/64 isn't even close.


Radeon VII barely touches the 2080@stock when VRAM capacity isn't a factor. An OC'ed 2080 will distance itself away as far as gaming performance is concerned. Radeon VII only wins in situations where 2080 is VRAM limited. It also pulls a significant lead on its Vega 64/56 predecessors under same load. Radeon VII's merits reside more in its general compute prowess (mainly FP64 on the relative cheap) and memory capacity. It is a poor choice as a pure gaming solution at this time.
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 7:55 pm

 
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 8:05 pm

qmacpoint wrote:
..wait..


-well, unless you have some current imperative reason for more GPU.


I'm expecting Navi to be a replacement to the 500 series, so maybe don't hold-your-hopes on it. :oops:


I kind of wonder why you would need serious GPU performance for MacOS? IF it's content creation then by all means snag a VII for it's memory.
 
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 8:12 pm

defaultluser wrote:
Little Navi (this June) is not expected to exceed Vega 56, so waiting would be a waste of time. Vega 56 is not fast enough to justify the upgrade for you, unless you can sell your current card.

Big Navi is not due till next year, so the 7 is the highest performance you can expect.

Well, aside from all of that being completely based on rumors....

Were it my $700, I’d probably wait the ~3 weeks to be sure.
 
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 9:59 pm

The Egg wrote:
defaultluser wrote:
Little Navi (this June) is not expected to exceed Vega 56, so waiting would be a waste of time. Vega 56 is not fast enough to justify the upgrade for you, unless you can sell your current card.

Big Navi is not due till next year, so the 7 is the highest performance you can expect.

Well, aside from all of that being completely based on rumors....

Were it my $700, I’d probably wait the ~3 weeks to be sure.


AMD wouldn't have bothered releasing the Radeon VII if they had anything on the table that was faster than VEGA 64, and used mainstream 256-bit GDDR6. They would have waited.

AMD loses money on every sale of that card, and developing gaming drivers for it take away from the rest of their engineering efforts. That's how I know Navi is under Vega 64 performance.

You forget, AMD released a 14nm shrink of the Fury X, and called it VEGA 64. The Radeon VII is a 7nm shrink of the very same architecture, but with more dedicated FP64 units. At that point it's just putting lipstick on a pig to bring it to consumer market, and yet they did it.

They could have left it a pro-only card. You don't need damn rumors, you just need LOGIC, my boy.
Last edited by defaultluser on Sun May 19, 2019 10:09 pm, edited 5 times in total.
 
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 10:02 pm

Wait for the next AMD disappointment GPU that promises far more hype than it delivers (like every "top" GPU they've put out for the past decade).
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Sun May 19, 2019 10:49 pm

defaultluser wrote:
The Egg wrote:
Well, aside from all of that being completely based on rumors....

Were it my $700, I’d probably wait the ~3 weeks to be sure.

They could have left it a pro-only card. You don't need damn rumors, you just need LOGIC, my boy.

Sure, because marketing teams always use LOGIC, and everything always goes according to schedule and plan. Hold on for a minute, while I whip out $700 and spend it based on some-guy-on-the-internet’s “logic” rather than waiting a few weeks to see it for myself.

Actually, to test your skills, let’s see if you can use “logic” to figure out how many fingers I’m holding up right now, my boy.
 
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Mon May 20, 2019 7:22 am

Waco wrote:
Chrispy_ wrote:
The result is an overpriced, underperforming POS that sucks down so much power it's an embarrassment to both AMD and TSMC. 7nm delivers more speed at the same power draw, or uses less power at the same clockspeed. AMD seem to have taken that and delivered a zero-new-features Vega64 with 1/16th of the die disabled yet consumes more power than a Vega64 and barely manages to run faster than factory-overclocked versions.

Funny, mine seems to be pretty competitive with the 2080 and is even better under water. A Vega56/64 isn't even close.


Yes, the VII matches a 2080 under certain conditions, but for god's sake don't pretend that it's competitive across the board!

When running a non-RTX, non-DLSS, DX12-specific game engine, at 4K or higher resolutions, such that the additional HMB2 bandwidth is an advantage, a Radeon VII matches a 2080. Unless the game is an Nvidia TWIMTBP title using black-box Nvidia code that cripples AMD performance.

In a more professional test across 21 currently popular modern titles performed by an independent review site, The VII is between a 2070 and 2080 in performance, rarely matching or beating a 2080. In TWIMTBP DX11 titles it can barely compete with a 2070, and although I find the TWIMTBP program abhorrent, a large proportion of games use it, so it's very relevant to the discussion:
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/Radeon_VII/28.html

At best, a Radeon VII matches a 2080 at 1080p, marginally winning at 4K Ultra. These scenarios are few and far between, and in one case (BF V) is unable to run with RTX or DLSS.
At worst, a Radeon VII struggles to come close to even a stock-clocked 2070, losing in several tests to even the GTX 2060 and 1070!


In all cases, there are two question marks hanging over the RX Fury, uh, the RX Vega 64 minus 4, I mean the Radeon Instinct MI50 Radeon VII:
  1. Nvidia's TWIMTBP program sways a much larger number of titles in Nvidia's favour. Nvidia simply dumps more money, time, and effort into this than AMD.
  2. The VII has no ray-tracing, no DLSS, no CUDA support, and inferior MRS/VRS support. None of those things are essential but at $699 for a card, I don't want to be short-changed on features; DLSS and VRS have the potential to be game-changers as screen resolutions continue to climb.

Vega 56 is capable of outperforming Vega 64 stock, and with water can be pushed another 10% higher still. The VII is potentially much faster than even that, because it has more memory bandwidth, but a plethora of independent reviews put it at 15% faster than a Vega 64 when averaged across a large sample size of games and tests. Of course you can always cherry-pick a specific test or scenario where the VII does really well, but that's only relevant if your usage exactly matches that one specific game or workload. The rest of us buy a GPU to run everything as well as possible - including as of yet unrealeased titles on engines yet to be developed.

Either way, If you're prepared to have a large, noisy, power-hungry card in your PC, you will find that an overclocked Vega 56 gets you most of the way - maybe 90% of the way - towards a Radeon VII for for just one-third of the price. That's a real kick in the balls for the VII, IMO, which is why I called it stupid.

Radeon VII is a rebadged workstation compute card with workstation compute RAM that AMD hastily wrote a gaming driver for because they had nothing new to show as a response to the RTX launch. That is all there is to it. If you watch launch-day reviews of the thing you can see that all of the highest-profile reviewers had issues with the rushed drivers, lockups, or inconsistent performance on the Radeon VII: Jayzee 2c, Linus (LTT), Steve Burke (GamersNexus) Richard Leadbetter (DigitalFoundry) all saying that it's a rush job that brings nothing new to the table and does not force Nvidia's hand WRT the insane price hikes of the RTX series over previous generations.
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Aranarth
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Mon May 20, 2019 7:59 am

BTW:

I game using a Radeon rx 580 8gb card and it works just fine...
BUT, to really get good performance out of it at 1920x1080 I had to overlcock my 2600k to 4.5ghz.

Unless you have a really good processor in your mac you probably will not see much improvement with the upgrade.
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Mon May 20, 2019 8:17 am

The "wait for Navi" counter is high these days
 
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Mon May 20, 2019 9:33 am

Navi engineering samples are on a 256-bit GDDR6 bus, and AMD are certainly testing with board power up to 300W since they are using high-end VRM configurations and 2x8-pin connectors.

I would expect, based on rumours and leaks so far, that the range of Navi cards available at launch in Q3 will be designed around a 40 compute-unit die. Based on the size reduction of the 7nm Vega 20 die compared to the GloFo 14nm Vega 10 die, the engineering-sample PCB board only has BGA pads big enough for a 40CU or perhaps a 48CU die to physically fit. That means that a best-case scenario for 2019 Navi cards is going to be a 3072-shader, 256-bit, 8GB GDDR6 model of GCN5 architecture - probably clocked at around 1700MHz boost.

The architectural advantages of GCN5 are unknown but all evidence from discussions and interviews with AMD have pointed to Navi being an incremental improvement rather than a game-changing new architecture, so a 1700MHz 48CU die will likely match Vega64 and if it's only a 40CU die, it'll likely match a Vega56.

AMD never seem to shoot for efficiency, so I would expect the card to use the same power-consumption as an RX580 or Vega56 - taking the "more performance at the same power consumption" option from TSMC's 7nm advantage. Those of us willing to tinker with the BIOS and undervolt/underclock will likely manage to get RX590 performance for under 150W.

This is all speculation on my part, but at least it's not unfounded - using existing data points from AMD interviews, leaked PCB analysis, and existing results of AMD's migration to TSMC's 7nm process; All of those things are verifiable, established starting points for reasonable extrapolation.
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Mon May 20, 2019 10:38 am

sconesy wrote:
The "wait for Navi" counter is high these days

It could potentially bring sense back to the market. Having seen AMD in GPU land lately I doubt it'll be all that, but I'm still waiting to see how it is.

My 1070 is feeling a little inadequate at 1440p with higher details now o.o so I'd love a new card, but we'll see.
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Mon May 20, 2019 11:35 am

Chrispy_ wrote:
Waco wrote:
Chrispy_ wrote:
The result is an overpriced, underperforming POS that sucks down so much power it's an embarrassment to both AMD and TSMC. 7nm delivers more speed at the same power draw, or uses less power at the same clockspeed. AMD seem to have taken that and delivered a zero-new-features Vega64 with 1/16th of the die disabled yet consumes more power than a Vega64 and barely manages to run faster than factory-overclocked versions.

Funny, mine seems to be pretty competitive with the 2080 and is even better under water. A Vega56/64 isn't even close.


Yes, the VII matches a 2080 under certain conditions, but for god's sake don't pretend that it's competitive across the board!
.

I only game at 4K and it's definitely in the "competitive" bracket versus the 2080 there. It certainly gets a pretty great boost from water-cooling as well as using less power under water.

Yes, it changes the price point even more, but a Vega 56/64 water-cooled and overclocked still won't touch a VII, unless the definition of competitive changes suddenly. :P
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Mon May 20, 2019 12:53 pm

Waco wrote:
I only game at 4K and it's definitely in the "competitive" bracket versus the 2080 there. It certainly gets a pretty great boost from *water-cooling as well as using less power under water.


Also, would a typical purchaser want a VII for use with much less than 4k? Of course the other use-case is extremely high frame rates w/ specialty monitors at something lower than 4k.

Depends on what the thread-starter wants to use it for.



*Of course on water is even more specialized, and less likely for an egpu configuration.
 
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Mon May 20, 2019 1:01 pm

Radeon VII is **** :oops: , is barely close to the rtx2080 8) . I doubt if navi will turn the tables for AMD :roll: . I suggest pc builders & gamers stick to Nvidia. They are the best when it comes to power draw & performance :D
 
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Mon May 20, 2019 1:05 pm

Vega 56 is the ideal price/performance, but Vega64 makes sense if you want more absolute performance IMO. Radeon VII certainly is even faster, but it just makes less sense cause you're spending a lot more money for not quite as much performance. I doubt Navi will be much better than Vega64, based on the rumors.

Radon VII has some interesting double-precision float performance. If you're doing custom-compute shaders, it looks like a very good deal. Programmers open to learning GPU-compute probably should be considering something like Radeon VII, due to its huge memory and bandwidth. Obviously, you can only get good Tensorflow drivers from NVidia right now, but programming is far larger than just neural networks.

Soooo... Radeon VII for compute programmers, maybe Blender rendering. Vega56 or Vega64 otherwise.
 
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Re: Radeon VII or wait for Navi?

Mon May 20, 2019 1:22 pm

LostCat wrote:
sconesy wrote:
The "wait for Navi" counter is high these days

It could potentially bring sense back to the market. Having seen AMD in GPU land lately I doubt it'll be all that, but I'm still waiting to see how it is.

My 1070 is feeling a little inadequate at 1440p with higher details now o.o so I'd love a new card, but we'll see.


Waiting is smart right now. Prices for anything beyond the RTX 2060/Vega 56/1070 bracket are irrationally high relative to the extra performance gained by upgrading. It's doubtful you'd be able to sell your 1070 for a reasonable percentage of its worth, because the resale market's still flooded with mining cards. It's messy, and with Bitcoin being used for another pump 'n' dump scheme inflating in value again, things aren't likely to get more stable in the near term.
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